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Discussion of Tanky/Defense Itemization (@FeralPony?)

ProfDrDeath·5/3/2014, 3:01:37 PM·8 votes·816 views

Hello fellow summoner guys and summoner ladies, hello Rioters,

it is a common notice that, over the last season, League's itemization has become rather stale again, especially in the departments of Marksmen and Tanky itemization. Support's and Mage's itemization in general is pretty decent, although there are some outliers (by that, I'm mostly refering to item 3174 and item 3157 ).

For clarification, what these four categories mean for me:

  • Marksman: AD itemization. Examples: item 3072 item 3153
  • Mage: AP stuff, like item 3089 item 3003
  • Tanky: Defensive items of all kinds: item 3110 item 3143
  • Support: Items that help your team/hinder the enemy, items with a main focus on utility. item 3023 item 3092 item 3401

This is mainly about Tanky itemization and some perceived issues with it.

Or, instead of issues, one could say some things I noticed with it.

Tanky items can be classed in three major groups, depending on the amount of resistances and HP they give. Non-tanky stats are left out, for the purpose of this classification:

  1. Resistance-focused: Items that give high resistances (70+ for Armor, 40+ for MR), but only low, if any, HP (less than 300). This category contains things like item 3110 item 3025 item 3075 item 3026 item 3140 item 3156
  2. Hybrid: These items give both average or better resistances, as well as average or better HP. This includes item 3068 item 3143 item 3102 item 3190 item 3065
  3. Health-focused: These class of items primarily gives HP, and a ton of it (500+), too. This category is the smallest, with only 4 items item 3083 item 3401 item 3022 item 3027 .

Now, what is the issue?

Simply, there's not enough differentiation between the Hybrid defense items and the more focused classes. Certain items from that category give too much of both resistances and HP. Yes, I am refering to item 3143 , item 3102 and item 3065.
Randuin's is, and there's going to be little debate, the best Armor item in the whole game. It gives high resilence to physical damage (high EHP) by its stats alone. On top, the passive reduces sustained physical damage by 10%, as the enemy is going to attack 10% slower. And lastly, 500 health is also rather effective against magic damage, which mostly comes in the form of burst (and a higher HP pool is a natural counter to burst). Banshee's and Visage, on the other side, have the same effect: They give the highest MR possible from a single slot, on top of really good HP. This gives you good EHP against magic damage, and works ok against stray physical damage, too. On top, both items have amazing secondary effects: Banshee's gives you a Spell Shield, further amplifying its effect against burst (and it works against both magic and physical damage), while Visage gives your regeneration a good boost, as well as a nice bit of CdR.

But, it doesn't stop there. Nobody prevents you from buying two of these items together. For example, Randuin's and Spirit Visage together give you almost as much HP as Warmog's Armor...and almost as much regeneration, too (24 from Visage + 20% extra for all other sources of HP, summed up easily 30 Hp5, which is equivalent for a 3k HP Warmog's user). All that, and both more slot- and gold-efficient than Warmog's + 2 resistance items. While being more convenient to build, due to smooth 2-components+recipe cost build paths.

item 3068 is a different story: It is the best hybrid offensive/defensive item, as the magic damage aura beats all other off/def items in pure DPS if two or more targets are concerned.
Also, item 3190 is more in line, as it gives not as much MR.

Together, these factors contribute a lot to raw HP items falling out of favor. That's not to say that these items do not have further problems (awkward build paths for both Mallet and Mog's, Mog's getting outclassed both in HP and passive), but they contribute a lot.

A final throwback to S2: Why were Warmog's, Mallet and also the resistance-focused items build more during that time?
Because the HP/resist hybrid items gave less HP back then (item 3143 350, item 3102 375 (and 375 mana), item 3065 200), as well as Warmog's giving more HP and HP regeneration (1270 and 40, with a stacking mechanic and higher cost to prevent the abuse potential in lane). You basically needed one of the raw HP items for your tankiness.

What kind of changes could I picture?

  • Making item 3143 more of an Armor-focused item by lowering its HP and raising its Armor. Possibly, add a bit of HP regen back onto it.
  • item 3065 and item 3102 s: Either lower MR or lower HP (latter would probably require build path changes...again).
  • Raise the MR values on certain, completed resistance-focused MR items (item 3156 item 3139 item 3001 (carefully)), remake item 3091 and make a new, tank-focused raw MR item (possibly with Force of Nature's icon and name, but not exact stats). This item could, for example, use the active of Dominion's item 3180 (but not the passive!).
  • Improve the health-focused items a bit, for example by raising item 3083's HP value, cost and giving it additional regeneration based on missing Health (sort-of like Perseverance - which shouldn't be a mastery at all). Also, better build paths would be nice.
  • Make item 3056 the item it should be, instead of something that feels completely out of place.

