Fizz and Riot's View on Counterplay.

MasterofSFL··14 votes·3,052 views

It's be said over and over throughout the pass view years that Riot enjoys counter-play, that they look at it as an important part of both a character's design as well as a player's ability to find and exploit weaknesses in their opponent. We can source many nerfs, changes or complete destruction of skills, items and playstyles based on the simple idea that everything should have a meaningful weakness.

Then we have characters like Fizz.

Now before we go any further, this isn't an OP thread, it's about how Fizz's kit has a lack of counter-play overall, making it difficult if not impossible to gain an advantage or even playing field against him.

There are three main reasons counter-play against Fizz is low:

  1. His Damage is Upfront

  2. Mobility

  3. His Damage is Over-tuned

The most glaring and obvious lack of counter-play is a player's inability to escape Fizz's damage. Unlike most other Assassins (Shaco, LeBlanc, Zed, ect) who's Gapclosers are either Moderate to Low damage (Depending on your combo), Fizz's Gapcloser allows Fizz to not only close the distance between him and his target it also accounts for a very hefty portion of his Damage.

The full damage readout of an Urchin Strike is as Follows: 10-130 (+ 60% AP) + AD

When you take into account Seastone Trident's Passive:

10-130 (+ 60% AP) + AD + {(30-70 [+ 35% AP])/3}

And When you Activate Seastone Trident: 10-130 (+ 60% AP) + AD + {(30-70 [+ 35% AP])/3} +10-30 (+ 25% AP)

All Together it looks like this (Please Pardon if my Equation is slightly off, it's the idea that matters most): 10-130 + AD + 3[10-23 + (11.6%AP)] + 10-30 + (85% AP)

In just one move Fizz is able to both close the distance between him and his target and Dish out Roughly 50-230 points of Damage plus Over 100% of AP in damage. Now the damage looks meager when you look at it out of context with his entire Kit, but as the game progresses and Fizz gains more and more AP, His first hit becomes much more powerful, allowing him to chunk health bars simply by Jumping to someone.

In lane this creates an incredibly frustrating dynamic, in order for most champions to make a move on Fizz, they will be within a reasonable range for Fizz to Jump to. When you consider that Fizz can easily front most of his harassment/damage (and close distance) with one ability and in such a small time frame, you realize that any trade you make against him will require very quick timing and possibly an additional spell to escape or out damage him.

This leads into his mobility. While it is the first hit that makes Fizz scary, it's his free range of the lane (and battlefield) that makes him dangerous. With Two Gap Closers and 1(3) escape(s), Fizz would already compete with most other champions as "the most mobile," but then you add in his passive and things get wonky. Being unhindered by minions in lane means that the natural barriers that typically impede players from freely interacting with one another are rendered null against Fizz. This makes Zoning Fizz through Minion Control impossible, as he can easily bypass a wall of minions and move straight to you without having to use Playful to do it.

This simple passive gives Fizz an distinct advantage, as his one true escape can be saved. It means that Fizz can simply walk into range at any given opportunity and attack, then fall back with little consequence. It makes it difficult to be anywhere within the vicinity of Fizz, as you can not rely on your minions to act as a wall between you and Him and block him as you harass.

Then there is Playful. We already talked about Fizz front loading his damage, but it is the fact that he can Front Load it and then leave almost immediately (and safely) that makes playing against Fizz a true pain. With a good chunk of damage loaded onto one skill, Fizz can freely jump to someone, Chunk them, then Jump away, all before he can be targeted (and if he is, it breaks). This leaves his opponents unable to make a meaningful play against Fizz, at all, all but the most tankiest champions have trouble dealing with a prolonged barrage of this.

And that is one of the reasons his damage is over-tuned. For Fizz, dealing a large portion of his Damage is not hard, because of the Front Loading ability of Urchin Strike, but then his other two Skills (Chum and Trickster) both have a Combined 175% AP, as well as decent bases and tons of versatility packed into them.

