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Ideas for quality of life improvements for our favorite falconer Quinn.

ikNBHfkJjO·2/21/2014, 9:58:45 AM·11 votes·482 views

First of let me start start with saying that this is actually an hommage to the recently released post with the same idea some fellow Quinn acolyte had, but i kinda came too late to the party and i don't seem to be able to find it, so i can't link to it right now.

tl:dr: This post aims to showcase the major issues which Quinn has and many ideas to improve that to a point so that her overall enjoyment increases for everyone (hopefully - mostly for her though), but keep in mind that she is still different than others and that is fine.

Edit: Added some amazing community suggestions!

Let me say that i am no diamond player or whatever, i'm just a long time League of Legends player and overall a rather seasoned gamer (no i am not that old). So for me it has become quite unbelievable how many games struggle to keep some of their content viable or have an overall picture as to where and when to really do something about issues. You could say i've seen some shit, but i am no pr0, just a veteran gamer at heart which strives to become an omnigamer in his preferred games to get the most out of it.

Now that i was boringly introduced, let me give you a statement on Quinn and that is gonna sound harsher than it is, but it has stuck into my head after i've read it some time ago by a fellow player. Here we go: Riot's decision to make Quinn a different kind of markswoman in combination with half assed design decisions left her in a special state where her reliability issues make her so very amazingly different as a failure instead of an interesting, but cohesive design which has viability.

The simple fact that some find her to be perfectly fine hurts me, but that is also due to the fact that i am branded with oblivious people from other games, so please don't hate on me if i may bash you in some unconscious way, but then again, i've seen some shit you could say cough BF4 (recent example) cough. I will now just jump into my thoughts about decisions of her kit Riot made and i will give my humble suggestions about what could be done. This will result in multiple options which are not meant to be used all at once of course, but multiple options could be used if balanced right.

Her auto attack range of 525

I personally see Quinn as a Marksman hunter. She has the option to blind them and in addition burst them through modified auto attacks from her passive and E. In addition Quinn (actually she switches positions with a magically grown Valor - Lulu's magical potions i guess) can enter a mobile melee form to enter another ADC's zone they don't want you: up close. So overall her slightly reduced range is neglible you could say, IF (!!!) her kit would live up to what i've described in the reliability department. In addition a champion like Vayne has a range of 550 which makes in comparison zero sense. If Rito would have just reduced Vayne's range also to 525 in the past they could have probably skipped a lot of nerfs that she had to endure, but that's another thread worth of discussion i suppose.

So would i recommend changing her AA range ? Not really, because i do not see it as the issue.

Quinn's passive called Harrier

I'd like you to use this link to her wiki if you are not familiar with her abilites, thank you.

Now this is probably one of the more severe issues when it comes to think about Quinn. It is a random ability which holds most of her damage potential in her early game, or whenever actually, inside her champion kit for dueling tangos.

  • Since her range is rather low and her Q harder to land thanks to its missile width (or whatever it makes it so in laning phase), Quinn should have ability to mark a target in her line of sight, or modified through wards or a support of course, up to a set maximum range with the simple press of a right click to attack on the enemy champion for example (without executing the attack). Since champions are favored to begin with it shouldn't matter too much if you make a few last hits in between, but Valor at least knows that you want that target marked with Harrier and not whatever randomly else.

Simple version: See champion inside ~1250 range > Right click on them and the passive locks this champion as next Harrier target as long as maximum range isn't broken, but it's not instant, because this obviously requires a delay > Profit - Enjoy and repeat ! :>

  • Another idea is to be able to proc Harrier with your abilities. This would then possibly require a damage nerf on her passive, even though only a sligt one.

The Blinding Assault also called Q

This is a ranged skillshot which is rather atrocious to use, because it gets so easily stuck into a target you don't want to actually hit. It requires a far greater open path than it should in my opinion, in addition to always be ever so slightly too short... i don't know. If you hit it, it can make another ranged carry go furious though, but it's essential to Quinn and it's not like others have no options themselves to make you want punch the screen.

  • Maybe the missile width or hitbox detection needs some work, so that you can actually better use it to fire through minions. I do not forget that it kinda has an explosion when it collides, but it's not like it's that big.

  • If the Blinding Assault reaches its maximum range it could explode as it would hit something so that it has at least, but the blinding effect wouldn't be applied perhaps, just the damage.

  • Q becomes a homing missile if a target is marked, which ignores any unit collision except the marked target. This would require a range nerf for the homing effect by at least a third, but it could be a viable addition in my opinion. So it would automatically home inside of say ~700 range to the marked target (similar to Katarinas auto ultimate lock on or old Hemrdingers W missiles) but would keep its skillshot characteristics when you activate it outside of that range.

The W affair with her Heightened Senses

Easy put, all there is required are more options to keep the passive component in Quinn's form other than just proccing Harrier. Ways to force it would be nice, outside of the ultimate, but that's a little bit too much i'm arguing with myself.

  • Being able to get the passive component by simply last hitting (similar to Varus) alone would help her a lot. Probably giving her the option to stack its time, while reducing single stacks of course, could also be considered (Fiora could lend her a hand at stacking passives as a fellow Demacian).

