@Riot, regarding Athene's Unholy Grail in 4.10

Canastus·Jun 18, 2014·15 votes·3,084 views

Why did you go so far to nerf this item into the ground? Couldn't you have simply increased the overall build-cost?

Did you ever consider the consequences for mana-hungry champions like Cassiopeia who entirely depend on mana-regeneration and what this kind of change means to them? You even went as far to cut down the magic resistence, can you imagine how this cripples any squishy midlaner?

You're badly hurting traditional mages who already lack any mobility and thus heavily rely on a constant use of their abilities to zone their opponents or just to keep up with farming.

If you're seriously worried about champions like Nidalee who seem to exploit this item for constant harassment at zero risk, you should restrict your dislike to said champions without destroying an item which is being used by far lesser 'evils'.

I haven't seen any compensation for champions (besides Galio) who consider it as a core-item in ther build, how are you going to deal with this issue? Are you simply going to tell them to build a Tear of the Goddess? What use is Athene's Unholy Grail even anymore if it fails to fullfill its role as the the number one mana-regeneration item?

29 Comments

PetMyRhinoJun 18, 20146 votes

I agree with you on this one. we need to bump this so that riot can see!

xwzclhJun 18, 20141 votes

cant agree more

RiotPhreakJun 19, 20146 votes

To address your points:

The item was definitely overpowered. It was bought in 90% of games. That's pretty crazy. Itemization is supposed to be a choice. Keep in mind, this is an item bought BY mages, and works AGAINST mages. So it's not like the MR reduction nerfed the mage class, it just made the mage vs mage matchup a bit squishier, or incentivized other item purchases. It doesn't shift class balance anywhere. It's not like Zed is now

As far as the mana regen nerfs: It was not nerfed by 33%. It literally couldn't be. Most of the mana regen on the item actually came from the Unique Passive. So instead of contributing 15-30 mp5 plus up to double your mp5, it contributes 10-20 mp5 plus up to double your base mp5. Additionally, it provides even further mana restore on kill or assist.

What this means is that the item does two things:

It is still the number one mana regeneration item. Don't be silly. The unique passive basically guarantees that. It doesn't also need to be the best AP/CDR and defensive item too.
It works better alongside other mana itemization, because if you buy flat mana (Archangels, RoA) it will restore more on Kill/Assist, or continues to multiply your other sources of regen (Morellonomicon, Archangel's, etc.)

FaerKhanJun 19, 20145 votes

Flash is taken in 99.99% of games, so clearly it needs to be nerfed or removed. That's the logic you're using here...

Your other points are much better though, and I agree.

AlexsmooveJun 19, 20142 votes

Bro that's just ignorance, it's like saying people take potions every game better Nerf it. Like shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. ;)

Penguin EclipseJun 19, 20144 votes

If you wanted to create more choice in itemization, wouldn't it have made sense to not nerf Morellonomicon? The patch notes can say it's a buff, but most champions could use more mana over 5 AP. I know I personally would have much preferred to see the stats changed to 70/75AP with 15 MP/5 with adjustments in gold cost as necessary. Or have just left the item alone. This late-game efficiency thing doesn't fly. 5 AP makes no difference when you already have hundreds of AP.

InsidiousIntentJun 19, 20141 votes

I understand that the item was overused, but don't u think it is a bit Ironic that in the current patch u gave galio mr/lvl because , as Riot said, after chalice's ap nerf he needed a bit of a buff? :p

Moreover, mid match-up is not the only reason for someone to get athene's.. there are way too many magic dmg dealers out there.. both top bot and jungle.. Think about it again pls..

3mptylordJun 19, 20142 votes

Have you ever considered making Mana Font work like Spirit Visage? "Your mana restoration effects are increased by 1% for every 1% of your missing mana."

JackYAquaJun 18, 20145 votes

Traditional mages are supposed to be squishy.
There's still Morellonomicon left.
The mana restore on kills/ assist was buffed -> Cassiopeia is a killer (no nerf).
- Most mages have many AOE spells -> a lot of assists.
Mages have to learn to use their mana efficiently if they want to be 'good' at being a mage.
The item is still massively cost efficient.
Why is building Tear of the Goddess bad?
The 'core' mana regeneration aspect of the item is the Mana Font passive -> the item still fulfills its role as the main mana regeneration item.

SilverclawJun 18, 20142 votes

Rod of Ages has never been a bad item (tanky stats & extra mana/AP), and tear isn't as bad as most people make it out to be anyways - besides, the item wasn't gutted, it's just not the be-all-end-all for mana regen anymore.

CanastusJun 18, 20144 votes

Sorry but taking 33% off its mana-regeneration and almost halving its magic resistence without even adapting the price of the item is a literal gutting. It's entirely unviable now.

12talesJun 18, 20144 votes

It's kinda deceptive to say that its mana regen was cut by 33% when so much of the mana it gives you comes from the passive.

CanastusJun 18, 20142 votes

There's no reason to upgrade chalice then, it already has that passive.

Besides that, Mikael's would be a waste of gold due to total lack of offensive stats and its insane pricing. It really doesn't look good for chalice' line of items.

