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Would a Rioter like to explain to me why

Smoot·4/6/2014, 9:02:18 PM·4 votes·1,547 views

When looking at a champion who Riot proposes as troublesome, therefore putting said champion into the "rework list", you absolutely, positively, without any bias or after-thought, MUST give that champion a rework?

What exactly about Rengar's kit did you feel deserved him the entire rework? Would it not have been better to just change the numbers (base damage, ad ratios, blah blah) and leave him to the niche audience that you as a company planned on releasing him to in the first place?

Was taking away his core identity as a predatory assassin objectively better than just scaling him down, or scaling him up where he needed to be?

I really am trying to create an honest conversation here, because I am legitimately curious as to how these decisions are made. As such, because everyone seems to be drooling over the beta forums, I'll post this thread there as well. Hopefully someone will try and answer this question, preferably a red.

18 Comments

RiotMorello4/7/2014, 7:05:35 PM13 votes

For reworks that are design-driven, it usually comes from "if this character is ever good, he'd have to be nerfed." This analysis is driven by their play pattern, tradeoff set, and core decision-tree.

In Rengar's case, there were a few problems that made him not balancable;

  • Rengar's stealth is extremely good at bypassing wards, peeling and other defensive measures. Combined with good CC and high burst, this meant Rengar's success was wholly dependent on this - with no respect to how he has to overcome obstacles, interact or have any way to modify the context of how he performed. This means Rengar does what he does, and if he's good at basic League play, you'll lose your MVP without much recourse (and therefore likely teamfights/lane).

  • Rengar's was somewhere between "Fighter" and "Assassin." (Hint, if you ever see a class combined with another at the same time, instead of a choice between them based on build etc, then that guy is likely BS). His pattern asked you to build up, but his damage was that of a burst assassin - incompatible gameplay levers.

Scruffy has a couple more he was looking at, in the guts. I know there's some frustrating about Rengar because we changed him from an Assassin into a Fighter, but on these characters, a choice DOES have to be made.

The missing piece is that, if we'd chose Assassin, Rengar's Stealth would have disappeared, or his burst still lowered. To add reasonable decision-making and interaction, this incompatibility would have kept Rengar knee-capped forever, or would have invalidated other choices because you knew he'd get the job done without much uncertainty. Characters (yes, even Assassins) need context to be healthy.

So, we thought the Stealth and Hunter identities were MORE important than the power profile. The defining feature of Rengar is not "he bursts", but is instead his ult, resource mechanic, Bonetooth, and being an aggressive character. I still think that's the right choice looking at the alternatives (keep weak forever, or remove entire skills).

Changing power profiles is going to happen with almost every character that's overloaded - whether it's Grags, Xerath, Heimerdinger, or Rengar. One thing we learned a lot from on the Skarner rework was that while there will be things we need to remove for health, we need to make sure there's a reason that's EXCITING to play the character still - even if it's a different thing to be excited about mechanically (and in fact, we're going to go back a little on Skarner's changes as a result).

ModCaptainMårvelous4/6/2014, 10:12:16 PM5 votes

To be honest, I feel a fair amount of these "reworks" are just tweaking or small edits. Like, many people say Taric got a rework or two because elements of his kit changed (His passive, his Q's cooldown reduction bonus, R, etc.). However, I don't really feel that he's been reworked. Changed a bit, sure, but I don't feel the core of his gameplay really changed.

Same with the recent Rengar and Gragas "reworks". The core way they are is still relatively the same, they just had some tweaks to readjust how they are. I think Riot uses "Rework" as too much of a blanket term to encompass kit changes that go beyond simple range/number tweaks.

Sir ArmaMalum4/6/2014, 9:26:43 PM3 votes

I can actually say the majority of the 'need to rework' came from his ultimate's interaction with counterplay. The fact that he could jump from anywhere on anyone and, if given simply time, that poor sod could be killed before they could literally do anything (double Q, W combo). Now that felt great for the Rengar player, I can myself testify it was awesome, but not so much if at all for the receiver.

Combine that with the ms and stealth being combined at the same time made splitpushing Rengar too favorable and too popular. Let's face it, dedicated split-pushing is not a fun strat to use or play against.

The bola strike I think was just something that came along during the re-work, as Kog'maw had the same thing happen to him.

As a PBE tester, the champion level based empowered stats were something that came later, I believe just for better tuning after the whole thing was juggled around a bit.

Obviously I'm no red though...

Dancing Ninja4/6/2014, 9:31:00 PM3 votes

I think the reason he was reworked was due to the fact that he could jump on someone without anywarning 100-0 said champion in a second and possibly make it out without any counterplay other than a pink ward but thats just my 2 cents. :)

GhostStalker4/7/2014, 8:16:30 PM2 votes

Rengar's early game is now terrible though. Beyond terrible. Worse than it was before. Can we make this better? A LOT better?

Nátural4/8/2014, 3:22:48 PM2 votes

Just let Rengar become an assassin again. Take away his stealth from his ult, give him an escape mechanism and raise his burst potential. We rather have that than make Rengar a fighter that has lower damage and an ultimate that warns people when you're near. We didn't fall in love with Rengar because of his stealth, we fell in love with him because of his passive and his assassin play style! Please take this into consideration!

Smoot4/6/2014, 9:25:50 PM2 votes

I don't know how this forum works, right now I would be bumping in GD, so as a precaution I will do so now. Please feel free to tell me if I need to bump or not, and I won't if it isn't necessary.

Turtleguy84/7/2014, 3:43:56 PM2 votes

Gragas Could 1 shot your carry with a ult and 1 barrel he had infinite sustain and a great initiate/escape. Yes they did disguise it as a "rework" but he was just a little OP. Rengar also, take out some 1 100 to 0 in seconds and a super snowbally champion. You can's miss any of his abilities so he is very easy to combo. It is funny how bad noobs are doing with him now that they cant stick to them with his e anymore. Hope this helped clarify.

Whyu4/7/2014, 6:17:37 PM2 votes

It's a loaded question that's based on a false premise.

You can have a champion that's core identity is that of a predatory assassin while promoting healthy game play.

Old Rengar wasn't healthy for the game and certainly wasn't much fun to play against.

It's too soon to tell if "new" Rengar is any better than the "old" Rengar.