Quinn's E is the only ability i wouldn't change anything about - I'm open to suggestions though :>

Really!

R - Tag Team

This ability takes a big part in defining Quinn and Valor (as this champion would be called if the in game client wouldn't fuck it up). This ability has the audacity to ask for initial Mana costs and giving us a melee fighter which is rather well suited towards a roaming or escape tool. The best part is that the abilities we had as Quinn become half assed melee versions and still cost Mana ? Why ? This is the single most BS thing in her kit. Makes no sense to me considering comparisons, which are still not in the right place you may suggest, because Quinn tries to be different. The second activation is fine as making it stronger would overflow her power level i guess. Did i mention shared cooldowns ? In horrible addition you lose any possible way of utilizing the Harrier passive, for extra attack speed. This is something i'd change immediatly.

  • Remove the mana costs of the angry bird form abilites Q,W and E, since they're already requiring you to take a big risk, so why asking us to deplenish our mana pool even further after actually paying mana to get into this state to begin with. Makes no sense to me to be like it is right now!

  • I would gladly sacrifice some of that bonus attack speed Valor receives for being able to kinda use the Harrier passive. This ultimate should be a hit and run melee option and not a sustained fighter role which it obviously sucks to be.

  • Maybe, just maybe give Skystrike aditional AP scaling.

  • Shared cooldowns from the human and bird form kinda suck heavily, especially for her basically being a "transform" champion which usually is not bound by that, but i don't them to be deplenished when transforming, just lowered maybe.

  • Skystrikes maximum damage should cap at 75% missing HP and not at 100% as it is now, which kinda defeats the purpose of having a finisher in the first place.

  • Tag Teams cooldown should start when initially activated and not when it is over.

~ Fin ~

Damn, this actually took me quite some while to write up. I hope you kinda enjoyed it and a healthy discussion about some of the ideas could emerge. I wouldn't mind if someone could also post the link to the previous recent Quinn discusion. I'd like to add that english is not my first language, so telling me where i messed up may help me a lot in the future ;)

"Demacia needs heroes."

13 Comments

Worst Ezreal SA2/21/2014, 10:13:00 AM6 votes

Also, make it so that her ult does it's max damage at 25% of the opponents health, not 0%, so that you can actually get max damage if you time it right.

Anonagon2/21/2014, 11:19:37 PM3 votes

First off I'd like to say I have already made a discussion suggesting two QoL buffs, I'll post a short version here but here is my full post: http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/balance/fpXkRGHB-riot-quinn-ult-qol-buffs-that-you-absolutely-need-to-do

My two suggested QoL buffs for Quinn are:

  1. Skystrike damage caps at 75% missingHP, not 100%, so you can actually achieve maximum damage, and 2. Tag Team cooldown starts when she starts her ult, not when she ends it. The buffs are pretty self explanatory, but if you really don't get them I explain them in my thread.

Now let me talk about your suggestions. I'm not going to address them all, but only specific ones I have comments on.

I think Harrier will be fine once they finish putting the timer on it. My only issue with it is when I E when Valor is marking someone, so one of the procs is wasted, but that will be fixed with the timer fix.

Q becomes a homing missile if a target is marked, which ignores any unit collision except the marked target. This would require a range nerf for the homing effect by at least a third, but it could be a viable addition in my opinion. So it would automatically home inside of say ~700 range to the marked target (similar to Katarinas auto ultimate lock on or old Hemrdingers W missiles) but would keep its skillshot characteristics when you activate it outside of that range.

While I like your two other Q suggestions, in particular the "explodes at end" one, I do not like this third suggestion. While it is a pretty clever idea, I don't think Quinn needs some drastic change like this. Also, it would not make sense when it comes to actually fighting. In a duel or skirmish, Quinn should want to proc her passive as soon as possible to gain her W boost. This would encourage her to wait for her to cast Q, potentially letting an enemy get away.

W

I don't think W needs to stack, but the idea of getting it for killing minions would be nice (but kind of too similar to Varus, no?). Maybe she could get 1/3 or 1/4 the proc on basic attacks, and the full proc on a Harrier attack?

E

Quinn shouldn't be hit by Voli or Singed's flips during E. That is the only thing that needs fixing about E.

Remove the mana costs of the angry bird form abilites Q,W and E, since they're already requiring you to take a big risk, so why asking us to deplenish our mana pool even further after actually paying mana to get into this state to begin with. Makes no sense to me to be like it is right now!

Yes please!

Shared cooldowns from the human and bird form kinda suck heavily, especially for her basically being a "transform" champion which usually is not bound by that.

Hell no. Would be broken overpowered. Her burst is already really high for an ADC, so people need to stop suggesting we give her two spell rotations with no gap in-between. Remember that her ultimate really isn't a "transform" ultimate. Its a steroid. Its basically Riven's ult (with a weaker execute, but thats not the point.). Should Riven's ult reset her cooldowns? I think not.

GhastlyGhoulMan2/21/2014, 11:45:05 PM3 votes

I think her biggest issue is that she STILL doesn't have a sliding penguin skin. That will fix everything.