Chum is unimpeded by obstacles, Slows/knocks-up, has a Large range and creates an area of control. Playful/Trickster is both a Gapcloser and an Escape, as well as a Nuke.

The fact that Fizz, once 6, can at any time initiate a fight on a target makes Chum incredibly powerful for an assassin, but then you take into consideration that it also makes it impossible to fight back against Fizz, who already has an arsenal of Mobility and Damage. Once hit, a champion for the next 2.5 Seconds essentially is unable to do anything, between the speed of Urchin Strike, the Untargetability of Playful and the Knockup of Chum, all combine to create a moment of complete invulnerability for Fizz (in a 1v1). The damage from all 4 skills is almost guaranteed to kill any non-tank champion that's taken even a little bit of damage.

Fizz's entire kit is counter to the idea of counter-play Riot. Players have very few opportunities to exploit Fizz's natural weaknesses (Low Health Pool, Melee), due to His Zhonya's-esq ability to nullify damage and high mobility. On top of this, Players, once caught by his Ult, have very little chance to fight back for these very same reasons. And on top of that, the damage output by Fizz alone is so quick and large that in most cases he is able to overpower you simply by existing. I have no included Items in this discussion up to this point for simplicities, but when we consider Core Items like Zhonya's and Lich Bane, it becomes apparent there is a problem.

Fizz needs to have his power shifted into one area or another, while having his overall power leveled out in order to make room for players to exploit his weaknesses, I prefer to keep to his strength and identity as a slippery champion who darts around the battlefield. This can take the form of reducing the Damage of Trickster and Chum, making it so that Fizz must put some damage on someone before he can initiate an assassination. Lower the range on Chum, forcing Fizz to be closer to his target in order to force a fight. Lastly, remove the slow on Chum, but increase it on Trickster, making Chum less of a "I GOTCHA/GET AWAY FROM ME!" Spell, and more a tool to create an opening.

Various powershifts, such as increasing the Bleed damage (Base and Ratio) on Trident, The base range of Playful (Equally lowered on Trickster) and lowering the cooldown on Urchin can push Fizz to be a more Hit and Run champion that relies on Positioning, good timing and tactics instead of a steamroller who picks and chooses when someone must die. Doing this gives players the opportunity to react to Fizz, by stretching out his damage and removing a lot of control Fizz previously had as well as being to push Fizz into a new direction that flushes out his identity by focusing on his ability to dart and dodge, be slippery and hard to catch

50 Comments

Gypsyleeboy4 votes

This makes me want top play fizz ;p

Everyone has a counter, but I'll agree. Fizz early game is scary.. And if fed early, then fizz late game is also scary.

The main champions that counter fizz just so happen to not be as popular as a jinx or a ziggz. Characters like Ryze are a powerful counter, and also diana who kicks most ap melee champions down the mountain.

IMO, his E should only make one jump, since his Q already dashes toward minions or champions. And his ultimate should deal less damage than it does. If fizz has 800 AP late game his ult is doing over 1200 damage. Give or take some items, mid game his ult is still doing about 700+ damage.

Fizz ultimate should only scale on 50% AP.. INSTEAD OF 100% and maybe just make the slow at 70% all levels.

MasterofSFL8 votes

It's not about "who counters who," that in itself is not counter-play. Counter-play is a player's ability to actively play, and win, against a player/champion/playstyle/strategy using superior tactics and overall play. Currently your best chance of playing against Fizz is putting him on complete lock down, as no other method will work.

This is by definition a lack of counter-play.

He has too much utility packed into his kit and before we take a bat to his damage, these must be addressed. Being able to zone someone with little fear of retribution is the main problem here. A lowered Second Jump, removed slow and lessened range on Chum would change Fizz in of itself, forcing him to make full use of his first jump and land his Trickster in order to ensure the slow.