12talesJun 18, 20141 votes

Potentially. I'm actually really curious to see if people will just get an early chalice for the Mana Font and then start with their offensive itemization - it seems like a reasonably effective build path, but I'd have to crunch the numbers to be sure.

RiotPhreakJun 19, 20148 votes

There's no reason to upgrade chalice then, it already has that passive.

Besides that, Mikael's would be a waste of gold due to total lack of offensive stats and its insane pricing. It really doesn't look good for chalice' line of items.

Chalice is a great mana regen item in itself, that's true. You don't have to upgrade it. Upgrading an item should be because you want what the item gives. Upgrading to Athene's provides you with a bunch of AP and CDR plus the other Unique Passive at a reasonable price.

Upgrading to Mikael's gives you its incredibly Unique Active on top of some other stats alongside.

What what it's worth, I prefer that upgrades be somewhat of a choice. I like when items add a little something different as they move upward, it lets me help tailor my build to the specifics I want.

Ding an SichJun 19, 20141 votes

I feel mentioning it still is one of the last items to give 20% cdr is a huge boon too. It really is still a great item, it just doesn't make you as safe in lane. But that's required given you then either need a champion who basically is the negation of the mr, or makes the sustain irrelevant (Zed was great at this given not only was the mr useless, but regardless of how much mana someone had, he could get them in one go).

Sneak DogJun 18, 20143 votes

Look at its current stats. It still gives the mana font and a chunk of mana regen to go with it. It gives a fine amount of ap and 20% cdr. It is still cost-efficient, just not ridiculously so.

You just might have to get that blue buff to spam your abilities in early/midgame, or pick up some rings and a chalice for your mana regen instead of rushing grail.

Penguin EclipseJun 18, 20142 votes

Blue buff is not always an option. Especially in lower Elo games where the jungler often times doesn't share until after the laning phase.

Sneak DogJun 19, 20142 votes

That's a good thing, it means blue buff is a strategic point to weaken enemy midgame sieges.

RiotPhreakJun 18, 20146 votes

Sorry but taking 33% off its mana-regeneration and almost halving its magic resistence without even adapting the price of the item is a literal gutting. It's entirely unviable now.

It's definitely not un-viable now. I just got out of a game at Diamond I and both mid laners (Twisted Fate, Lulu) went Athene's first item.

KSHarrisonJun 19, 20141 votes

What I wonder is why Athene's still has 117% gold efficiency, while the new Essence Reaver is only at 100% gold efficiency. Their unique passives are quite similar in function. This suggests that Reaver is UP (conversely, that Athene's is still OP).

CanastusJun 19, 20142 votes

I dare say the only reason why this item still gets purchased is due to lack of choice since it's the only offensive item you can get from building chalice, so naturally people are going to buy it. It's still vastly inferior to the original Athene's.

Isn't there any way to change the tier of the item aka changing its build costs/path so it may be on the same level with items like Deathcap, Zhonya's and Deathfire Grasp to justify its former stats?

Penguin EclipseJun 18, 20142 votes

The tear wouldn't be bad if it didn't take so long to charge. And you lose CDR, which isn't very easy to get as an AP mid.

UniversalParagonJun 18, 20142 votes

I would have to agree with this as well. Athene's Unholy Grail is a big item in the laning phase for mages, and with the MR reduction, any AP opponents are now a problem since Athene's is usually the only MR item that some mages will ever purchase in a match.

A Bad NasusJun 18, 20142 votes

Remove's silence from leblanc's q, guts a core mr item for several mages seems legit.

Penguin EclipseJun 18, 20142 votes

I agree with what you are said. However, I personally am more concerned about the lack of viable options beyond the Grail. Pretty much everything has revolved/been-balanced around it.

The tear items do not give CDR and no defensive stats outside of the active which most champions suffer to charge. Therefore not a very viable choice for a lot of champions without significant itemization changes.

Morellonomicon was nerfed (somehow Riot thinks 5 AP is better than 2 MP/5). So it is even more mana constrained than before.

And Rod of Ages is... well Rod of Ages. Not a good choice on a lot of champions.

HellioningJun 19, 20142 votes

I feel Athene's needs some more changes, such as removing the MR or completely removing the item at all. It's a really ridiculous item. It has everything that mages want in decent amounts (it's one of the few remaining 20% cdr items) which means it's basically guaranteed to be bought in every game. It completely removes mana from the equation, removing a good part of learning to be a good player and instead replacing it with 'sure, use your poke spell on cd, not like it's gonna hurt you if you miss.'

Now, if only we can see the same changes with Hydra and BORK...

I neeeeeeeeed itJun 19, 20141 votes

Why did you go so far to nerf this item into the ground?

lol "into the ground"

consequences for mana-hungry champions like Cassiopeia who entirely depend on mana-regeneration and what this kind of change means to them?

manage your mana better, weak champions can be buffed, Athene's still gives a shitton of mana

You're badly hurting traditional mages who already lack any mobility and thus heavily rely on a constant use of their abilities to zone their opponents or just to keep up with farming.

Mobility creep is another problem entirely

etc. etc.