Pryotra2/22/2014, 4:13:00 PM2 votes

First of let me start start with saying that this is actually an hommage to the recently released post with the same idea some fellow Quinn acolyte had, but i kinda came too late to the party...

This is a problem with the beta. Not only are you rebooting the topic because you were too late to the party to discuss it, but you had issues finding the topic in question. Please make a post in site feed back about it.

As for Quinn, while I have only a little play with her, I feel that proccing harrier whilst in Valor mode makes no sense. Harrier means that Valor gives clear eyes on moments of weakness for quinn to shoot. How would that play out for Valor being on the ground?

Also, I like the interactions on W with demacians, if that was what you were suggesting. Sounds very lore friendly, and personally I think it would be cool if more interactions like this existed in a lore friendly way.

Only other thing is that I feel that the Harrier forced proc is a little abusable to zone enemies. Consta mark them, and everytime it shows up start making like you are running up, maybe throw Q at them or something. If they don't back off, they fight at a significant disadvantage. If they do, you get free last hits while they wait out of range for it too cool off.

Sire Hippington2/25/2014, 7:20:27 PM2 votes

I also think Quinn could use some love.

Her overall design is pretty great, but her kit has serveral flaws.

Her Passive: It'S just to Random, not reliable enough for how important it is to her Kit

Simple version: See champion inside ~1250 range > Right click on them and the passive locks this champion as next Harrier target as long as maximum range isn't broken, but it's not instant, because this obviously requires a delay > Profit - Enjoy and repeat ! :>

I realy like that idea, would solve alot problems for Quinn. An timer would also be realy helpfull so u see when Valor is about choosing the next target.

Her Q: it's fine for me, exploding on maxrange would be nice, but it doesn't realy need buffs/changes

Her W: Overall good, but it might be an good idea giving her the ms-buff while walking towards marked targets, so she can make better use of her passive and gets better chasing. For a shortranged carry witout massive dmg(like vayne), she lacks chaseing potential.

Her E: An idea wich would increase her skillcap and make her much more fun to play: U click at ut target, and then on an other point to choose the direction u want to jump to after the dash, so u can use it to cut off enemie escape paths and use it for better positioning in fights to make up for the her low range. The range probably would need some tweaks then. (If u don't know what i mean, imagine it to be like Victors laser, but u need an enemy as staring point and then choose the direction in wich Quinn would jump after dashing to the enemy)

Her Ult: First, I totally support the idea of free casts during her ult form.

Second, the shared cds: The Q is performt by Valor even in human form, so it makes sense it has shared cd lore wise, and her allin burst would be to high so it also makes sens gameplay wise.

Her W is also performt by valor, so shared cds are ok, and it wouldn't realy change much gamplywise if u could use ur ult to reset the W.

*Her E is performed by quin in normal form, and by valor in ult form, so it wouldn't make sens to have shared cd lorewise, and all other melee/range shapeshifters have an gapcloser aviable as soon as they shift to melee, so not haveing shared cd on ult E and human E would also make sens gamplay wise(the dmg could get slightly reduced then even though it's not very high anyway) *

Third, the pros and cons of valor in gnerall: Currently, all the ult offers is mobillity and the executr move, u don't realy get more dmg as u loose the passive, and 40% more as can hardly compensate that, while getting melee is a huge disadvatage.

Her Ult form either needs to focuse on sustained figthing, or on hit and run.

For Sustained fighting, she just would need some extra defense in Valor form, some %-dmg reduction or just 20/30/40 armor/mr(Befor u ask why a Bird should get increased armor, armor in games usually reflects the abillity to reduce physical dmg, wich also can be done by evasion(In WC3, agillity increases armor for example))

For Hit and Run, Valor should loose the aditional 40% as, but gain the passive, like every 10 sec, Quinn shoots at the target Valor is attacking, every AA reduces the cd by x-sec, the cd should be shared with the humanform passive to prevent absurd burst. It would also make sens lorewise, as Quinn should still lurke somwhere around and shoot on marked Targets, it would fit the tag-team theme. The cds of Q and E could aldo be a bit lower in Valor form so he can do the hit and run combo more often, and some more infight ms would also help retreat after the burst. It would also make more sens lorewise that a bird goes for quick strikes and then retreads instead of sticking to a target.

wow, that became a much longer post than i would have thought...anyway, english is not my first language so pardon any grammar/spelling mistakes

Eyrgos2/21/2014, 7:32:29 PM1 votes

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=43414044#post43414044

Knight Devout2/22/2014, 10:00:04 AM1 votes

Played Quinn just 2 or 3 times. I really like the theme and the "intended" niche role Riot had in plan for her, but I think, for the reason you mentioned (mainly, Tag Team losing her passive procs, Tag Team not starting its cooldown timer until you use Skystrike, and the fact that Harrier is strong but unpredictable) she still struggles to play well even when used as her game design suggests.

Especially Tag Team, sometimes you are unsure if it would be better to drop it for getting some more Harrier strike or keeping it up for chasing or running.