Marthian4 votes

I agree, Fizz's kit is simply overloaded for an assassin. *Damage reduction against his favored targets (unnecessary considering he can blow ADCs up before they can do enough damage for the passive to mean anything.) *A ton of mobility and gap-closer (one making him untargetable.) *Grievous Wounds (going to be taking more damage per second than you can heal pretty much.) *Ease of applying on-hit effects (painful ones at that.) *His ult does so much: a 1.0AP nuke, heavy slow that turns into a knockup, and then nukes nearby allies and slows them.

FyshinaTux1 votes

Damage reduction against his favored targets... let's break this down for a second.

Fizz's passive blocks 4/6/8/10/12/14 damage from auto attacks, increasing along that scale every few levels. So, let's look at AD Carries now, they start the game (usually) with around 59 AD if you facter in the Doran's Blade (using Lucian's lvl 1 stats), Fizz has 20.1 Armor at lvl 1, effectively reducing "Lucian"s damage by 16.7% (if my math is accurate). Which means that his 59 AD will be hitting for 49.15 damage after the armor, and 45.15 damage after her passive. Lucian is still doing 75% damage to Fizz, and that isn't even including Runes/Masteries that would up the damage even more.

I would HARDLY say that this is "damage reduction against her (Fizz is a chick, Riot messed up the lore) favored target". It's more useful as a "I can trade with you in lane and not take as much minion damage" than it is "damage reduction against her favored target".

You're just trying to make her sound as OP as possible by not fully understanding her kit, and throwing out random things, her Armor does more damage reduction at level 1 than her passive. Heck, even end game, a Marksman can 2 or 3 shot Fizz, but it's ok, fizz is OP because her passive blocked 42 damage out of the three auto attacks that did a combined 2k+. ;)

Also, the scaling got nerfed a while back on the on-hit portion of his W. Still a bit painful, but already been nerfed...

Marthian2 votes

What Fizz is going to attack an ADC level 1?

Marksman can't 2 or 3 shot if fizz just invuln bursted onto their face. And they can't even 2 or 3 shot late game unless their draven (and even then still not) 2 or 3 shot is a over-estimate of how much damage a carry does.

FyshinaTux
  1. I've been 3 shot at level 18 by an ADC when I was Fizz. Bad decisions were made on my part, but it still happened, and I had 4 items built, working on my final item. So yes, a late game ADC CAN 3 shot a late game Fizz.

  2. The level 1 info was just there as easy math to prove a point...

  3. You really need to read up on this Crit RNG that people are complaining about all over the place. ;)

Marthian2 votes
  1. Bad plays =/= it's ok he can do this. (Did you not have Zhonya's?)

  2. Theory crafting isn't the same as real scenarios.

  3. Crit RNG has nothing to do with Fizz. Any good fizz (almost all of them) complete their combo fast and as an adc, you can't do jack until the last second (and you're already dead by then that 2 or 3 lucky crits will help.

If you have Zhonya's and armor runes, it takes more than 3 shots to kill Fizz. Assuming all yellow armor runes, Zhonya's, and level 18, Fizz has about 156~ armor. Math: 800 damage X ~.51 armor damage reduction (after pen) = ~406 damage At this point his passive doesn't do much, but it still takes more than 3 shots to kill a fed Fizz.

FyshinaTux

To kill a FED Fizz. Now you're implying a condition as well. Not every Fizz gets fed. Simply put, there are too many variables to distinctly pin down ANY kind of Scenario. You could have tank fizz, bruiser fizz, (cringe) support... fizz (yes, I've seen her as a support before... ruined my Bronze I to Silver V Promos the first time round...)

You could have an optimal build Fizz or inoptimal build Fizz, same goes with the ADC, you say Fizz is fed? What if the ADC is fed? What if the ADC has Magic Pen Runes, What if Fizz doesn't have Runes? All we can do is narrow it down with best guess, and assume they're both running optimal runes with optimal builds (which simply isn't the case the majority of the time outside of Diamond). Anything past that, and we have to assume equal CS and equal kills.

