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Missing the Tree for the Forest: A Maokai Discussion

Archainis·5/29/2014, 10:04:18 PM·5 votes·1,836 views

Hey all, as a long time player who enjoys playing tank junglers and an aspiring game designer, I wanted to start a discussion on why I think Maokai is a good candidate for a gameplay update. While it may seem like tank junglers in general are doing badly, I think Maokai is used as the flagship for that because he's particularly unsatisfying.

As we discuss, let's try to be mindful of a few things:

  1. Other players may have different experienecs and perceptions of Maokai's role and position in the meta--and that's ok! We're having this discussion so that -everyone- can be represented.

  2. Mentioning something here doesn't mean it will happen, and conversely requesting something not be changed doesn't necessarily mean it's immune to tweaks. Playtesting may provide Riot some insights that they would want to act upon, and it would be impractical to require that they share that on the forums every time.

Archetype and Thematic

Since gameplay updates are about archetype and thematic fits (not power levels), I'd like to start this discussion by talking about how Maokai's current archetype and thematic are already understood by players. By discussing the aspects of Maokai's thematics and archetype here we can mention the parts we find important to Maokai's character, so that they're less likely to be overlooked during the rework process.

In my opinion, Maokai's thematic is that of the vengeful force of nature. There's a little bit of the contemplation of life and a lot of "Tremble and beware, ye puny champions, for you know not what you disturb!". Yet, at the same time, the scariness that Maokai is supposed to represent should not be centered on the champion himself, but from his zone of control, his environment. A well played Maokai should feel like he always knows what's going on in his jungle (E) and that he can reach (W) and put a stop to almost everything (R + Q).

Gameplay

Back when Maokai was released, his niche was being like 1 of 5 champions with the "capable of jungling" attribute. Now that the jungle has been opened up (which is awesome), Maokai may need some help sticking out of the crowd.

Even though Maokai's iconic for Sapling Toss (E), or even Vengeful Maelstrom (R), you don't max out either of those first. Instead you max Arcane Smash (Q), which is probably Maokai's least remarkable ability. I've seen this dissonance throw off many a new Maokai player, and I think it contributes to not feeling like the kit is cohesive.

Suggestion

With that in mind, here's my suggestion of how to change Maokai's kit to address this:

Q: Arcane Smash

Maokai releases a magical shockwave from his position, dealing magic damage and knocking back nearby enemies.

So instead of knocking back nearby enemies and slowing everyone else, this ability now knocks back everyone in an area around Maokai (a mini Xin ult).

The width and travelspeed of the old projectile more or less removed the skillshot aspects of this ability. While the removal of the slow makes it a little less reliable, the addition of a more usable knock back effect opens up opportunites for more skill expression and interaction.

W: Twisted Advance

Maokai dissolves into a cloud of arcane energies, becoming untargetable. He regrows near a target enemy, dealing damage and rooting it in place.

It's always been a little confusing whether this ability was intended to have untargetability or not, some ability text errata mention it, and others don't. Personally, despite it looking weird on a tank I think it's a good addition, giving Maokai another option to survive and maneuver teamfights. I think it's less likely to cause frustration (compared to Fizz or Vlad) because it's a fairly short duration that also (usually) deposits you next to the enemy champions. Besides, most people think it does this now anyway and don't seem to have a problem with it. :P

It should also be noted that the damage on this ability is incredibly hard to appreciate (the snare and gap closer are always going to be more visceral), so that's a good place for compensation nerfs.

E: Sapling Toss

Maokai flings a sapling that deals magic damage in an area and slows on impact. The sapling then grants vision of the nearby area until it spots an enemy, which it then attacks with a slowing arcane blast.

This is where the slow on Q went. The rational behind this is that the interaction that was intended to be present with this ability really drops off quickly as opponent champions stop caring about taking 80 magic damage more than compromising their positioning. I also like this because it raises the stakes of trying to land the sapling while chasing an opponent, but gives them the opportunity to escape by evading it.

Also, is it just me, or do Elise's Volatile Spiderlings feel more reliable than the saplings?

Innate: Sap Magic

Each time a spell is cast near Maokai he draws energy from it, gaining a charge of Magical Sap. When Maokai has 5 charges his next basic attack heals him for 7% of his max HP.

R: Vengeful Maelstrom

Maokai shields his allies by drawing power from hostile spells and attacks, reducing non-tower damage done to allied champions in the area. When Maokai ends the effect, he unleashes the absorbed energy to deal damage to enemies within the vortex.

Aside from numbers tweaks, these abilities seem to be pulling their weight mechanically. If you really wanted to buff them, I would probably make the amount Sap Magic heals scale with level and increase the range on Vengeful Maelstrom, but it's probably unnecessary. I would like to note that it'd be awesome for the swirly thing in the middle of Maokai's ult to grow as the ult stores more damage.

