[4.9] Live Gameplay Patch Forecast

7. Jungle XP

We have bigger plans for the jungle, but currently we're seeing problems where junglers are getting really far ahead of the game, especially if they have a strong start. We think it might have to do with lane EXP versus monster EXP, as lane minion EXP doesn't scale with average champion level, but jungle monster EXP does. Basically a snowballing jungler gets his teammates some kills, they get levels and bring up the average level of the game, and then the jungler gets even more experience as he clears camps for additional rewards. No other lanes get this kind of bonus, and we've always been aware of strong junglers controlling the pace of the game, so we're looking for ways to tone that down.

I'm very, very concerned about this change to be honest. While I understand that some junglers with strong ganks and fast clear times (Xin Zhao, Udyr, and Nocturne especially) are able to get some pretty solid level advantages, I'm very worried that this will be yet another nerf to the tank junglers who are already outside the current meta. Nautilus, Maokai, Malphite, and even Shen were all potent and powerful jungle picks at different points throughout previous seasons, but with the implementation of the Spirit Stone changes and the addition of Feral Flare, they are all but unplayable right now due to the speed which fighter and bruiser junglers can clear the jungle and still have time to gank, all while being much more sustained due to their higher damage output.

Another thing to keep in mind is the current "Madstone" build going around where a jungler builds a Madred's Razors and Spirit Stone simultaneously for infinite sustain and incredible clear time in the jungle, which snowballs into absolutely massive advantages, especially over players who don't know of the tactic right now. I would suggest that one way to slow these oppressive junglers would be restricting the jungle items not as a GP10 item as they currently are, but by limiting junglers to only having one item built with a Hunter's Machete. The ability for a jungle tank to pick up something like a Talisman would be incredibly powerful for them and possibly allow champions like Nautilus, Skarner, and the like to see play time that they haven't seen since the GP10 changes and the removal of their ability to purchase Shurelia's Reverie, now Talisman. Some jungle tanks could also make great use of things like Face of the Mountain, with Relic Shield being a nice item for junglers to tax lanes after ganking them and so on. These items would be all but worthless to the current powerhouse junglers while allowing tank junglers back into the meta with the utility items they need to really bring the heat in team fights and ganks.

"Kayle right now is being played as an AP-scaling supportive mobile ADC because of her consistent burst, her high ramping damage and her high utility."

While I understand putting Kayle into words might be difficult, this description is a sensationalist exaggeration of Kayle's strengths. She is an AP scaling supportive autoattack based carry with burst mobility, with high ramping DPS and strong windows of utility. She is not a "mobile ADC" because, for one, she isn't an ADC, and her mobility isn't an instantaneous movement spell nor does she have high base movement speed. She is on the harder scale of midlaners to position with because she deals her damage at 525 range with only a high cd speed burst to aid her that also forces her into the choice of using for heal or repositioning purpose. This renders her rather immobile in the midlane ecosystem. Also, there is no such thing as "consistent burst." A champ either has burst or DPS. Lich Bane is the culprit of something like "consistent burst;" address that if you have issues with it, but Kayle's kit offers nothing of the sort.

On the topic of her nerfs, I can't understand why you've decided to do so or take this approach. 525 is already low range for an autoattacker, what you propose is absurdly severe and doesn't address any problem she might pose. The percieved problem with Kayle isn't she can't be reached, that's preposterous. Under this scope, Caitlyn might as well be immortal.

The new build is problematic, but there are are far more elegant solutions for this issue than removing her from viability by giving her literally Urgot range. If she needs more risk, then do the thing every Kayle detractor has always rallied for: give her ultimate a higher cooldown. She has her ult ready for every teamfight and sometimes can afford to use it TWICE. If you nerf her ult CD you create windows in which to force fights because she has to fight at short range and always relies on having her ult to insure she will get autos off even if she dies. THIS addresses the problem you cite, "having no weaknesses" which is also an exaggeration. She is weak to CC, AS reduction, reengagements, target changes and assassination provided her ult is unavailable. Most of these solutions require team coordination, which is why she's a good solo queue champion.

On competitive, the newfound build seems to be overwhelming, but you need not to gut her to fix the issue: you can code e so it isn't considered ranged and inhibit Runaan's use, or make it so the secondary bolts don't apply her passive (only on primary target). If you don't want to address the item (you should, then see how she dissapears once more like the FotM she is), you can make e's splash damage unable to apply her passive. If this proves to be insufficient, you can try to nerf e's slash radius, making her even more position intensive, and her enemies better equipped for fighting against her (space out).

My point is please, don't exaggerate what Kayle can do, don't downplay what she can't, address the real issues and don't target her before she can find opposition naturally (Akali murders Kayle, a fact not widely known). Don't pretend a range nerf isn't the most severe an AA based champion can receive. Be GRADUAL in any changes you apply on her and gather data before going further if needed. This is a champion who received a 0.4 AP nerf on top of a 0.25 AP nerf on Lich Bane which was a linchpin item on her.

Her ult is the issue, try a flat 120 second CD (huge nerf) and you'll see immediate changes.

"Hurr durr. How do we fix Kha'zix? He's so problematic. He's being played and built like a brute-force fighter who can initiate a team fight while also being able to survive to clean it up. We can't find out what the problem is though!!!"

This is the kind of stuff that makes people question you balance team. He isn't being build any more tanky than any other fighter/bruiser. Look: http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Kha'zix

How do you not realize the problem? How do you not understand the power of a flat 50% damage mitigation? Honestly. People only started evolving his ult and playing him more as a distraction initiator when you buffed his ult in 3.08, and then continued to increase the time in which he was stealth, and nerfed his other evolutions. How do you not understand how strong his ult evolution is? Do you know what that is? Do you know what you gave a god damn dps assassin??? You gave him an Alistar ult, mixed with a Twitch Q. Do you know how stupid that is? It's not a weaker version or something. It's just as strong as those abilities. 50% damage reduction, stealth, movespeed.