As for my "bad decision"? I tried to burst the enemy support who I thought was alone (we didn't have wards, I'll lay some blame on me there because I could easily have bought a ward myself). ADC came out of the bush, and 3 shot me while my Q and E were on CD. So yes, ADC CAN 3 shot a fizz... oh, and in the game I'm referencing, we were pretty well even on CS and kills, he was up 1 kill (before I killed the support), and I was up ~13 CS.

Fusion3223 votes

Fizz has no counterplay, playful/trickster should be removed from the game.

ProfDrDeath4 votes

If anything, P/T should not drop tower aggro, nor be immune to towershots. That change alone would make Fizz more bearable.

Couple it with the changes in the OP, and Fizz gets a lot less rage-inducing to deal with.

MarhsallLee672 votes

The counterplay to Fizz is not wasting your abilities until he wastes his.

Skias3 votes

Then you die doing nothing.

MarhsallLee672 votes

It seems like I'm the only person here who has no problem going against a fizz.

It is painfully obvious when a Fizz is about to try to all-in you, as his q range is not that great. If he gets within range, it is possible to CC him mid-q if you have good timing (so long as it's instant-cc such as ahri's charm, lux's snare, etc.). If they lead off with E, they have no escape and either burn flash to try to get away or you take the opportunity to take out a good chunk of his health.

His ult is a pretty narrow skillshot and is really not that hard to dodge if you have considerable experience going up against skillshot-reliant champions like blitz, thresh, or nidalee.

Ahri vs Fizz, for example, is basically a guaranteed win if you can land your charm- you can use your ultimate to dodge his e/r (or get back to safety if he lands his ult, forcing him to either dive you or back off) and charm him mid-q (to do so only requires quick reflexes, as it should be easy to hit a target that's coming straight for you).

I've also had good experience against Fizz as Diana- her shield can negate quite a bit of damage while dealing some back, and the double-dash you can get on your ultimate is an amazing gap-closer if he tries to escape on his troll pole.

But, in general, so long as you don't use your crowd control until after his troll pole goes on cooldown and you can keep your distance and keep him poked down, it really is not that difficult to beat fizz in lane.

MasterofSFL2 votes

This is the age old "just CC them" arguement. Here's why it's wrong, especially in a discussion about about counterplay. It's such a broad blanket statnent that it can be theoretically used in any situation, completely disregarding whatever problems are there.

Yes, you can, with very very quick timing, nab any dashing champion with a CC skillshot. That's not the point. The point is that is you should be able to actively act against Fizz, work on exploiting weaknesses and abusing then. Nailing him with a difficult shot mid dash and waiting for him to blow his entire kit before you can or should do anything against him is not counterplay.

MarhsallLee671 votes

If it can theoretically be used in any situation to shut down a champion, why is it wrong?

There are some match-ups that are just flat-out going to be a hell of a lot harder if you don't have any cc and/or your jungler isn't able to do a whole lot.

Fizz's weakness is that 50% of his mobility relies on an enemy target. So, if he's running away from you, all he has is his troll pole, which has a fairly long cooldown. If you are able to stay far enough away that he can't use his q on you, but you are still able to poke him down consistently, he's going to have a hell of a hard time killing you when a good chunk of his health is missing and you're near your tower.

It's like playing against heimerdinger- it just takes patience. If you go all in on heimer at level 3, chances are, you're going to get killed almost instantly by a combination of his stun, missles, and turrets. It's the same basic concept when you're playig against a Fizz.

FyshinaTux1 votes

Actually, that IS the very DEFINITION of counterplay. How do you counter Katarina? Same bloody way, you wait for her to ult, then you CC her before she gets a kill/resets and she's screwed. It's the EXACT same thing.

MasterofSFL3 votes

Except it's not and I find it incredible that people think it is.

Katarina doesn't have any escapes under most situations once she's in her ult, Various other characters have no escapes at all, so when they are CC'd, when you blast off a snare or stun at them, they die. What about the ones who can dodge it, block it, break it, lessen it? Fizz, Nocturn, Alistar, Irelia. How does "CC Them" work in this situation? You have to layer it, like crazy, from multiple different people in most cases just to get one through.