TLDR: Maokai's kit has this weird dissonance in it, his thematic tie-ins are fairly weak, and he's in a somewhat awkward place in terms of lore, so it seems like Maokai is a strong candidate for some attention.

16 Comments

ChaosThief5/29/2014, 11:17:21 PM2 votes

I feel that building tank isn't exactly reliable, as you have very little damage on your own, excluding ult and sapling, but his mana costs just knock him out of being played anywhere. It's absurdly huge, and a waste of time if you want to jungle or fight with abilities.

A mana cost reduction would go a long way.

Michicha5/30/2014, 8:00:57 PM2 votes

Maoki needs some love and we all know it. Riot is still working on their fighter project (AKA, the one to give all fighter's a proper identity, like support changes). My guess is that they'll take a look at tanks and use Braum as a mold for what tanks in LoL should be doing. Not all tanks have to necessarily absorb damage the same way. SOme could be like Warwick, AKA Drain tanks, who deal damage in order to be tanky, which is higher risk, higher reward. Others are more utility initiate tanks, or champions that are bulky and offer a lot of CC, but still absorb a good amount of damage. Other tanks are support tanks, which can or cant initiate, but have more supportive forms of CC and effects than initiating CC effects. Riot needs to clearly define what direction they want to take Maoki, and it may involve more changes then the ones you proposed. That said, i think the changes you mentioned would be a nice improvement to Maoki, but I believe it wouldn't help him much in the long run.

Tortunga5/31/2014, 12:11:47 AM2 votes

I agree with yagsileba on Maokai; Riot needs to decide what directioc they want to take him. A supp/tank jungler sounds to me as the most obvious choice as most of his abilities are already focused on that.

As for your suggested changes i'm not entirely sure what direction you want to take Maokai. Changing the slow from his Q to his E gives him better chase and caughting people potential but gives him worse teamfight potential (Q has a much larger effect area then E). Seeing that most of his abilities are team fight focused (his ult is completely team fight focused) changing a team fight focused aspect to a different one sounds as a wierd choice.

I would focus on the abilities that has almost none teamfight orientating; His passive and the saplings. His passive is amazing for in the jungle, but is just a wierd passive for Makoai; He isn't a fighter/drain tank like WW/Mundo that dishes out some significant damage if left alone. His damage is just to low for that. His sapplings is in the same spot as his passive really; Its nice for jungling to clear and "ward" his jungle but it doesn't really bring anything to team fights except some damage.

If changing Maokai was up to me I would change his passive that it heals the most injured team member around him for 7% of Maokai's maximum health. A simpel change that doesn't change anything when he is junling (or he needs to be close to a team member) but gives him an extra push in the more supp/tank aspect during team fights.

As for his saplings i would add an extra effect to it that it becomes more then just a damage spell, a spell you want to aim at there most dangerous member in team fights. Mabye reducing there damage done, increasing there damage taken or reducing there AA/ability range. Because it has a delay between landing and running/exploding it could create an interesting battle between you trying to hit there adc/apc and there supp/tank trying to absorb the effect of the sapling.

I feel that these two changes in combination with a mana reduction on his abilities and the plans Riot got to get tank/supp jungler back in the meta overall should bring Maokai in a good spot (or atleast better then he is now).

FruitVendor6/8/2014, 4:11:49 AM2 votes

I like the idea of these changes. If these were to happen; I feel like the damage he does early with his q-w-e combo should do a little more than live, but scale to the same points as live. Also keeping the mana costs a bit lower than live too. Another thought is how long the saplings will last. I think having them with a 30 sec cool down is too low with the idea of having saplings scout for possible ganks and keeping team mates safe, but i also feel like a minute would be too long. Instead of a flat amount why not have the time scale with rank; maybe to like 45 secs? That way it gives the option of leveling any ability depending on the players playstyle. Also with mao's ult; does it not absorb tirret damage on live? I think having them have a reduced abosorbtion for turret damage would be an appealing way to go; instead of having no damage reduction on turret shots at all. This way dives will be way more successful. I think of mao is that he's a tanky ultility jungler that offers great amount of help with scouting and dives, but lacks on his 1v1. He also has the ult and cc lock down for any squishy champs that needs his help

the Anarchit3cht5/30/2014, 9:30:29 PM1 votes

Maokai is in a really bad spot, I have a lot of ideas for him that I'd think improve him immensely. Regard this as a placeholder for now.

Sire Hippington6/1/2014, 6:37:35 PM1 votes

I don't think he needs any changes to his kit, it would be enough if he wouldn't be that manahungry. Giving some manasustain on his passive would be a fine way to solve his mana issues.

Another thing he needs is scaling MR. He's a damn melee Tank, and his lore and also his passive define him as an Antimage in some way, so why does stay on 30mr all game?