Other champs (they're called tanks btw), spend the entire game trying to achieve that amount of tankiness. Their runes. Their masteries. Their entire item builds. Some barely even get more tanky than that. "Oh but they're tanky all the time so it's ok." NO. It doesn't make any difference. He's tanky when he needs it. He can activate it as abilities are getting thrown at him. And you give this to a champ with one of the highest single target burst AND sustained damages in the game (from level 1 all the way to level 18).

I would rather have the old W evolve Manamune poke-until-you-one-shot-everything Kha'zix than this new bullshit tank dps assassin. I understand that you changed him back then because you "want champs to more accurately fit their archetypes" and all that bullshit. But you can't say you have that philosophy, and then GIVE A DPS ASSASSIN 50% DAMAGE REDUCTION. Hell, while we're at it, let's give Leblanc 50% damage reduction too. When she clones maybe? Ah who gives a shit she'll be 90% ban rate anyways.

Not only is this a bullshit contradiction of philosophy, there isn't even "counterplay" to it. It's not "Kha'zix gets 50% damage reduction against the first ability/attack that hits him" or something. It's "Press this R button here when shit starts getting thrown at you and you won't take damage". Do you know how fucking stupid it is when you throw down a pink ward, your whole team throws everything down they have at Kha'zix, and he still walks away with a few hundred health after murdering or near murdering your adc? Why the hell would you give tank stats to Kha'zix? Honestly? Not only does % damage reduction effectively give him twice the health, it makes shields twice as effective. As well as heals, regen, reduces their lifesteal/vamp, etc.. Do you still not understand the power of 50% damage reduction?

Pardon my fucking french, but what the fuck? Who commands all of this? Hire me. Just for a day. Let me tell the balance department things to change. Test them. Watch the community stop hating on the team so much. Obviously this is just a joke. You more than likely haven't even read this far, and if you have, you're probably going to disregard everything I've said simply because I'm cussing and implying that your balance team are dumb asses. But obviously there's a problem. Idk if it's too much mutual respect when certain people are just bad at their jobs and have bad judgement. Or if seniority opinion is overvalued. Or if the balance team simply doesn't have enough resources. Or if the team is full of perfectionists who's egos have reached a new standard over the years that brings them too much shame to bring their older amateur work into viability - and on the same note, are too proud to nerf things that they are proud of and/or invested in. Idk. It could be a multitude of reasons. Riot is a very amateur company with recycled talent. Take advice more often.

The LB changes on PBE seem pretty crazy atm. Is this intentional with you guys planning to slowly scale the values back up over time to a decent value (basically testing very low values to see how much they affect her) or did you guys think that she was exceptionally out of line? And since you mention DFG i'll offtopic ask, why does it increase all damage dealt? It's only ever bought as a selfish damage amp so why does it increase the damage from your whole team?

The Kayle nerf also seems pretty strong, part of me wonders if this is a case of gutting a champion until a rework is done (she needs one) though I doubt it'll affect her much just like all the previous nerfs because as long as she keeps that disgusting ultimate on that super short cooldown she'll always be super strong.

It is hard to say how to regulate le blancs power without making her to weak...

The only thing I find most frustrating when facing her is her ability to use distortion and instantly return to the initial cast point. If it had a .5-.75 second internal CD before you could jump back I think it would really help make it feel like there is an actual risk to using the spell, whether it be for trading or farming.

With regard to Braum I don't think the speed in which players are picking him up and doing well with him is necessarily a bad thing. To me that means he has a solid and well made design. His early harass is a bit strong though, changing winters bite's scaling to bonus health from max health would be worth trying out if changing the base values dont seem to work out.

Skarner? :(

LeBlanc currently has (and has had very consistently) an extremely low win rate in soloqueue across every MMR. I know that win rates aren't the best way to evaluate champion power, but is there something else suggesting she's problematic outside of competitive play? How do you plan to deal with the fact that bringing her in line in competitive play may leave her unplayable outside that environment?

3. Kayle

Nerf her Ult cooldowns. It is too short for how powerful an effect it can be.

are you guys going to buff up early game dragon again back to Pre S4 values? that is the only way to stop the constant laneswaps

I think the main problem with s R is the fact that he comes too slowly after the warning pops up to the enemy players. Unless they are CC'd down or engaged in a fight with your allies, it's basically a gauranteed miss because every single champion is fast enough to clear out of the circle before Pantheon hits. It works great in team fights, causing the enemies to disengage, but when you are trying to stop a BD or someone from getting a turret or something, you mostly end up just wasting your R as they can just run out of it without even having to worry that you'll ever come down in time. It'd just be nice to see at least one Pantheon actually land the damage portion of his R(and not just use it for the mobility to jump stun an enemy) without being one of the exceptional few who have completely mastered its timing relative to enemy position.

I frankly believe that nerfing the junglers as a whole will just make people more unwillingly to run them. Even so, to trust that people would like to run tanky junglers in response, cause they will have eventually to survive while having less gold or less xp and facing more dangerous jungler monsters, is just delusional. I think we all know that this is a game which GREATLY favors mobility over tankyness. Expecially in the jungler role, as you want to get kills and assists and get ahead. An immobile, skill-shooting Nautilus will never be played as a slowing, jumping, invisible Kha'Zix which deals even that much damage.

Nerfing the jungle will just make the most powerful champs more spammed, while the occasional Nocturnes or Shacos will have an even harder time than now. The end result would be almost nothing: more Lee Sin and Kha'ZiX in the jungle, as it is now. Hardly a deal in exchange for nerfing the game to all people who occasionaly like to run other champs.