Saying "CC them" is a way to counter ANYONE is a piss poor argument because while anyone can be CC'd, and die, others take so much more to get to that point that in some cases it takes entire teams to make it happen. That's why it's not counter-play, because it's not an obvious, exploitable weakness, as this weakness is covered by something within someone's kit making it harder abuse.

FyshinaTux1 votes

Yes, and the big argument is "her Ult plus her E chunk the entire enemy team to near half health", which is not accurate in the least. Sure, it'll chunk the squishies well enough, but the fact remains, if she uses her ult AND his troll pole for damage... she. has. no. escapes.

It's that simple, you say it's not the same as katarina, yet you just said she has no escapes, and with her Troll Pole on CD, her only potential escape is to hope she's lined up properly for a Q out, which can EASILY be CC'd.

The Lexer2 votes

As a Fizz main I can tell you once he dives on your carry and uses ult and e, hes stuck in the entire enemy team with maybe a flash of zhonyas. THIS is when you cc him. If you cant just cc and kill him, wait until he dives your carries and is all alone behind you. He is very squishy so you only need about a 2 second stun and have everybody target him during that time. He should die. If he dives your carry and you and your whole team are still focusing the enemies with Fizz right behind you, you're playing wrong

MasterofSFL2 votes

Let's look at what you just said, outside of a vacum. You're saying that in order to stop Fizz, an entire team needs to ignore ths other four champions, allow said champions to Initiate on you, in order to create an opening for Fizz, at which point you blow everything tk stop him leaving nothing else to fend off four opponents.

Think about what this thread is about, Riot's definition of counter play and it's application. Now apply what you just said to that definition, an entire team must put themselves at a disadvantage in order to stop one player. How is that not a lack of counterplay?

FyshinaTux2 votes

Isn't that how most teamfights go anyway? Last I checked you targeted the easiest kill/biggest threat first. I don't see the issue.

MasterofSFL2 votes

Last time I checked, waiting for the other team to initiate on you was a terrible, terrible Idea.

MasterofSFL2 votes

Since this discussion is getting a little off-tangent, I'd like to reiterate that it is not about Fizz being Overpowered, "How to play against" Fizz or who counters him.

This thread is about Riot's own Design Process, Design Methodology that dictates what is essential for an overall healthy game. Part of this, as stated by Riot, is healthy Counter-play and Counter-play can be defined as "The ability to exploit meaningful weaknesses to gain a tactical advantage." To further define it, weakness is "an inherent, obvious flaw." In the full context, Counter-play is being able to take advantage of something and use it to your advantage.

Things such as being melee, squishy and all-in are inherent weaknesses. Being melee makes it easier to be kited. Being squishy makes being killed easier. Being all-in means being committed. Fizz inherently has all these traits, except each one is nullified by one thing or another with-in his kit. It's impossible to Kite Fizz on your own, he has two slows, a knock-up and three jumps. Squishiness is a non-factor when you can completely mitigate all damage for a period of time. While an all-in champion, Fizz has the luxury of setting up kills from afar and waiting till the last moment to strike.

As is, Fizz's weaknesses are overcome by his Kit to the point that there is no meaningful weakness or opening to exploit. Harassing Fizz is a non-option in most cases, as most abilities are projectiles and therefore subject to "popping," leaving you open for an immediate attack afterwards. Trading is difficult, as the aforementioned "Popping" still exists as well as Fizz having superior maneuverability and front loaded damage, forcing you to either hit him after he's finished his attack (and possibly going out of position) or play placid.

By definition, if counter-play is the ability to exploit weaknesses to your advantage, then the more weaknesses and the more exploitable they are, the more counter-play something has. Vice-Versa, the less weakness something exhibits and the harder it is to exploit, the less counter-play something has.

