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@Statikk: Don't perpetuate Kassadin's issues when buffing him.

Slovakattack··14 votes·3,920 views

As much as I do appreciate buffs to Kassadin (good lord he needs them), buffing the damage on his W is just gonna add to his bursty spell rotation, not his sustained damage. He still won't have anything to do after the rotation is done, and won't be rewarded for getting in close in a healthy way.

The problems that plagued him before the rework will persist, and he will be forced into a UP state because balance wise because of the burst you are going to give his kit again.

Why not add damage to the passive on W, and make it scale? Seriously, it's kinda ridiculous that the passive has a BASE BONUS OF 20 THAT DOESN'T SCALE AND A .1 AP RATIO. It's inconsequential, and seems like a not very well thought out afterthought to his kit. He is just not incentivized to use it effectively, due to it's low impact.

Why not give him a reason to invest in items like Nashors and LB?

You have a chance to genuinely make a cool, AP based MADC/bruiser that counters mages... why are you turning him into a spell-rotation reliant burster like he was before?

43 Comments

RiotStatikk7 votes

Hey Slovakattack,

You certainly bring up legitimate concerns with the buffs.

I don't think that I agree with the fact that giving him substantial burst will make him an unhealthy champion, as long as he has to close into melee to achieve its full potential (even for just a second or 2). Removing the Silence has given us a lot of room to move now that his opponents are not completely locked out of reacting to him.

At the end of the day, Kassadin's burst is still not top-of-the-line in comparison to other assassins / mages, his base damages are among the lowest in class and his AP ratios are sizeable but not insane. A mobile, high burst, but squishy Kassadin with a hit and run combat style is something I believe is core to many Kassadin players. The buff to the W is simply to make it compare more favorably relative to Q / E and give him more reward when he arrives at his target.

We ran into some difficulties when creating a sustained damage Kassadin combat style, primarily due to the Mana itemization that exists in the game. Mana items are inherently very tanky, specifically they have a ton of easy access to Armor. Combine this with the focus we want to put on anti-magic in Kassadin's kit, this becomes a bit problematic because he often quickly becomes extremely resilient to both magic (built into his kit) and physical (Mana itemization) damage. Whenever we give a champion both Tankiness and Mobility, they need to have some pretty severe tradeoffs elsewhere on the kit or they become overbearing to play against. For Kassadin, he has to make real tradeoffs between Tankiness and Damage which is something we need to preserve.

Ultimately, I'd love for both Burst damage Kassadin and Sustained damage Kassadin to have places in the game, but to do so we would need to ensure each has its own strengths and drawbacks. With the current Mana itemization in place, I don't think it's plausible to make a sustained Melee DPS version healthy for the game. Currently, Kassadin can opt-in to a riskier AP focused build where he has significant damage and mobility but is ultimately very squishy, or a Mana-Tank build which is tankier and more controlling at the cost of damage output.

Hope this helps explain things a bit.

exec35 votes

Can you comment at all on the on-hit damage? It's so weak right now that it begs the question of why it's even on the kit?

NA Darklarik4 votes

think you could look in the direction of Cooldown Reductions. Like Landing a Riftwalk will lower the CD of his other spells by X, or Hitting his W will lower the Cooldown on Q and E and so forth.

Not buffing his numbers, just how often he can output damage if he decides to really go in on a fight

Earl Eulrich6 votes

A mobile, high burst, but squishy Kassadin with a hit and run combat style is something I believe is core to many Kassadin players.

As a kassadinplayer i have to disagree here. He never had that 100-0playstyle without being fed, it had all been about using his superior mobility to get of multiple-combos without getting yourself killed in the process - and using his map-mobility to set up his team.

If i want to just step->burst there are already enough way stronger options in the game (LB now has more cc, way more dmg and a step on 6sec cd with instant retreat - there will be now reason ever to play kassadin if you keep his kit like that, as he fails in comparision to LB with everything he does).

And I still don´t see why a sustained dps version would be unhealthy (->he needs time to bring the dmg, so there´s time to react to it accordingly), while a version that steps out of nowwhere and kills a carry within 1sec from 100%lategame should be healthy. It doesn´t matter if he doesn´t have a silence - there´s no counterplay if you are dead once you see him. That said...he needs an incredible amount of AP to reach that state atm as it´s all in his scalings, leaving him unable to either apply sustained dmg or burst dmg the first 40min+ of the game - rendering it to a 4v5 for his team right now before he yet again does become toxic and can carry.

And last but not least...either change his jokes or bring the silence back, but this is just sad as it is.

Sire Hippington5 votes

I realy don't like the new direction of kassadin.

