A very Twisted Fate: a discussion about Twisted Fate and his current state in the game.

Jingerbeardman·Jul 27, 2014·4 votes·1,802 views

I am here to attempt to open a discussion about Twisted Fate and his under/overwhelming state within the game. As a champion he is about teamwork more than most others in the roster. His ult is about setting up and making plays in unexpected ways. There isn't anything wrong with this thematic direction but it does create a troublesome job of balancing him so that he doesn't become the most overpowered champion in the early game.

What bothers me most about twisted fate is his extremely deceiving skill floor and incredibly high skill cap. At first glance TF looks pretty straight forward in terms of what he can and is designed to do. Once in game though that can change rather quickly as his low move speed, low base health, and short attack range paint a very different picture.

Lane phase is where Twisted Fate Shines his brightest by being able to hop around to nearby areas of the map and revealing all of the enemy team by using his ult. He can set up some out of nowhere plays that help snowball his teammates into the lead when successful or at least provide some good pressure to try and help your allies recover. Once lane phase is over though Twisted Fate's presence begins to dwindle quite quickly. The reason being that after level 13 he scales very poorly.

Stacked deck is the culprit for this drop off. As a spell it works well during lane phase but becomes incredibly inconsistent as the game moves into skirmishes and teamfights. That is because Twisted Fate's attack range and subsequent lack of mobility work against him when it comes to auto attacking targets in order to fully utilize his kit. He has to get pretty close to targets he would least like to be near.

I am asking the Twisted fate players out there as to whether or not this is an accurate assessment. I have seen my share of TF players be extremely successful as well as to many falling flat on their face. I am typically one that falls on my face... Would a change to stacked deck and how it functioned be something people would be interested in if it could be implemented effectively? Stacked deck is the most opportune place to make changes without affecting TF's core identity.

I have an iteration I have come up with that I want to add as well. It is a bit long winded since I am including my thought process on how I came to my iteration so if you want the TL/DR you can find it at the bottom.

Stacked decks identity

Every fourth attack deals additional magic damage that scales with ability power
increases attack speed passively

My goal

Figure out a way to make stacked deck more reliable and readily available in team fights and skirmishes in the mid and late game without offsetting its early game power.

My idea Rather than require four auto attacks for it to empower your next auto attack, I suggest put it on an automatic activation timer. To draw an example from other existing champions, have it function similar to how Shen's and Nocturne's passive work. After a certain period of time from its last activation it becomes available to be used again and auto attacks while it is on cooldown reduce the down time.

My thought process There is a hiccup with how this ultimately functions and it isn't attack speed, it is cool down reduction. Being one of Twisted Fates 3 regular abilities that he can choose to rank it would be subject to CDR unlike passives. At first I thought to have the ability not be affected by cool down reduction but I quickly realized that would mess with the clarity of CDR and that is against RIOT's design fundamentals. If it is subject to CDR, having each auto attack reduce the down time by a flat amount would make stacked deck be potentially available on every other attack and that would really throw Twisted Fate outa balance.

Since my goal is to port the current values into a new and functioning system while preserving the identity of the ability I had run into a brick wall. That was until today. After having a Twisted fate on my team in one of my matches today the iteration came to my mind again. Remembering why it ultimately wouldn't work from previous brainstorming I simply put it to the back of my mind and continued playing. After the match I thought on it for a bit and went over the reasons I felt it wouldn't work again. The first and second reasons are stated above, the third is that having CDR also reduce the amount of time each auto attack removed from the downtime is not an option since that would make it feel like obtaining CDR was having both a positive and negative effect when it should only have a positive one.

Then I realized that my third reason was in fact my solution and I was just using the wrong variables. Instead of each attack reducing a set value of the downtime it instead would reduce a set percentage of the maximum downtime. That way obtaining CDR could effectively reduce the downtime without visibly negative side effects.

