Feral Flare has to go.

N49·May 10, 2014·1 votes·737 views

I have just come out from one of the most unpleasant games in my life.

I played support Ashe, and nobody was hostile about it.

Botlane(mostly me) got countered in select, and lost lane hard, and nobody was a hostile about that either.

We lost 2 dragons and a Baron, in no small part because I warded poorly and missed my ults, and nobody was in any way hostile about it.

In the end, we pulled it together, and everything started to click, we won a bunch of team fights in a pretty decisive fashion, and emerged victorious.

By all standards, this game should have been the highlight of nearly 4 years I've been playing League of Legends, and it was... a negative one.

The sheer, undiluted vitrol spewed by our jungler throughout the game turned what would have otherwise been the most fun game in my life(a ranked one too), into something so unpleasant that I feel the necessity to share the experience as feedback regarding its source...

Feral Flare

Whenever we'd ask our jungler to gank, he'd rage about stacking the flare.

Whenever someone even came close to a monster camp, he'd rage about stealing flare stacks.

When we lost(or he didn't last hit on) Baron/Dragon, he'd rage about flare stacks.

For 90% of the game, all he did was stacking the flare. He'd only join fights if it was a shorter distance than the next monster camp, and only if it was essentially already won, to stack the flare.

The whole stacking mechanic is the most toxic thing that has ever been put into the game and junglers stacking the flare instead of helping their teams, especially in lower levels of play, has become the norm rather than the extreme. This isn't the first time I've seen a jungler neglect teamwork to stack the flare, and even adding the assists dosen't quite help.

A single item has turned what was otherwise a very positive game, into a festival of childish arguments(because while I got a pass on my Ashe, our jungler got called out on their "low contribution") and hostility.

The item(still) mechanically enables the jungler to ignore the rest of the team, and justify it as working towards the endgame. That is wrong, and it has to go away.

12 Comments

ShadowNinetailsMay 10, 20143 votes

While that does suck, there have been stacking mechanics in the game long before Feral Flare was brought in with Nasus Veigar Sion . In a way, item 3069 item 3092 item 3401 item 3207 item 3209 item 3206 have stacking mechanisms too (I know I've felt that tug to go clear a camp and get some of those Conservation stacks out or gotten caught out trying to poke an enemy because I had 3 stacks on Frost Queen).

It's just a matter of managing risk vs reward. This guy clearly figured the reward of +1 dmg on hit and 50ish gold was more important than the team getting 725 gold or winning a fight and being able to take or defend turrets. Obviously that wasn't the case, but I wouldn't blame it on the Flare, I'd blame it on the player. I know when I run Flare, that doesn't stop me from ganking (especially now that kills/assists count toward the transformation).

Kind of backward to say "don't hate the game, hate the player" but it fits. We've all had that jungler that wants to stack Flare all day just like we've all had that Nasus who never leaves Top lane or that Vayne that never leaves Bot lane (I've seriously had one say "Only 2000g until IE, don't fight") or that Ryze that's never with the team because he wants item 3040 AND item 3042 because he saw it on Mobafire. Just ignore him, take a walk to clear your head, and hit "Play Again".

N49May 11, 20141 votes

The thing is, that none of the champions you mention generate a problem by farming.

Jungler is supposed to help out the team by establishing threat.

Veigar or Nasus can both easily leave a lane to help out if need be, and return to plenty of minions that kept pushing. There is a completely different dynamic governing their stacking, and a different set of expectations for the champions themselves, and the roles they usually are played in. Not to mention the much higher return on the time invested, especially compared to the opportunity costs involved.

Same applies to the items you list, and that's just the gameplay side of things.

The gist of the issue is the uncooperative playstyle that the item enables, and the hostility that results from that. Unlike the tear items, there is no cap on stacking. Unlike the spirit stone items, there is no window during which you're not losing your benefits if you do gank. Unlike Nasus or Veigar, you don't go in knowing what to expect.