I loved the idea of becoming more melee focused to involve more risk for him, but for me it meant he gets more dps based frocing him to stay close if he realy wants to deal dmg, so he either builts tanky or becomes pretty risky.

But now, his dps got lowered, he does actually get rewarded less for gettin close while haveing more risk doing so, his base dmg is so gutted that building tanky means ur a no factor unless ur team wins anyway and u can clean enemies from ~15%hp, and he lost his silence!

Besides his Riftwalk, his silence was the most iconic thing in his kit. If u asked anyone who got a silence, Kassa would have been the first champ that comes to mind for most players. Even his joke line is based on his silence, Kassadin simply was silence.

I play kassadin since i play this game, and i never have seen him as the pure antimage he has become, he always was a bursty highly mobile guy with a silence, bursting squishys and anyoing the rest regardless of beeing ad or ap.

I also never were a fan of the insane mancosts and resulting forced itemisation towards mana and the dependncy on bluebuff, but i did understand the need of gating his ult in some way.

I think kassadin needs his silence back, maybe with some conditions bound to it, maybe with Q turning into a skillshot to allow counterplay, but kassa without silence is not kassa.
I think his Kit should be more dps focused, so lower ap ratios on his q+e burst, more dmg on his W on-hit and maybe a return of the as-buff from his passive. I wouldn't mind loosing the new shield if it takes to much powerbudget The stacks of his ult need to fall-off much faster, or atleast scale with cdr, but a kassa that is more or less limited to 4steps total simply sucks, even if that means the base cd on his R needs to get increased.

If u wonder why i think he gets less rewarded than befor for getting close while haveing more risk:
His W acutally now gives less dmg than the old one, in 2 hits, the new one does 180+0.7 dmg(1 of those hits beeing the active), 3 hits deal 200+0.8. The old one did 180+0.6 in 2 hits and 270+0.9 in 3, and u got bonus as from ur passive, so if u stayed close to a target for more than 1 hit, u did alot more dmg than now. Also, thx to the silence, u could afort to stay close for 2-3 hits easily, the new shield is barly noticeable making u alot more vulnerable if u actually get close. The higher managain is just there to compensate the increased manacost of his ult, so not realy a net buff for his W.

I don't think kassa with his current kit should be allowed to have a huge burst at any point of the game, as it kit still alows for to less counterplay un less u realy put all the burst into his W+R The R->Q+E currently means he can apear out of nowhere and hit u with his 2 best scaling skills befor u know what happens, as the range of the combo is higher than visionrange, both dmg spells are point n' click(E kindof as it'S instand), and both skills have no casttime and fast animations. If Kassa is alowed to reach a point where his Q+E takes 50%+ of an enemy carry, he will be broken as soon as he gets there, as any champ that would die from his Q+E has to recall as the threat of kassasdin apearing out of nowhere and finishing them without anything u can do abiut it. Even if u have vision on him, u can't get in a ~1350 range aoe around him without dieing-> u can't participate in the fight. The possibillity of dealing dmg from so far away without a chance to miss it means for me that the burst has to stay low or he will be unhealthy for the game, it's like a nida homing spears.

I don't think the current buffs on his Q shield on pbe are good, as it would only push him further into the niche of a pure antimage, makeing him and hardcounter vs ap-heavy comps, while making any ad into a hardcounter vs him, wich conflicts with the 'no hardcounters' philosophie that was mentioned in serveral rio posts, as winning a game cause u picked champ X vs champ Y rathern than outplaying or opponent is a bad thing.

turkeyBACON1 votes

While I like the idea of turning his Q into a skillshot to retain the silence but it would also be an indirect buff to his E since you would be able to proc it more often in the early game pre lvl 6.

Malah3 votes

Whenever we give a champion both Tankiness and Mobility, they need to have some pretty severe tradeoffs elsewhere on the kit or they become overbearing to play against.

Ryze.

Azlagor1 votes

Ryze and mobility in the same sentence, thats new.

MackleDoge1 votes

Movement speed buff? I'm guessing? He doesn't necessarily have a gap closer or mobility based escape but I think we can both agree that Ryze can be quite fast post the activation of his ultimate, and if he's ahead and doing that it can be very frustrating to deal with due to it's low cooldown.

TENTACLELUVR2 votes

Why just perpetuate gameplay that's already been explored (slippery burst mage: see Fizz, Akali, LeBlanc, old Gragas) when you have a great opportunity to create a thematically unique character based on sustained damage with bonuses against magic damage? Don't you agree that fits Kassadin's character and past self more than his current form?