(EDIT 7/27 removed the passive attack speed bonus, after further discussion I consider it to not be necessary any longer) The Iteration (TL/DR) Stacked Deck Every 10 seconds, Twisted Fate's next attack deals an additional 55/80/105/130/155 (+50% Ability Power) magic damage. Auto attacks reduce the downtime by 30% of the max cooldown. the exact numbers would take actual testing so these are just obvious fill in to better flesh it out

The Balance This ultimately affects Twisted Fate and his balance of power but I don't think it would be enough to really put him over the top. What it does do is make stacked deck scale better into the late game. Provides a different potential play pattern that allows TF to engage and disengage in team fights while still utilizing his entire kit. It also helps reduce both the skill floor and skill cap enough that it makes TF a bit more fun and successful for players just picking him up while at the same time not being to powerful for pro players who know him in and out.

23 Comments

Serpents EmbraceJul 27, 20143 votes

Would giving it the same treatment as Pantheon's passive help?

It gains a charge every spell or attack and then augments the next attack as usual. This would let him use Q, W and R to stack it in team fights without relying solely on his base attack range.

JingerbeardmanJul 27, 20142 votes

it is an idea for sure. My only qualm with it would be using Pick a Card since that incorporates the use of a spell and an auto attack. I fear it would make stacked deck to available which would severely augment his early lane phase in an unhealthy way. Thank you for the input though! I hadn't really given this idea much thought until you said it.

Serpents EmbraceJul 27, 20142 votes

Well. With 0 stacks he would have to cast Q 3 times and then activate his W to get his Stacked Deck to hit on his next Pick a Card attack. That's a LOT of mana in lane phase. Or, he'd have to use Pick a Card more than once which would mean he'd need to be in auto-attack range of something before he gets Stacked Deck again.

I think requiring 4 stacks makes Stacked Deck difficult to be too available even with the additional stack trigger.

JingerbeardmanJul 28, 20142 votes

you are omitting auto attacks as a factor. the activation of pick a card is also an additional count not just the attack to use it.

Serpents EmbraceJul 28, 20141 votes

But using the Pick A Card attack to stack up to Stacked Deck means it's not being used in conjunction, which means there's a larger window for retaliation, even if he used the Gold card stun.

It'd be up more often, yeah, but I'm not sure it'd necessarily be oppressive. And if it is up too often in lane, the scaling could be tuned so that it has lower damage early to its current or higher damage late.

The main issue you outlined with Stacked Deck was its unavailability late game due to Twisted Fate's low attack range. Allowing him to use his abilities to stack (and as a mage these are his main focus to begin with) would mitigate that late because his spell range is so safe.

JingerbeardmanJul 28, 20141 votes

Retaliation isnt a very big factor when you consider stacked deck compared to other abilities. seeing as it is automated and not self activated trying to time your attacks against a TF when it isn't available is somewhat moot.

I am not disagreeing that this is another possible iteration but when looked at objectively from every angle there would be to much of an impact on his early lane phase which would then require more resources to inevitably balance. One of my underlying goals I had was to find a different functionality without having an extreme impact on his early lane phase. Since his lane phase is where he shines best, giving any kind of boost in power there could tip him into the unhealthy zone. My iteration, while affecting his lane phase, has a very low impact on this period of the game in theory. It would be great to test this in some way and see if my ideas pan out the way I think they would, but that is something I am unable to do.

Sire HippingtonJul 27, 20142 votes

it would lower his skill floor a bit and help in standoffs, but it won't help with the core problem: the insane potential of his ult+goldcart, makeing any buff, how small it will be, a dangerous change.

I personaly would like to see his stuncard getting removed, as it would free up so incredible much power to make his kit as a whole feel better, but the stun probably is core to his indentity for most players...

JingerbeardmanJul 27, 20141 votes

I agree that his gold card +ult combo is extremely potent but decent TF players would likely make sure to always have stacked deck active before using said combo to maximize damage. The iteration I suggest will neither nerf or buff said combo. All my iteration would change is that it would make it easier to set up and since his ult doesn't amplify his damage at all I can not see an ill effect or sever balance issue coming from it. It just makes him more efficient at what he is potentially capable of doing already.

I wouldnt expect to see any changes made to pick a card. this is the skill that most people identify with TF. Any kind of major change to the ability would severely alter his identity.

