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The real utility scaling.

NinjaFifer··1 votes·562 views

http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/z9rEKG0R-xypherous-how-to-solve-the-support-cdr-crunch

I was responding to another person's post, linked above, and I actually came to the realization that Riot should have taken another approach to their attempt at utility scaling, by buffing the maximum CDR allowed, specifically targeting support characters. My response and logic path are quoted below. I really like the idea of making items that give increases to max CDR, while providing no other damage stats.

The thing about increasing max CDR, is that it then takes more items to take advantage of that. It takes dedication to CDR to abuse it, so giving an item with tank stats and +MaxCDR should not become appealing to top laners, or might actually bring previously under-appreciated items, like Stark's/Zeke's (whatever it's name is now) into the meta. Ryze might become a problem with his ability to scale harder off CDR than any other champ, but that can be addressed later.

In closing, I feel that adding items with +MaxCDR stats. or reworking current items to include +MaxCDR (such as the changes to the current gold generation support items in the linked discussion above) would give supports the true utility scaling they were supposed to get.

"Alright, here's the reasoning. Given:

  1. Traditional supports are primarily valued on how much utility they can bring on their abilities.

  2. If we ignore "utility scaling," the majority of utility comes from base ability numbers.

  3. CDR allows you to use more abilities in a given timeframe.

Therefore, for supports: CDR = Utility.

With that, we can assume:

  1. AP gives you damage.

  2. CDR gives you utility.

  3. Health and resistances give you survivability.

  4. Survivability allows you to keep dealing damage/applying utility.

  5. Utility amplifies all ALLIED damage, via enemies not being able to kill allies or directly buffing them.

  6. You have more allies than you have of yourself.

Given this we can make the following assumptions:

  1. Amplifying your own damage through AP will not be as effective as amplifying your allies' damage through utility.

  2. Amplifying your survivability past that of your allies' will cause you to outlive them, at which point you are amplifying, through utility, only yourself.

Therefore: Building survivability over CDR as a support is not as effective as building CDR over survivability. The same can be said of AP. "

6 Comments

Sneak Dog1 votes

Do NOT increase the max cdr because then you simply create stunbots. Currently, utility comes from cdr, but also from item passives. Just nerf the cdr of supportive items and you have more utility. The main issue this may create is that supports just have these set builds from the start to the end of the game of which items to take to cap cdr with and then have max non-cdr utility items.

Another point is, how do you restrict these items to supports? Tons of champions with cc would love to just spam out their cc even harder. Plonk one in mid or top and you can't control their item build.

NinjaFifer1 votes

At best, even the champs with stuns on basic abilities might be able to throw down 2 stuns per fight. I'm not talking U.R.F. levels of CDR, but maybe pushing it up to 60% at best, with serious dedication to CDR itemization. I also have a problem with having so many actives on items. They are cool, but requiring someone to be able to hit 12 different buttons, exactly when they need to, is overly complicated. Not only that, but I feel that there's a good number of solid item actives in the game right now. Allowing supports to run even more CC/Buff item actives would allow for even more CC overload than just extra CDR would provide.

Personally, I really like the idea of giving the gold gen items one set of +10%MaxCDR, and putting in one other item, that would be generally useful, or even support oriented (Sightstone upgrade?), to max out the MaxCDR at 60%, and make it pretty much only supports that can use these items without major sacrifices elsewhere.

Sneak Dog1 votes

Thing is, the difference between 40% cdr and 60% is that those last '20%' drop the cooldowns of your abilities from 60% to 40%, which is one-third off of the minimum cooldown on live currently, this makes cc downtimes really low.

  • Gragas bodyslam goes from 4.2s to 1.8s due to the flat reset. 0.8s stun downtime.
  • Alistar pulverize, a 2.5s disable (of which 1.5s is a stun), goes from 7.8s to 5.2, it goes from 5.3s downtime to 2.7s.
  • Leona gets her immobilize from 5.4s to 3.6 and her 1.25s stun from 4.2s to 2.8s, meaning she could stun, immobilize and stun again, then wait 2s, repeat.
  • Lulu polymorphs you ever 7.2s currently, giving 4.7s downtime, you change this to 4.8s for 2.3s downtime.
  • Zileans ultimates minimum cooldown goes from 29.2s to 14.6s.

Cooldown reduction is a curious thing, unlike any other stat in League of Legends, it stacks with itself, this means you do NOT take fiddling with the cap lightly, it messes up balance immensely.

Explanation of why it scales with itself: Say, you have 1 attack per second and 0% crit. Every point of attack damage increases your dps by 1, regardless of how much ad you have.

Imagine, you have an ability dealing 100 damage with 10s cooldown, 10 dps. You buy 20% cdr, it now casts 100 damage every 8 seconds, 12.5 dps. You buy another 20% cdr and you now cast 100 damage every 6s, 16.7 dps. You bought 20% both times, but got 2.5 dps the first time and 4.2 dps the second.

NinjaFifer1 votes

Fair enough, your math makes sense. In that case, a 10% increase would do nicely for the intended purpose, and having it specifically be on the three gold gen support items prevents abuse and other lane's using them. When combined, then, with a nerf to some of the CDR's on other support items, it wouldn't be as easy to fill that extra 10%. I still believe that AP utility scaling wasn't a good way to go about the issue*, and still believe that increasing CDR cap would be a better way to give supports more utility itemization.

Item actives are very nice, but plenty exist already. Overloading on item actives creates a huge skill disparity between those of us who can manage 12 individual abilities, and those who can't.

*Especially when they nerfed the utility of a champion just to find a place to fit it in. Specifically, when they rolled it out, Lulu got a straight nerf to her slow speed until she built 400 AP.

2dsystem1 votes

I really don't think that putting them on the support items would keep them from being used in other lanes, it would just be what the Spectral Wraith was when it had spell vamp. It didn't matter that it had damage that couldnt even be used in the lane, the other stats it offered were so good, that those who normally would buy WOTA would buy this instead, and with good results. A jungle item, an item not meant to be taken anywhere but the jungle, was taken in lanes. If something like cdr cap extension was brought into the game, no matter what items, everyone whos spells are a bit part of their damage would be chomping at the bit for this item.

Supports as they are are in a good place right now. They have good itemization, with a decent variety of supports who offer a decently balanced amount of damage and utility, with arguably the highest income in the game. But supports shouldnt be made into carries, because there are already carries for that. those are my 2 cents

NinjaFifer1 votes

I don't agree at all with your statement that supports can be argued to have the highest income in the game. That's a discussion for another thread, though. The thing about the jungler items was that they were too good. Lizard was 5 more AD than a BF Sword, 10% CDR, and true damage DOT for only 450 more gold. That was most definitely overpowered, and was not at all unexpected to end up in lane. These support items, on the other hand, do not have those high stats. Face of the Mountain, probably the most egregious offender, would only really offer 500 health and +10%MaxCDR, plus the active shield. Good, but I really don't see bruisers itemizing that high of CDR and still remaining viable. Frost queen has even worse gold efficiency, but an easier CDR itemization. Still, I have no doubt that you'd get more damage off of a Deathcap/Void Staff/DFG, whatever didn't make it into your build after building 50% CDR and Frost Queen.

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