All this generates a situation where the jungler can by choice cripple their team, with the delusion that he is working towards a meaningful endgame benefit. It creates a conflict of interests that breeds pointless arguments, and escalating hostility.

MackleDogeMay 11, 20141 votes

The very existence of carry junglers provides a conflict of interest in the game. Do I take this kill or do I trust this random mid laner to take the kills from every gank and carry since I won't be able to? There are always going to be conflicts of interest in the game. Always. That is why you hear about the central focus of professional teams being specific players i.e. they focus their gold onto Faker, they let DoubleLift afk farm bottom lane, they prioritize getting ZionSpartan, Meteos, or XPeke their best champions. It's just how the game works. Just removing an item because people don't know how to use it is ridiculous.

ShadowNinetailsMay 11, 20142 votes

(Apparently there's a max character limit so...1/2)

Jungler is supposed to help out the team by establishing threat.

Never once since Feral Flare was introduced have I ever thought "Oh it's a XinZhao . He's probably gonna be stacking Flare for 40 mintues, so I don't have to ward." I don't even...just typing that in a facetious way hurt my soul as a support main. Even though YOU see them killing Wraiths for the umpteenth time, that doesn't mean THEY see them killing Wraiths. They're probably shitting their pants because they just KNOW that he's in that bush they don't have a ward for and that makes them hold back their aggression until they see him somewhere else. That's why the jungler exists rather than having duo top.

Veigar or Nasus can both easily leave a lane to help out if need be, and return to plenty of minions that kept pushing.

But then we've all had that one Veigar or Nasus that DIDN'T leave lane. Hence the example. Additionally, the jungler can also leave jungle and help much more easily since the monsters aren't going to die to other monsters and they're already closer to 2 of the lanes than 2 other people on the team. Whether or not they choose to is a reflection on the player, not the item they use.

Unlike the tear items, there is no cap on stacking.

Have you ever tried getting both tear items in one match? If you were somehow able to have both item 3003 and item 3004 from the start of the game and an ability to use continuously every 4 seconds, you would still be unable to get item 3040 and item 3042 before 18:45 because of the cooldown on the Mana Charge passive. Add in the time to actually acquire the items, stopping your Tear stacking to heal, replenish mana, escape from a gank, maybe go to another lane to help with a tower push, help with a dragon fight...you're talking about at least 45 minutes. I'm pretty sure even Flare junglers would be with the team by then.

Unlike the spirit stone items, there is no window during which you're not losing your benefits if you do gank.

Do you even Conservation, bro? Let's say I'm wanting to gank top lane. There's only 2 ways this works without losing out on Conservation stacks: 1. Playing as Shyvana Udyr Rammus or Hecarim , clear wolves or Blue, rush to top, dash in before your laner's ready, hit the enemy one or two times, dash out, head for the Wight, hope the laner is able to do something. 2. Clear wolves and Blue to clean out all 80 stacks, go to top lane and you have maybe 15 seconds to wait for an opportune moment for the gank, rush to wight.

Sound like a familiar pattern, to you?

ShadowNinetailsMay 11, 20141 votes

(2/2)

All this generates a situation where the jungler can by choice cripple their team, with the delusion that he is working towards a meaningful endgame benefit. It creates a conflict of interests that breeds pointless arguments, and escalating hostility.

Now this I will wholeheartedly agree on. League of Legends is a game full of choices that each come from different mindsets and reasonings, but all have one common goal. These choices that the PLAYER makes can "cripple their team, with the delusion that he is working towards a meaningful endgame benefit" like when you see a team like Fiora Amumu Karthus Vayne Sona go against Renekton LeeSin Leblanc Lucian Leona and say "It's 70-3 at 18:00, all of our towers and inhibs are gone, double supers are pouring into the base and they have Baron but it's ok. We're a late game team". Clearly this comp was designed to win the endgame fights, but they're all notoriously vulnerable for the first 10-15 minutes and going against a team designed to win in 15 minutes.