Sire HippingtonJul 27, 20141 votes

The danger is not that his goldcard ganks become even better, but that if his late gets buffed while he got so much early presure his overall performance would become to strong, as he eventually doesn't pay enough for his massive presence in the laneingphase.

I wouldn't mind testing ur idea in PBE, but buffing tf is definitly dangerous.

JingerbeardmanJul 27, 20141 votes

Totally agree with you. However my goal was to simply port the same values from the current stacked deck into the new functionality. That means it is not much of a buff at all. The change only affects his presence in team fights and skirmishes for the most part. It will effect laning phase some but only in a good way that will help prevent him from being completely dominated.

I am confident in saying this because I made sure to retain the auto attack element to the ability.

However if it was found that the auto attack reduction is in fact to much or overbearing, It is possible to remove that element altogether and reduce the overall downtime between stacked deck attacks. This direction would also make the passive attack speed buff unnecessary and able to be removed which would effectively free up the power necessary for the stacked deck changes.

all in all I do not see a change of this sort making him to powerful. Twisted fate doesn't have incredible ratios on his spells and his ult doesn't actually deal damage or buff him in any way. This change wouldn't actually make him all that more powerful late game, truth be told. He is already capable of the damage I simply ported over from live, this change would just give TF the healthier play pattern he needs to stay a bit more viable into the late game.

NalitusJul 27, 20141 votes

I don't know how much that would solve the problem, given that due to TF's short range he is often using a red or gold card to help peel. I would say that his kit needs some reworking since there is obvious synergy between his W and E, while his Q is a random wave clear ability. I think that your version of stacked deck would work well if they somehow changed his Q by giving him more incentive to auto. If I were approaching TF from Riot perspective of weaknesses, I would say that his Q has a lack of counterplay that does not fit with the importance of positioning stressed by his E and R. Your thoughts?

Flying BuntcakeJul 27, 20141 votes

His q does feel weird, they need to focus him as a , if you are here at this exact time, you can get kills ( positioning)

JingerbeardmanJul 27, 20141 votes

I agree that there is a great deal of synergy between his W and E. That is a big reason I listed my iteration. with it no longer requiring auto attacks to activate, it is possible to use it in larger team fights multiple times with relative safety compared to right now where using it a second time would require you to stay at 525 range attacking 3 times in order to have it available again.

His Q is definitely a strong wave clear ability but it is also a powerful siege tool that allows you to poke from a safe distance. while it may not seem like it has much synergy with his kit, it has its place in the grand scheme of things. while this is true it is also extremely easy to avoid so it has no lack of counterplay like you suggested. If his Q range was changed to emphasize more AA his ability to zone would be lost and he would become even worse than he is now.

Flying BuntcakeJul 27, 20141 votes

Sounds good. Make his e more useful when not in aa range to anything, very nice.

Knight SoIaire Jul 27, 20141 votes

tf needs a lot of work

he is squishy mage with insanely low range on his core dmg 2)his ult loses most of its use in mid/late game 3)his pick a card is a wery nice skill but it doesnt work as intended, you should pick beetwen 3 tools based on situation but in practice its more like, spam blue to lasthit or damage towers, gold is for anthing serious, red one is a punishment for not being good at picking cards, or a medicore farming tool cause his q does it just better, still 90% of time you want gold card which is just plainly better (let me say why i think so, you may pick betwen, damage with stun, damage with aoe, damage with mana regen, damage with stun is just beter cause single targets usualy carry the damage in enemy team ) 4)as a close range mage he is immobile meanign that the entire mobility creep that actualy exists has a whole lot of advantages over such type of a champ (he splitpushes, mobile champs will get there in time. he tries to fight, mobile champs will kill him faster) 5)he just lacks tools

IAmNeverViableJul 27, 20141 votes

well for a person who's like tf as it is i should tell u what he's good at and bad at. pro

amazing wave clear and siege under turret
good sustain
low cd for his q and w for stun
global presences and roamer (most likely guarantee a kill when ult)
kills turret easy
good passive that even if you go even on cs with your enemy midlaner your ahead of gold.
Has a high skill ceiling. easy to pick up but hard to master.
His mid game is his strongest con
no good mobility or escape(expect ult)
predictable atk pattern due to his w and low range
low movement speed(needs movement quintessence)
falls out of late game.

overall i like where he is but would like a small change on his e. Like his 4th aa to amply his w but would like to change the as buff. Tf does not aa in teamfight. He throw his card and go back on the backside and repeats.