Being forced to drop everything and CC someone is terrible counter-play. Being forced to buy a Specific item(s) to shut someone down, is terrible counter-play. Having to rely on turtling strategies and reactive play to just not lose, is terrible counter-play. So far all methods of dealing with Fizz mentioned by proponents of Fizz (Either as Fizz players themselves or people who "know how to deal with them") has been one of these three.

FyshinaTux2 votes

If that's the case, then how do you counterplay Sejuani? She has an AoE ult that stuns you for so long.

Warwick, how do you counterplay an instant blink which suppresses you?

Ziggs, poke for days, can't siege against him, can't prevent a siege with him on the enemy team.

Caitlyn, that range is just too big, you can't counterplay that.

Nautilus, CC bot.

Amumu, his ult is on par with Sejuani's.

Yasuo, windwall makes him almost unpokeable (and is somewhat unclear as to what should/shouldn't be blocked.)

Kassadin and Shaco, low CD flash, in Kassadin's case, low CD flash that does damage.

Lucian, his double tap passive makes it near impossible to win a trade with him.

Annie, can instaburst you in the duration of her stun.

Orianna, my plat+ friends all agree that she has a broken kit for teamfighting. You get initiated on by someone that has her shield, she ults and pulls all of you in doing MASSIVE damage, then W's and slows you all so you can't get away and take MORE massive damage.

I could keep going. The simple way to put it, is learn what champions do what, learn where they're weak, and learn to play around that weakness. With Fizz being the example you chose (as most people seem to do, forgetting that he's an assassin and should be able to burst people... Most of his early game damage is on his E (that would be the troll pole), so if you go to hit him with something, and he dodges it and lands right on top of you, you're likely not going to win the trade. If he doesn't land on you with it, turn and throw WHATEVER you have at him, and you'll win the trade 99% of the time. Additionally, Fizz REALLY needs items to do what he needs to do, so if he doesn't roll his lane, or roam and roll other lanes, he won't have the same ability to assassinate people.

What people fail to realize, is that his E and his ult are skillshots, meaning they can both be dodged.

Stop using Fizz as an example of OP. He does his job, which no other assassin can really do anymore because of all the cries for nerfs.

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

You 100% missed the point of this thread good job.

What people fail to realize, is that his E and his ult are skillshots, meaning they can both be dodged.

Dodging his ult is one thing, but his E has an extremely forgiving hit area making dodging it not simply.

FyshinaTux1 votes

Wrong, her E has a forgiving area on the first cast, on the second cast the area is DRASTICALLY reduced.

Most Fizz try to land the first cast for the slow, rather than the second for the damage. ;)

MasterofSFL2 votes

You fail to understand that it's not what a champion can do, it's what a Champion can't do.

Sejuani has extremely long cooldowns, is slow and has ok damage. Unless fed, her long range stun isn't going to murder you once it's hit. She can't murder someone in one combo. Naut, same Deal. Amumu, same deal (unless we want to go into the OMG HE's AP)

Zigg's is about immobile as Mages get these days, Annie is as well. Any Gapcloser with a Nuke or Resistance will not die or be poked down for day. They have almost no health, no way of dodging damage. Once you're on them they either kill you, or attempt to CC you long enough before they can make an escape.

Lucian has his problems, which have been already stated by Riot.

Caitlyn, Immobile, slow, low DPS for a carry.

I could go into detail as to why each and everyone one of these champions has weakpoints, where they are, like how Annie's Range is short, that Naut has no damage (when it matters), But that's not the point. No, the point is there are Champions out there that have very few and exploitable weaknesses because the weaknesses inherent in their character are covered by their Kits and their Kits are strong enough to withstand a lot.

Fizz's ultimate is a skill shot, why is it on a 1000+ range? Why does it have that, along with a 100% ratio as well as a 70% slow, and a Knockup and an AoE one at that, when this Champion also has 60% slow on another skill, three Jumps and a large amount of damage to boot.