Slovakattack2 votes

Hey Statikk, thank you so much for responding to my concerns! I apologize for the late response, but I've been on holiday and have not had the time to check the forums the last few days. I hadn't considered the itemization issue when constructing my concerns, and your reasoning makes some pretty good sense. I'm not sure I totally agree 100% with everything you've said, but tbh It's just really good to know that you still have an eye on him!

I still fear that he may contract "Diana syndrome" or be relegated to being a weaker version of other, similar characters (leblanc, etc.)

One of the reasons I am pushing for a more MADC role for the ol' guy is that as a burst assassin, he is outclassed, while bringing less to the table than others in his class (no hard cc, sure the mobility is great, but champs like Leblanc and Fizz also have that in spades, and greater utility besides.)

I kinda feel that without the utility of other Assassins, he would need to have an unhealthy amount of burst potential to give people a reason to pick him, really. If you're planning on giving him that burst potential now that he no longer locks down enemy champs, then by all means do so, but from the sound of things, you are fine with his burst not really being in the top of his class... and with what little else he brings to the table (heck, even -leblanc- has substantial cc with her silences, slows and snares) that worries me greatly.

Those are my thoughts, and thank you so much again for responding, with what how busy you are =)

PressDforDonald1 votes

He really needs his old kit back.. end of story

Earl Eulrich4 votes

i did already write that on the first PBE iterations - but yea, that really is what kassadin would need. popping out of nowhere and dealing a huge amount of burst is just really unhealthy and doesn´t allow for much counterplay...while allowing him for less burst but more sustained dps would fix all the problems with his patterns as he now could just come out of nowhere, but would still have to stay in combat for a while to be impactful instead of just bursting and stepping away into the void again.

So what i´d really love to see is giving him some kind of vayne mechanic - where he marks the target on every 3rd hit and can now q it for bonus dmg and a silence (and he really needs this silence, it´s part of his identity, having him joking around in the current state is just sooo sad).

Slovakattack2 votes

I actually like this idea. This is a cool idea- although Kassadin would be sacrificing his only defensive option (his Q shield) to hold out for the silence. While that's not immediately a bad thing, some research may be merited towards whether that is a healthy decision to force players to make, or a painful one.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

i think it´s a good tradeof if kassadin has to choose between just spamming q for shield/dps or using it timed to his aas for silence and a dmg spike.

Just adding the silence back in a way that wouldn´t require extra attention from kassadin would only lead back to the "lack of counterplay"-issues (as does his still bursty playstyle right now if he ever gets more than 600ap).

Slovakattack2 votes

True. I think an early iteration of the rework had Kassadin's Q mark a target, which would then proc and silence on an auto-attack, kinda like Leblanc's Q.

It was pretty interesting, although I can kinda see why they didn't do it in the end.

The main issue with the tradeoff is there will be a lot of situations involving mages that will require him to have a shield just to get in close at all, eliminating the possibility of holding out for a silence unless they are already cced.

One option to fix this would be to make him beefy in his base stats, enough that the shield is not 100% required to close, but then that would make it overbearing when used properly, etc.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I think reducing or even removing the shield for a situational silence and better base stats wouldn't be that bad. I also think it would help to reduce the Q cd on higher ranks and nerf it's ap-ratio(the silence should be rather short then, like 1-1.5sec) This would mean with cdr it should be able to use the shield in the beginning and still make use of the silence mark mechanic

I also think his base as could also use some buff(with acordingly nerfing as/lvl) so he scales better with as from items and runes

Earl Eulrich3 votes

yea, i think his passive already sort of establishes the anti-mage topic, the pure anti-ap shield somewhat is too much i feel - as it really only leaves a niche for him as mage-(hard)counter if it´s strong and useless champ if it´s not. They really should find other uses for the q.

HazeyInDaHead3 votes

It would be awesome if his passive w was buffed a little more to entice tankier items on kass to stay and fight until r is back

Slovakattack1 votes

It wouldn't necessarily need to entice tankier items, but he does need to have a reason to stay and fight- since he has no real spammable hard cc (slow does not count), the only way he could be incentivized to stay in melee would be through strong, consistent damage output.

He currently does not have that. His spell rotation is on a moderately short cd, but he literally has nothing to do in between those cds... which would be like if Yasuo couldn't AA between Qs.

exec33 votes

Agreed about passive W, I was genuinely confused at how low the numbers were on PBE and why they weren't increased by release. If something's so low that removing it wouldn't affect the champ at all then you need to have a good look at it because something's wrong.

