Fizz and Riot's View on Counterplay.

MasterofSFL·7/27/2014, 5:32:36 PM·14 votes·3,052 views

It's be said over and over throughout the pass view years that Riot enjoys counter-play, that they look at it as an important part of both a character's design as well as a player's ability to find and exploit weaknesses in their opponent. We can source many nerfs, changes or complete destruction of skills, items and playstyles based on the simple idea that everything should have a meaningful weakness.

Then we have characters like Fizz.

Now before we go any further, this isn't an OP thread, it's about how Fizz's kit has a lack of counter-play overall, making it difficult if not impossible to gain an advantage or even playing field against him.

There are three main reasons counter-play against Fizz is low:

  1. His Damage is Upfront

  2. Mobility

  3. His Damage is Over-tuned

The most glaring and obvious lack of counter-play is a player's inability to escape Fizz's damage. Unlike most other Assassins (Shaco, LeBlanc, Zed, ect) who's Gapclosers are either Moderate to Low damage (Depending on your combo), Fizz's Gapcloser allows Fizz to not only close the distance between him and his target it also accounts for a very hefty portion of his Damage.

The full damage readout of an Urchin Strike is as Follows: 10-130 (+ 60% AP) + AD

When you take into account Seastone Trident's Passive:

10-130 (+ 60% AP) + AD + {(30-70 [+ 35% AP])/3}

And When you Activate Seastone Trident: 10-130 (+ 60% AP) + AD + {(30-70 [+ 35% AP])/3} +10-30 (+ 25% AP)

All Together it looks like this (Please Pardon if my Equation is slightly off, it's the idea that matters most): 10-130 + AD + 3[10-23 + (11.6%AP)] + 10-30 + (85% AP)

In just one move Fizz is able to both close the distance between him and his target and Dish out Roughly 50-230 points of Damage plus Over 100% of AP in damage. Now the damage looks meager when you look at it out of context with his entire Kit, but as the game progresses and Fizz gains more and more AP, His first hit becomes much more powerful, allowing him to chunk health bars simply by Jumping to someone.

In lane this creates an incredibly frustrating dynamic, in order for most champions to make a move on Fizz, they will be within a reasonable range for Fizz to Jump to. When you consider that Fizz can easily front most of his harassment/damage (and close distance) with one ability and in such a small time frame, you realize that any trade you make against him will require very quick timing and possibly an additional spell to escape or out damage him.

This leads into his mobility. While it is the first hit that makes Fizz scary, it's his free range of the lane (and battlefield) that makes him dangerous. With Two Gap Closers and 1(3) escape(s), Fizz would already compete with most other champions as "the most mobile," but then you add in his passive and things get wonky. Being unhindered by minions in lane means that the natural barriers that typically impede players from freely interacting with one another are rendered null against Fizz. This makes Zoning Fizz through Minion Control impossible, as he can easily bypass a wall of minions and move straight to you without having to use Playful to do it.

This simple passive gives Fizz an distinct advantage, as his one true escape can be saved. It means that Fizz can simply walk into range at any given opportunity and attack, then fall back with little consequence. It makes it difficult to be anywhere within the vicinity of Fizz, as you can not rely on your minions to act as a wall between you and Him and block him as you harass.

Then there is Playful. We already talked about Fizz front loading his damage, but it is the fact that he can Front Load it and then leave almost immediately (and safely) that makes playing against Fizz a true pain. With a good chunk of damage loaded onto one skill, Fizz can freely jump to someone, Chunk them, then Jump away, all before he can be targeted (and if he is, it breaks). This leaves his opponents unable to make a meaningful play against Fizz, at all, all but the most tankiest champions have trouble dealing with a prolonged barrage of this.

And that is one of the reasons his damage is over-tuned. For Fizz, dealing a large portion of his Damage is not hard, because of the Front Loading ability of Urchin Strike, but then his other two Skills (Chum and Trickster) both have a Combined 175% AP, as well as decent bases and tons of versatility packed into them.

Chum is unimpeded by obstacles, Slows/knocks-up, has a Large range and creates an area of control. Playful/Trickster is both a Gapcloser and an Escape, as well as a Nuke.

The fact that Fizz, once 6, can at any time initiate a fight on a target makes Chum incredibly powerful for an assassin, but then you take into consideration that it also makes it impossible to fight back against Fizz, who already has an arsenal of Mobility and Damage. Once hit, a champion for the next 2.5 Seconds essentially is unable to do anything, between the speed of Urchin Strike, the Untargetability of Playful and the Knockup of Chum, all combine to create a moment of complete invulnerability for Fizz (in a 1v1). The damage from all 4 skills is almost guaranteed to kill any non-tank champion that's taken even a little bit of damage.

