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Fighter-Fighter interactions are lame

SmokingPuffin·11/20/2013, 6:08:45 PM·1 votes·530 views

Note - this is a crosspost from GD. I want to test whether I get better discussion on this beta or in GD.

I used to think that top lane was lame because of its placement on the map. It's a long lane, far away from the action, and so it tends to be a 1v1 for a long time.

That's not really my problem with top lane, though. My beef with top lane is really with the kind of champions that play in it: fighters. You see, when two mages face off in the mid lane, a kill doesn't end the lane. If Syndra first bloods LeBlanc, LeBlanc can conceivably win a 1v1 by juking a key skillshot or making good trades in lane. Mage-mage interaction is rich in play/counterplay, as are marksman-marksman interaction and assassin-assassin interactions, for the most part.

Fighters, though, are a different story. When one fighter gets ahead of another, there's very little way for the behind fighter to win a trade, and most fighter kits don't have skillshots to juke. Fighter-fighter lane interactions mostly turn on statistical battles, and the player with more gold almost always wins those.

The result here is that a Riven/Renekton lane is fundamentally different than that Syndra/LeBlanc lane. If Riven first bloods Renekton, the only way Renekton can really outplay Riven is by baiting Riven into a gank; there's simply no levers in Renekton's kit that allow him to win trades against Riven's very similar kit. When everyone has a gap closer, a stun, and some targeted damage tools, the guy with the superior stats wins the lane.

I don't really know how to fix this, but I'm pretty sure this is why top lane is so obnoxiously snowbally. It's not so much that the lane itself creates snowballing; it's that top lane is the fighter lane and fighters don't interact well with each other. When we were playing Jayce vs Kennen in the top lane, first blood didn't end that lane the way it does when you have two fighters matched up.

tl;dr Nerf Irelia; fighter-fighter matchups have lame counterplay.

5 Comments

Solan Stonewhip11/20/2013, 7:16:36 PM2 votes

huh. i always liked top lane. i always felt it was like a duel on an island and in a way the outcome of that duel decided the fate of the game far more than the other lanes. that's not strictly speaking true. but i always liked solo lanes more htan duo.

but you make an interesting point. fighter on fighter doesn't have the same level of counterplay as other matchups. for the record i disagree to a certain extent. you can give up first blood and come back in top lane. it depends on your matchup and how trolly your champion is (effing singed) but you're not wrong on one level. some of those fighter matchups lack counterplay.

part of this has to do with item paths - which were pretty limited for fighters in S3. now they're changing that a bit but who knows if it will be ready by S4. they haven't even discussed those changes as far as i know.

part of the issue is metagame too. being forced to send a fighter top lane is part of the meta. not an actual thing. personally i love lane swapping and sending my duo lane top to pummel their top lane. not everyones cool with that though.

DarkLordArbitur11/22/2013, 8:30:04 AM1 votes

Warwick throw him up there. he has his gap closing ult, which stuns, his steroid, which causes him to absorb health due to increased attack speeds at absolutely insane rates, his damage dealer, which absorbs MORE health...at the end of the day, youll have the other fighter running, and thats where his last skill, the speed boost, comes in...because then he chases him down and finishes the job.

lojician7/20/2014, 8:57:27 AM1 votes

Or maybe you're just bad at top lane. Believe it or not there are meaningful laning interactions apart from "dodge the skillshot". I like how you say "or make a good trade in lane" as if this is somehow impossible to do with fighters.