Slovakattack3 votes

Agreed. It frankly feels like kind of a middle finger to Kassadin fans. (even though I know Riot would do no such thing!)

exec32 votes

More like just a simple brain fart rather than a middle finger. I'm just confused on if they actually want the on-hit damage or not. It either needs buffs or needs to be removed. It's worthless as it is right now and doesn't do anything. If they want him to AA for sustained damage then buff it, if they want him to burst then remove it as it doesn't do anything for his burst even if the numbers weren't so abysmal.

Slovakattack2 votes

Agreed. There are other aspects of his kit that would actually benefit from the power budget being used up by the passive at the moment.

TENTACLELUVR2 votes

You have a chance to genuinely make a cool, AP based MADC/bruiser that counters mages... why are you turning him into a spell-rotation reliant burster like he was before?

No idea. I thought that's what this "rework" was about. That is what Kassadin was always meant to be, but then people discovered high AP ratios on Q/E. Rather than nerfing that and preserving his original kit, Riot decided to accommodate the annoying AP burst-based playstyle. This isn't really a rework, just straight removal of his base MR, unique passive, and silence. Sion had/has a similar issue, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Sion rework was an AP burster as well, rather than his original badass undead fighter self.

Keira Helsh2 votes

This, one hundred percent. I begin to feel like Riot loses focus on what they intended for many old champions over the years of playing. Kassadin is /not/ an AP caster, he is, has, and will always be a 'Melee Disabler' trying to get rid of that, is getting rid of Kassadin.

Dantilq1 votes

I think part of the reason why they don't want his W passive to be strong, is because then he will deal too much sustained damage. His pushing power will go up, his objective control, his lasthitting, his jungle power and if it works on towers his splitpush.

He would gain immense amounts of power from it, and they don't want to spend that big part of his power-budget on his W passive, which is the least exciting of his abilities. The power simply would pass by fairly under-appreciated.

If they wanted him to stick to targets for sustained damage, they should instead lower cooldown of his W. Make it rewarding to stick to people. Best would be 2 sec for maximum synergy with LB for sustained damage.Then just remove the passive part altogether.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

If splitpushing and tower-/objective-taking is the problem, one could always make it so the damage is increased against champions only.

Cosmic Warper2 votes

It doesn't apply to turrets anyway.

Dantilq1 votes

Sure that would be a possiblity, but then his last hitting would be suffering. Should his already slightly weak laning, be nerfed a bit more, since he can't use his W on minions?

Slovakattack2 votes

I just want to point out that Kassadin is not a real flashy champ, ability wise. None of his abilities are really 'exciting' in of themselves except for his ult. (mobility ftw)

I mean, your suggestion as a more 'exciting' alternative is to put the power onto an AA reset and buffed AA. Whee...

Dantilq1 votes

Yes totally, what is fun about kassadin is his mobility and rest of his kit is fairly bland. Activated abilities are overall much more fun than passive ones, unless the passive really changes your playstyle, more AA damage doesn't.

IF you add power to his W, it should be on active part thus, and if sustained damage is too low, it should be active not passve which should gain that power. Worst type of abilities in the game is raw stat-abilities.

Slovakattack1 votes

The thing is, raw stat abilities are absolutely required for champions to function in high-damaging roles (Marksman, ADC, Assassin.)

One of the issues here is that I believe that Kassadin works better as a squishy, AP-MADC. Riot, for some reason, wishes to have him in a bruiser role- something that I for the life of me cannot understand, as Kassadin is just turning into Diana. That is, he cant do damage, because he's too beefy- nor is he allowed to soak too much damage, because of his damage potential.

My point was that Kassadin's kit is not reliant on interesting abilities to be fun. Therefore, it wouldn't make his kit any less fun if some power was indeed given to his W passive.

Dantilq1 votes

Goal is to make Kassadin deal better sustained damage, I agree with you there.

Why is it better to add power to passive part instead of making his active part better for sustained damage?

Slovakattack3 votes

Adding it to the active could create a host of balancing issues. Simply adding damage to the active of W would not give him sustained damage, but burst damage- something that imo we should be avoiding.

Lowering the cooldown of W would increase his dps slightly, but it would also heavily spike his mana regen, which would mitigate the cost of his ultimate far too much for Riot's liking, i'm sure.

As it stands, Kassadin simply has nothing to do in between spell rotations. While your idea of simply lowering the CD of the spell to give him more dps would shorten his spell rotation, he still has no incentive to really stay in melee: The degree to which you would have to decrease the CD of the W active in order to incentivize him to stay in melee would make his in lane farming and ability use brainless, and lessen the impact of his Ultimate's crippling mana costs too much.

The passive is a better place for that power imo, because it is a flat dps increase, with no other factors (mana active, etc.) tied to it, and is therefore easier to balance. It also helps him synergize with AS items like Nashors, which helps him stay away from Assassin/Burst modes that Riot feels are not a good place for him.