The reason choices like that (even the arguments that stem from them) are important for a game like League is because in the right situation and played the right way, it can work. Wanna run a stealth team like Rengar Evelynn Khazix Twitch Shaco ? It can work. Pet champions? Mordekaiser Shaco Heimerdinger Malzahar (<--AD build) Annie with a item 3060 can be an epic team. Having Caitlyn Sivir Ashe Jinx Varus rush mid lane with summoner 7 + summoner 12 has net me and friends 8 minute wins before LCS ruined it. These types of strategies take advantage of the fact that there is no set "one right way" to win games and that's what makes League great.

MackleDogeMay 10, 20142 votes

One stupid person with a terrible attitude is not a reason to remove an entirely viable item with a legitimate strategy attached to it from the game. Hate to break it to you, but there are farm heavy junglers regardless of feral flare. There is a decent population of junglers that don't/shouldn't gank until level 6 to begin with and there are plenty of games where there are limits to what the jungler should do in lane as far as ganks or pressure are concerned when the lanes are winning. I won't say that feral flare is balanced as an item because I feel that need some work on it still, but you don't get to take an item out of the game just because you dislike the game style associated with it. Some teams favor a farm heavy jungle, some laners like to freeze lane and not get ganks, there are a wide variety of things to account for in this game.

Nameless VoiceMay 10, 20142 votes

When I play mid, I find that I rarely get the blue buff any more - the Feral Flare jungler always takes it for the extra stacks. Not just the second or even third, he takes them all.

I also see more and more junglers who do nothing but farm the jungle, happily letting allies die and towers fall nearby while they ignore them and focus on their camps.

The teamplay of League of Legends players is never particularly high, but this item does seem to bring out the worst in people.

MackleDogeMay 10, 20142 votes

Ignoring the fact that buffs belong to the jungler and they are under no obligation to give it to you, if that's what people are doing with feral flare it's because they are bad players, not because it's a bad item. It doesn't require feral flare for a jungler to keep buffs, farm as opposed to cover a wave, etc. There is nothing wrong with having farm heavy junglers be viable in this game, it simply requires the laners to play appropriately. I know that everyone loves to flame and place all the blame on the jungler, but it really doesn't work that way.

Nameless VoiceMay 10, 20141 votes

I agree with you.

The people who do that are bad players, or sometimes even trolls (e.g. they are playing badly on purpose) - I'm just observing that it seems to happen more often since Feral Flare was introduced.

My problem with them taking the blue buffs isn't so much a case of "they're MINE!", but rather that it's a part of the pattern of constantly farming all the camps, all the buffs, and ignoring their teammates, towers and objectives.

The problem is the people who see Feral Flare as the only worthwhile goal in their game, as opposed to just seeing it as a nice mid-late game upgrade to keep their Wriggle's path viable (which was what it was originally intended to be.)

On a side note - since Feral Flare has no mana regeneration or recovery (unlike the Spirit items), I can see why the junglers love to take the blue buff instead of giving it to the mid laner.

MackleDogeMay 10, 20142 votes

My opinion on this is that we have to trust in the general system that ends up instituting meta and FotM cycles. Eventually those people are going to lose enough games from their poor decisions and lack of macro vision that either they will stop using feral flare leaving it effective for those that know how to balance and appropriately use it, or they will begin to adjust their play style with feral flare to how it should be done.

WorgslargMay 10, 20141 votes

Was playing a ranked game as nasus top, I picked her into a shyvanna, thinking that i could handle her. Shyvanna went jungle, and they picked teemo top. Our jungler, a udyr, went spirit stone.

And also feral flare. When he proceded to farm jungle for 2/3's of the game, we lost.

I love feral flare as an item, and as an alternate choice. But it encourages too much of the playstyle of stacking it. IMO, once you actually get the flare, it should be only kills/assists grant a stack.

ShadowNinetailsMay 11, 20142 votes

Ok the fact that he went item 1080 AND item 3160 proves he just sucks as a jungler and your opinion shouldn't in any way be based on that.