For someone who is as mobile as Fizz, it seems redundant that he would need a Skill with such a range and amount of utility, just to overtake a target. Saying that because it's a "skillshot" make it ok, that some how being a "skillshot" makes it "counter-play" is weak at best. It's not blocked by Minions, it's fairly fast, early game it's a difficult shot to land, at all.

But then, what about the other way around, about if you want to attack Fizz? Well, we've been over that, you don't. Just about every piece of advice you or any other proponent of his current iteration has said "Just wait till Troll Pool is Down," 'Wait for him to go all in," "Wait for him to make a mistake." And in-lies the problem, I can't control the field against Fizz on my own, I can't actively make an advance on Fizz and use my intuition, my abilities to knock him out of lane. I have to wait for him to make the first move, for him to blow his cooldowns before I can even make one myself and hope I'm not dead. That, right there, is a lack of counter-play. Counter-play is not "countering," it is not reactive in nature, it is proactive. It is you being able to use something to your advantage, not waiting for something to make it even.

Most of your argument can really boil down to this, because other champions have powerful abilities, or problems, we should ignore Fizz's. That because he has certain attributes to him, we should allow him to do what he does. That instead of their being a problem with Fizz and his core design, it's other people who just need to "get good."

If you've never read about Riot's own views on Game design, if you don't what they consider Counter-play and why it's needed, I suggest you go look it up and read and then come back.

FyshinaTux

You fail to understand sarcasm...

I was pointing out that the OP was talking about what Fizz CAN do, so I gave counterpoints that fit that description to show how his post was flawed, because OBVIOUSLY people know how to counter the people I listed...

ILoveTiramisu1 votes

I Agree.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

Most of his dmg is single-target, he dies damn quick, e really has huge cd if you fight 5v5. He heavily relies on his Positioning and Timing if he wants to do more than a suicide mission (that most likely will fail to kill someone) if he´s played by and against players with some mechanics and gameknowledge. For lower elos he really might get away with rightclicking and relaying on his high base-stats though.

Edit: maybe look at the EG vs Curse game min 3.50...there you see what a skilled player can do vs Fizz 1v1 mid if he uses his range advantage properly.

MasterofSFL3 votes

So we disregard any problems a champion has because Top-Tier players themselves are less effected by his inherent issues?

Earl Eulrich1 votes

Or we just acknowledge that the only problem with Fizz are people that don´t know how to play against him. And Akali is a much worse offender here.

MasterofSFL2 votes

I can use the same Argument for Akali that you use for Fizz. Not knowing how to play against and having no opprotunity to play against are two different things. There is no clear time to attack Fizz under most circumstances, its pretty understandable why. The few windows you have are well after he's done something. Actively being able to act against a champion is part of counterplay, Fizz lacks this.

Charcole1 votes

Banshees Vail alone will take away his q. If you have hourglass and use it when he ults or uses trickster then you have negated almost all of his damage and he now has no escapes. Quit following build guides and build smarter. If his gap closer owns....eliminate it with banshees! So simpal I teech u

Remlap12232 votes

You know who else everyone had to build Banshee's on or get insta chunked? Nidalee. If you need to change your build to counter 1 specific champion on the enemy team when there are FOUR other champions, that champion is radically unbalanced. Nidalee was the most toxic champion in the game to play against mid lane due to her never ending javelins of death, now that title is firmly held by Fizz due to his troll pole.

Monoblair1 votes

the difference is that nidalee would toss her javelin from a distance and never be in much danger doing so as opposed to fizz who needs to put himself in the middle of your team and risk dying to burst carries down, and what harm does getting banshee's just for fizz have? more mr so fizz is less useful, more health in general, and the spell shield helps against any cc

MasterofSFL3 votes

So all mids (and any squishy in general) needs to first buy BVeil in order to have some sort of counter play againsy Fizz?

Do we not see the problem with this?