JingerbeardmanJul 27, 20141 votes

that is why I think his e should be changed into working like shen and nocturne passive. with that he would then be able to utilize his stacked deck better in team fights which would essentially improve his late game significantly. in all technicality Stacked deck when available already does increase his W damage.

IAmNeverViableJul 27, 20141 votes

here are few things i can think to replace the as passive and what should not have for as passive replacement.

What should NOT be a replacement for atk speed passive

cooldown- this is a nightmare for mid lane and everyone else. tf has already a low cd on his kit. If this happens we will see tf with full mana and lots of waveclear with his q. His ult would have a lower cd and will comes like every 2 min if this happens.
range- already tf have zoning potential and increazing his range would be like ap version of caitlyn with mana sustain and waveclear. Using his ult to gank would be impossible to get alway from him. overall bad idea.
true damage- someone thought of this in the past post of tf and does true damage on every 4th aa. Impossible to itemize against tf if this happen. tf would shred tanks which is really isn't his job.
magic/armor penetration- Too much ingame stat that will have to nerf tf if this happens. same as top, impossible to itemize against him. Always be a threat even if he falls behind.
ad/ap ingame- Tf already has a good passive for gold. Getting this is giving tf more power than he should.

What could be a replacement for atk speed passive. Warning not good with number

Movement speed- tf lack ms in his kit but could be good for him. he can somewhat escape from gank and caught up to target. I'm worry that he can be impossble to caught or hard to get away from.
Improving tf passive- similar to ashe e of getting more gold for each cs. Maybe kill a minion for every 4th atk give him extra gold. Gold is a factor in late game. worried he might get gold for just farm all day.
Enchanted form of his w- add a little boost for every 4th aa. red give bigger aoe, blue is more mana. yellow is longer stun duration. Afraid it's a huge buff to his kit and might need to nerf some of his kit for this to work.

JingerbeardmanJul 27, 20141 votes

I was merely using the shen and nocturne passives as examples of how it would work. I didn't intend for the passive attack speed element to actually be changed at all. If anything it could probably be removed altogether since it is primarily there to facilitate TF's ability to activate Stacked Deck in the first place. Even if auto attacks did reduce the downtime I am beginning to feel that the increased attack speed is frivolous since auto attacking or not Stacked deck will eventually become available.

JingerbeardmanJul 27, 20141 votes

I dont really think he needs a full rework. His identity is rather solid but what he lacks is the scaling into the late game. My iteration on E would provide that scaling. it wouldnt hurt though if he was given an additional 25 attack range :P

Pick a card does work as intended though, it is an amazing skill in all of its variations.

FreljordanJul 27, 20141 votes

what if they made red card have increased range? then it wouldn't just be crap, you could use it for safe poke and farm.

Old Man TeetoJul 29, 20141 votes

Twisted Fate scales actually very strongly into team fights.

His single target damage, CC, guaranteed vision (No brush juking or surprise flank), AoE, and Poke.

On top of that he has a top notch Pick potential at all stages, split pushing power late game with Pick a Card and Lichbane (3rd or 4th item)

He might not kill an entire team in one combo, but if you keep good positioning, TF is one of the strongest mid laners outside the laning phase.

TF is one of the mid laners that tweaks shift him from Niche to pick/ban. He's balanced because of his poor laning, but he still sees play. Champions shouldn't be playable in every game regardless of match up or team compositions. People who want a champion to be good at everything are the abominations that spawned Lee, Yasuo, Elise, Caitlyn, Lucian, etc.

JingerbeardmanJul 29, 20141 votes

I have a hard time with this. skirmishes he does alright, all out team fights though... if he falls even the smallest bit behind he can barely contribute. by no mean do i think a change like this would make him playable against any matchup.