Fizz's entire kit is counter to the idea of counter-play Riot. Players have very few opportunities to exploit Fizz's natural weaknesses (Low Health Pool, Melee), due to His Zhonya's-esq ability to nullify damage and high mobility. On top of this, Players, once caught by his Ult, have very little chance to fight back for these very same reasons. And on top of that, the damage output by Fizz alone is so quick and large that in most cases he is able to overpower you simply by existing. I have no included Items in this discussion up to this point for simplicities, but when we consider Core Items like Zhonya's and Lich Bane, it becomes apparent there is a problem.

Fizz needs to have his power shifted into one area or another, while having his overall power leveled out in order to make room for players to exploit his weaknesses, I prefer to keep to his strength and identity as a slippery champion who darts around the battlefield. This can take the form of reducing the Damage of Trickster and Chum, making it so that Fizz must put some damage on someone before he can initiate an assassination. Lower the range on Chum, forcing Fizz to be closer to his target in order to force a fight. Lastly, remove the slow on Chum, but increase it on Trickster, making Chum less of a "I GOTCHA/GET AWAY FROM ME!" Spell, and more a tool to create an opening.

Various powershifts, such as increasing the Bleed damage (Base and Ratio) on Trident, The base range of Playful (Equally lowered on Trickster) and lowering the cooldown on Urchin can push Fizz to be a more Hit and Run champion that relies on Positioning, good timing and tactics instead of a steamroller who picks and chooses when someone must die. Doing this gives players the opportunity to react to Fizz, by stretching out his damage and removing a lot of control Fizz previously had as well as being to push Fizz into a new direction that flushes out his identity by focusing on his ability to dart and dodge, be slippery and hard to catch

50 Comments

Gypsyleeboy7/27/2014, 7:28:34 PM4 votes

This makes me want top play fizz ;p

Everyone has a counter, but I'll agree. Fizz early game is scary.. And if fed early, then fizz late game is also scary.

The main champions that counter fizz just so happen to not be as popular as a jinx or a ziggz. Characters like Ryze are a powerful counter, and also diana who kicks most ap melee champions down the mountain.

IMO, his E should only make one jump, since his Q already dashes toward minions or champions. And his ultimate should deal less damage than it does. If fizz has 800 AP late game his ult is doing over 1200 damage. Give or take some items, mid game his ult is still doing about 700+ damage.

Fizz ultimate should only scale on 50% AP.. INSTEAD OF 100% and maybe just make the slow at 70% all levels.

Marthian7/28/2014, 5:30:28 AM4 votes

I agree, Fizz's kit is simply overloaded for an assassin. *Damage reduction against his favored targets (unnecessary considering he can blow ADCs up before they can do enough damage for the passive to mean anything.) *A ton of mobility and gap-closer (one making him untargetable.) *Grievous Wounds (going to be taking more damage per second than you can heal pretty much.) *Ease of applying on-hit effects (painful ones at that.) *His ult does so much: a 1.0AP nuke, heavy slow that turns into a knockup, and then nukes nearby allies and slows them.

Fusion3227/27/2014, 7:27:39 PM3 votes

Fizz has no counterplay, playful/trickster should be removed from the game.

MarhsallLee677/27/2014, 8:33:42 PM2 votes

The counterplay to Fizz is not wasting your abilities until he wastes his.

MasterofSFL7/28/2014, 3:34:36 PM2 votes

Since this discussion is getting a little off-tangent, I'd like to reiterate that it is not about Fizz being Overpowered, "How to play against" Fizz or who counters him.

This thread is about Riot's own Design Process, Design Methodology that dictates what is essential for an overall healthy game. Part of this, as stated by Riot, is healthy Counter-play and Counter-play can be defined as "The ability to exploit meaningful weaknesses to gain a tactical advantage." To further define it, weakness is "an inherent, obvious flaw." In the full context, Counter-play is being able to take advantage of something and use it to your advantage.

Things such as being melee, squishy and all-in are inherent weaknesses. Being melee makes it easier to be kited. Being squishy makes being killed easier. Being all-in means being committed. Fizz inherently has all these traits, except each one is nullified by one thing or another with-in his kit. It's impossible to Kite Fizz on your own, he has two slows, a knock-up and three jumps. Squishiness is a non-factor when you can completely mitigate all damage for a period of time. While an all-in champion, Fizz has the luxury of setting up kills from afar and waiting till the last moment to strike.

As is, Fizz's weaknesses are overcome by his Kit to the point that there is no meaningful weakness or opening to exploit. Harassing Fizz is a non-option in most cases, as most abilities are projectiles and therefore subject to "popping," leaving you open for an immediate attack afterwards. Trading is difficult, as the aforementioned "Popping" still exists as well as Fizz having superior maneuverability and front loaded damage, forcing you to either hit him after he's finished his attack (and possibly going out of position) or play placid.

By definition, if counter-play is the ability to exploit weaknesses to your advantage, then the more weaknesses and the more exploitable they are, the more counter-play something has. Vice-Versa, the less weakness something exhibits and the harder it is to exploit, the less counter-play something has.