11 Comments

ProfDrDeath5/3/2014, 3:08:01 PM4 votes

An idea for a possible FoN:

Force of Nature

Builds from item 1057, item 1033 and item 3114.

Gives 60-65 MR, 10 Mp5, 10% CdR (and 1 MS for nostalgic purposes).

Unique passive: X% of magic damage you receive counts as charge for Nature's Wrath. Max Y charges

Unique active - Nature's Wrath: Deals 3 pulses of magic damage (total damage: X base + charges) in an AoE around you. 1 pulse/second.

MakersF5/3/2014, 7:33:19 PM1 votes

Baaaaad idea.

You know you have only 6 slots? And 5 with boots? Now, the tank needs to have HP, armor and MR, + something to allow it not to be totally ignored. Right now Randuin + Veil + Sunfire + Boots allow for 2 items, one will probably be kind fo offensive/utility, the other will probably be an item against the most fed opponent (an MR if hey are AP, armor otherwise).

Moreover you can build arm, mr and hp at the same time (you finish sunfire, then build a cloak for veil, then continue with what you need). You are saying that a tank should choose early/mid game (2-3 items) between ONLY ARMOR, ONLY MR OR (but you are saying to prevent the use of warmogs in lane, so that is not a viable idea in your opinion) HP. That means that the tank, who is supposed to survive, wont survive until he has 3 objects + boots. When the tank has 2 objects, the carries (AP and AD) have at least 2 objects each. At least. So, are you going mr + hp, and be wrecked by the adc, are you going arm + hp and be wrecked by the apc, or are you going mr + arm, and be wrecked a bit by one, a bit from the other (resist without hp are useless) and totally destroyed by whoever deals true damage?

Do you even play tank?

And little note: in the resistance only you are totally ignoring they give an AOE slow, a counter to life steal, a ton of AD + a shield, a revive and a "free me from cc". I can agree that the health ones are a bit under toned, but roa gives mana + ap, mallet gives 40% slow, warmog gives regen (not that much though)

Sire Hippington5/4/2014, 1:41:34 PM1 votes

While I agree in general, there is a bit more to it.

1 reason why pure resistance items are out of favor since S3 is the new penetration sytem. It's just way to easy to counter high defense stats with penetration, makeing raw resitances simply pointless without a high hp-pool.

for raw hp, Mallet and Warmongs simply could use a buff, mallet is to expensive and with an ankward builtpath while Warmongs just doesn't offer enough for the Slot(the gold efficiency is good though)

I also find the mr-iemeisation a bit strange - we got 3 items with mr+hp, 2 giving 400 and 1 450 hp, 2 giving 55 and one 40 Mr, the only realy difference is the unique passive/aktive... There is no choice between raw MR or some MR+HP, there is only HP+MR

Wit's End is a great item for most tanks, it could just use higher goldcosts and acordingly better stats, like building from a negatron instead of nullmage.

Odins Vail could go into SR more or less as it is, we could use a new upgrade for catalyst(currently only builts into roa), and Odin's is just an awsome item.

But the most important part for me is mana-sustain.
THERE IS NOT A SINGLE MANA SUSTAIN ITEM FOR TANKS IN THIS GAME(MAXMANA IS NOT SUSTAIN)
As a Tank(not off-tank) u rely 100% on ur abillitys, u want to get max cdr, and u usually have huge manacosts, and ur tanky, so u usually stay a long time in the fight, so u use alot abillitys, so u need a shitload of mana, wich u don't have as u currently lack propper itemisation. There is a reason why we don't see mana based tanks these days

And i also miss a ms-option for Tanks, I still don't understand why FoN was removed, it was so awsome

I don't think item 3102 item 3065 item 3143 need nerfs, other items just need buffs

ProfDrDeath5/4/2014, 6:21:13 PM1 votes

Sidenote: Idea for Lifesteal:

Lifesteal & Spellvamp are reduced to 33% against lane minions. However, there's a minimum amount you heal for each attack/spell, equal to LS times (1/X) bonus AD / SV times (1/Y) bonus AP.

Retains efficiency in champ-to-champ combat, but nerfs sustain, especially for toplaners who do not build as much bonus AD/AP?

Writing this down as a spur-of-the-moment thought...

Thorne Lionsbane5/5/2014, 10:31:43 PM1 votes

your health number on spirit visage is off, its actually 400, plus it gives ten percent cdr.

Rubitonabuilding5/9/2014, 2:50:33 PM1 votes

I liked FoN. IDK why they took it out :C