Lee Sin suggestions (as a lee sin main with 2k+ games)

truthuntold·Jul 15, 2014·4 votes·794 views

Hi, so after trying a few (probably way too many times) to have an actually constructive thread about Lee on GD, I have realised it was hopeless.

So, this is my first post on here.

I'd like to talk about one of my favorite champions in the game, lee sin.

I've been playing lee sin since late season 2, and haven't stopped playing him ever since. I have went up to diamond 3 on my main with him, and while I don't think that's really amazing, I believe that the rank I have achieved mixed with the total games I have with him has given me great understanding of how lee works.

Now, while I do hate being spam downvoted on GD because I don't want lee to be gutted, I do think he is problematic, mostly in competitive.

The fact that he is and has been a strong pick in competitive is a clear indicator that he is too strong.

Now I'll be addressing what I think would keep him a viable pick while reducing how frustrating he is. (keep in mind that as an assassin lee main I sort of want him to be reworked into an actual assassin instead of a bruiser that transitions into a tank)

-His spells could have lower ratios. Currently his spells have ridiculous ratios. However, he can't really use them properly (as a full damage dealer) since his kit does not have built in defenses. I don't have actual number suggestions for this but you get the point. Imo, his ult and Q ratio are the biggest offenders

-His W could be changed so that it no longer shields champions and instead gives armor on 2nd cast again OR (while still not shielding allies) scale off bonus AD. This gives lee the possibility to be building damage.

-His E could have a weaker attack speed debuff. People don't seem to realise it, but this is what makes him such a great early jungle duelist, especially at level 3 where your spells have longer cooldowns and pretty much all junglers will be dealing damage through auto attacks (red buff).

-His R could have a longer cooldown. It's a strong ultimate and has a really short cooldown, I feel like this spell is what makes it easy to escape on lee sin while still being safe, since his kick is up most of the time, it's easy for a bad lee sin to screw up and then press R and walk away. While I don't think bad lee sins need to be punished (because let's be honest, he's one of the stongest if not the strongest jungler in the game and has a win rate that hovers around 46%), I think around 15-20 seconds would be okay at early levels, while keeping a lower cooldown (currently 60, could be at 70 level 3).

Now if changes similar to these ones would be considered, I believe another thing needs to be changed: his sustain in the jungle with a jungle item, level 5 w and hydra. I can go from 10% health to full in just one camp, I'm not exactly sure how it could be changed, but possibly some cap against jungle monsters?

That's all I have in mind for now, thanks for reading. If you have any questions/suggestions feel free to post!

5 Comments

Earl EulrichJul 16, 20142 votes

I tend to disagree with the defense...if you build him ad-heavy he´s an assassin in essence, relaying on his high mobility to flankan opponent and get his dmg to the target he wants to execute(or just kick out of position), and to avoid dmg. It´s somewhat high risk-high reward gameplay - at least in some circumstances. I totally agree on the e as-slow being too oppressive...-60% on a huge AoE currently allows a very offensive built Lee to just jump into 5man from the front and come out alive, as they can´t really fire back while they suffer the cripple...though I think the biggest offender is the ability to ward-step: Lee is a strong pick in 3v3 and Dominion, but he has less mobility here and really relies on proper positioning/flanking to get a good engage - and on his allies if he wants to get away from harm after getting in. Just taking away the free step opens him to a lot more risk and making him a lot more team-reliant, lifting his skill-floor by quite a lot (as it should be).

truthuntoldJul 16, 20141 votes

The thing is, even though he has massive ratios, his lack of built-in defenses don't allow him to be an assassin. Look at riven, she is very mobile, yet she still needs a proper shield to be able to do her job. Zed? Not quite tanky but he can be untargetable and has all the shadows to escape.

As for his skillfloor I disagree, he is VERY strong at the moment yet his win rate suggests that people struggle with him.

Sát Nhân Ðào HoaJul 22, 20141 votes

But remember, Zed's ult can be negated with a variety of options while Lee's ult on the other hand, is unblockable. As for Zed, being untargetable while staying on top of the enemy doesn't really help much and rushing Zhonya + a slight CC would totally cripple his damage output. And in Lee Sin's case, his escapes are infinite while Zed's escape has a longer cool down and technically he can use his ult as an escape route (only if enemies are too dumb to know how it works) yet with Lee Sin, you can ward hop, double-Q into a jungle camp/creep, or simply kick enemies away from you, And about the tankiness, if you are playing a tanky Zed, you are doing something wrong. With Lee Sin, you would always have at least 1-2 or even 3 defense items regardless wherever you go, top, mid, or jungle so making Lee Sin into an assassin type champion would make him even more OP as he could just jump in, assassinate his target and if something gone wrong he can disengage quite easy as no assassin ever has AOE AS+MS debuff at the same time and 10s + on his ult wouldn't hurt him much either, since he only needs to wait 10s more before the next attempt.

LabcownJul 16, 20141 votes

Bad Lee Sin's in general won't have quite a great grasp at Ward Jumping anyways, so if you take that away, all you'd be doing is lowering his Skill Ceiling. Lee Sin is only dangerous/abusive in the high end of the Ranked spectrum, where all of his kit is understood and used efficiently by those who play him.

I 100% agree that the 60% AS-Slow on his E is ridiculously unnecessary, especially in an environment where AS-Slows are exceedingly rare to begin with. The fact that it's an AoE AS-Slow at that makes it even worse.

I think nerfing Lee's kit will come down to the decision of what role should he lean more towards. Because right now he shift roles extremely fast throughout the game, starting off early as a great assassin who can bully people throughout the jungle and in-lane, but then transitions into more of a Bruiser/Tank role later on with all the utility he provides.

If the want to tune down his "assassin-ness", I think they should hit his mobility and ratios just a bit, possibly make W cost more if you decide to Ward Jump and increase the CD on R just a bit to make it a more decisive cast rather than a "better use it because it's up" sort of deal.

MrBuffingtonJul 15, 20141 votes

I think you have some really good insight. I don't play much Lee Sin, don't have many legitimate ideas to contribute (though I'm great with drastic changes if you're into that sort of thing XD).

I do agree with the increase in ult cooldown. It already has no cost, there should be something that prevents him from using it every fight. Sort of how Kayle could (pre-nerf, not sure how it is now) just ult herself and walk away every time she gets engaged on, Lee Sin (as you mentioned) can just kick people away when he's in an unfavorable position.