Being forced to drop everything and CC someone is terrible counter-play. Being forced to buy a Specific item(s) to shut someone down, is terrible counter-play. Having to rely on turtling strategies and reactive play to just not lose, is terrible counter-play. So far all methods of dealing with Fizz mentioned by proponents of Fizz (Either as Fizz players themselves or people who "know how to deal with them") has been one of these three.

MarhsallLee677/28/2014, 7:18:14 AM2 votes

It seems like I'm the only person here who has no problem going against a fizz.

It is painfully obvious when a Fizz is about to try to all-in you, as his q range is not that great. If he gets within range, it is possible to CC him mid-q if you have good timing (so long as it's instant-cc such as ahri's charm, lux's snare, etc.). If they lead off with E, they have no escape and either burn flash to try to get away or you take the opportunity to take out a good chunk of his health.

His ult is a pretty narrow skillshot and is really not that hard to dodge if you have considerable experience going up against skillshot-reliant champions like blitz, thresh, or nidalee.

Ahri vs Fizz, for example, is basically a guaranteed win if you can land your charm- you can use your ultimate to dodge his e/r (or get back to safety if he lands his ult, forcing him to either dive you or back off) and charm him mid-q (to do so only requires quick reflexes, as it should be easy to hit a target that's coming straight for you).

I've also had good experience against Fizz as Diana- her shield can negate quite a bit of damage while dealing some back, and the double-dash you can get on your ultimate is an amazing gap-closer if he tries to escape on his troll pole.

But, in general, so long as you don't use your crowd control until after his troll pole goes on cooldown and you can keep your distance and keep him poked down, it really is not that difficult to beat fizz in lane.

The Lexer7/28/2014, 12:29:39 PM2 votes

As a Fizz main I can tell you once he dives on your carry and uses ult and e, hes stuck in the entire enemy team with maybe a flash of zhonyas. THIS is when you cc him. If you cant just cc and kill him, wait until he dives your carries and is all alone behind you. He is very squishy so you only need about a 2 second stun and have everybody target him during that time. He should die. If he dives your carry and you and your whole team are still focusing the enemies with Fizz right behind you, you're playing wrong

Old Man Teeto7/29/2014, 1:33:32 AM1 votes

Fizz has poor waveclear.

Tons of champions can push him in and force him to either miss CS or use E for wave clear. After he uses his E you can be very aggressive for a bit as his main damage, escape, is down.

Riot considers THIS counterplay.

Assassins in general have the least amount of counterplay, as their intention is to remove a target as fast as possible. The counterplay to them is keep them from being able to get to your squishies, and keep them from getting farmed enough to be able to 100-0 people in the front/mid-line.

ILoveTiramisu7/27/2014, 8:56:09 PM1 votes

I Agree.

Earl Eulrich7/27/2014, 9:00:19 PM1 votes

Most of his dmg is single-target, he dies damn quick, e really has huge cd if you fight 5v5. He heavily relies on his Positioning and Timing if he wants to do more than a suicide mission (that most likely will fail to kill someone) if he´s played by and against players with some mechanics and gameknowledge. For lower elos he really might get away with rightclicking and relaying on his high base-stats though.

Edit: maybe look at the EG vs Curse game min 3.50...there you see what a skilled player can do vs Fizz 1v1 mid if he uses his range advantage properly.

Charcole7/28/2014, 2:14:55 AM1 votes

Banshees Vail alone will take away his q. If you have hourglass and use it when he ults or uses trickster then you have negated almost all of his damage and he now has no escapes. Quit following build guides and build smarter. If his gap closer owns....eliminate it with banshees! So simpal I teech u

ZXDYKioaMx7/28/2014, 3:21:14 AM1 votes

No champion should 100% force every opponent to HAVE to build a certain item just to have a CHANCE (not guarantee) of counterplaying them. A hard hitting champion like Volibear or Jax are tough and may push you to build Armor and some MR but at the end of the day you can still counterplay (not guarantee win which is how it should be) them. Obviously just save your disengage or escape for after Jax's jump. And save your CC or disengage for when Voli starts to charge. You don't 100% have to have a specific item to guarantee a CHANCE at counterplay.

Some champions who cross this border: -Fizz (High Damage is fine, mobility too low risk high reward. Needs tweak) -Fiddlesticks (Predictable, low skill cap but too much CC. Needs Rework) -Yasuo (High damage, mobility and several layers to cover his 1 weakness at no cost. Needs to be deleted) -Tryndamere (High damage is fine but too low risk high reward. Needs tweak)

And the argument of "They are weak to CC" is invalid. All champions react to CC the same way with a handful of situational exceptions being listed below. There is no such thing as being weak to CC especially since 90% of champions including the borderline no counterplay champions usually have some form of CC themselves. -Morgana Black Shield -Irelia Passive -Gangplank Oranges -Garen/Lucian slow cleansing dash -Yi & Olaf Ult