Monoblair1 votes

i never said buying it first, assassins are good at picking up kills alone early on so the "counter play" is not giving them kills early and just clear waves (which most mages can do very well after chalice) then buy banshees for team fights

MasterofSFL2 votes

So your logic is "don't let him kill you and play passive," no actively engaging in pushing him out of lane, gaining an advatage, outplaying or even gaining a slight lead.

No, sit back, farm minions and hope he doesnt kill you. You basically just admitted that stagnating a lane is the only way to play against Fizz, which mkre than enough reason to change him.

Monoblair1 votes

so if im top lane playing nasus against i don't know renekton my goal is always to try to beat him in lane and not using my scaling to my advantage? no, i should farm and wait until later on in the game when my damage is way better then him. and i never said that's the only way because he can get ganked and screwed over if you force him to engage on you with trickster and then have your jungler come around since he has no escape.

MasterofSFL3 votes

With Nasus being one of the pinnacle of lane stagnation and immovable wall type characters in the game, I don't think in a thread about counter-play you should use him as your example.

The Lexer1 votes

Or you could take Cleanse or if AD buy MS. The active (and that of QSS) will REMOVE Fizz's fish from your body. Barrier does decent against him also

Skias3 votes

He is invulnerable during playful. He is actually fairly safe in melee range.

Monoblair1 votes

yes? so does vlad pool and elise repel. kinda but not very his roal is almost always an assassin making him fairly squishy, he can buy zhonyas if his goal is to get in, kill carries, and zhonya's for follow up, but if he doesn't kill the other teams carry he isn't that useful

Fáfnír2 votes

Bad comparison IMO.

  • Vlad is piss early game, he has no mobility, and the pool costs 20% of his health
  • Elise has no other mobility, she must target and her E deals no damage in both forms
  • Fizz is really strong early, has another mobility source, deals tons of damage with any spell and is safer than those two overall (until Elise gets tankier and Vlad gets big)...
Skias2 votes

And you only need two extremely expensive items that you will never reach before he is well on his way to crushing you.

ZXDYKioaMx1 votes

No champion should 100% force every opponent to HAVE to build a certain item just to have a CHANCE (not guarantee) of counterplaying them. A hard hitting champion like Volibear or Jax are tough and may push you to build Armor and some MR but at the end of the day you can still counterplay (not guarantee win which is how it should be) them. Obviously just save your disengage or escape for after Jax's jump. And save your CC or disengage for when Voli starts to charge. You don't 100% have to have a specific item to guarantee a CHANCE at counterplay.

Some champions who cross this border: -Fizz (High Damage is fine, mobility too low risk high reward. Needs tweak) -Fiddlesticks (Predictable, low skill cap but too much CC. Needs Rework) -Yasuo (High damage, mobility and several layers to cover his 1 weakness at no cost. Needs to be deleted) -Tryndamere (High damage is fine but too low risk high reward. Needs tweak)

And the argument of "They are weak to CC" is invalid. All champions react to CC the same way with a handful of situational exceptions being listed below. There is no such thing as being weak to CC especially since 90% of champions including the borderline no counterplay champions usually have some form of CC themselves. -Morgana Black Shield -Irelia Passive -Gangplank Oranges -Garen/Lucian slow cleansing dash -Yi & Olaf Ult

The Lexer2 votes

So if 90% of champions are countered by CC, why don't you just CC them???

Fizz countered.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

Fizz has poor waveclear.

Tons of champions can push him in and force him to either miss CS or use E for wave clear. After he uses his E you can be very aggressive for a bit as his main damage, escape, is down.

Riot considers THIS counterplay.

Assassins in general have the least amount of counterplay, as their intention is to remove a target as fast as possible. The counterplay to them is keep them from being able to get to your squishies, and keep them from getting farmed enough to be able to 100-0 people in the front/mid-line.

MasterofSFL3 votes

And I addressed that, somewhat, in my Original post. His passive allows him to ignore huge waves of Minions and still go directly for you. On top of that, the champions with huge wave clear also, in typical fashion, the most immobile.

I also addressed that last part more then enough.

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