Dantilq1 votes

Okay you bring up a few fair points. If you touched the CD you would need to hit the mana regen, and his last hitting would just be too good if he could use W for every last hit, and he could spam Q heavily etc.

Could be fixed partially with cooldown that is lowered with levels, so early levels he have fairly big CD, and then it goes down to super-low CD. His mana regen would feel bad on a super-short CD W though, because it would need to be much weaker.

More damage to active wasn't in question if goal is to increase his sustained damage.

Question though, why should he be turned in to a melee DPS? Will that role even work? How should he survive being focused even the slightest?

Generally squishy melee champs tend to be Assassins, and his high amount of mobility and lack of defensive skills suggest he should be one too.

His assassination wasn't what was deemed toxic, but his lack of counterplay. It was a mix of too fast burst, and silence. Silence severely cripples your ways of doing any meaningful counterattacks.

Difference between melee DPS and assasin is A. damage type, burst vs sustained, B. how much punishment they can take, and if they have ways to mitigate the damage.

Yi, Trynda, Fiora, Yasuo all have immensely strong defensive moves at their disposal, and that is why they can work as melee DPS, they also at times are forced into splitpush or assassin roles.

Slovakattack1 votes

He does have a defensive skill: His magic damage shield. Granted, it's pretty trashy atm but it -is- getting a decent buff in the PBE as we speak. Theoretically, Kassadin would be able to shield magic damage, and juke out cc with his intense mobility, allowing him to stay in close.

Now, if you asked: "Well, what's the point of picking an antimage MADC when you can just pick another ADC like Yasuo or Yi that does their job equally effectively against all damage types... well, I wouldn't have an answer.

Sadness :[

Keira Helsh3 votes

As a Kassadin player since before season one started, For reference I started playing Kass when his attack range was 120 instead of the standard 125, I feel that Riot has always, and kept trying to push Kassadin away from his role, which he was created for. 'Melee Disabler', the /only/ reason AP Kassadin became a thing was because of his high AP ratio's, and like someone else already stated somewhere around here, instead of fixing it, they accommodated it, changing his armor penetration W to a magic damage one, changing his utility ult to part of his nuking kit by raising it's base AP. Riot caused this whole problem with Kassadin's burst by forgetting what Kassadin's role actually is.

Azlagor1 votes

totally agree here, first time i played kassa he still had the mana-shred on his W, and i played him with wits end(wich also had mana-shred back then) and tankiness, just geting in a mages face, silencing them and shreding away there mana till the silence went of, wich was also great at disabeling tanks by deleting there manabar.
I can totally understand why mana-shreding was removed from the game, but haveing a more disabling rather than nuke/assasinate role fits kassa better.

Zerodias1 votes

Without the silence in his hit, Kassadin has a really hard lanephase now, buffing the base damage on his Q, with the buffs of his shield that are currently on the pbe should do the job, helps his burst as an assasin and his lane phase. As ive seen people dont know how to properly build him yet. Ive never seen a Kassadin runing lich bane now, when its so good on him IMHO. With a buff to his shield and some base damage buff he shoudl be good to go.

Fool4aLifetime1 votes

Well seeing as everyones making notions on AP kass, has anyone seriously tryed or considered AD Kass as an alturnitve to the weak AP builds. In all honestly we all know kass's AP ratios are low base solid scaling but hes suffering from one main problem, Gold. he needs too much gold to make Rod to make Zhonyas to make tear to make void staff to make tank items. He takes too long to scale and has little kill potential by himself if opponent builds MR. I dont see the recent buffs changing any of the problems with AP kass.

But AD kassadin is an interesting beast all his own. With Tri or hell fist, he does damage both burst and sustained, slap a muramana on him and ur doing solid mixed damage and can build HP tank items to help him thrive in frays. his kit is set to use and take advantage of Spellblade effects, so until his AP version is boosted to some sort of relevance i sugjest u give this alternative build a shot see what kinda results u can get.

Keira Helsh1 votes

I've actually been playing AD Kass recently, and he's honestly a lot stronger than AP Kass right now imo. Sure his Q and E don't scale, but his W is on next hit and has a 100% AD ratio because of it. Triforce is amazing on Kass, especially with his high base AD, and CDR also helps him overall.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

right now i think his most viable spot in the game is actually jungler...with FF and a trinity later on his dmg isn´t great but sufficient and if you get some tank items he works alright to catch opponents and never let them go, as he still has an incredible strong slow and you just cannot run from him. And as a jungler it´s ok for him to not deal some major dmg, but instead being a tad more on the supportive side of things.

Though of course, he´s still not really competitive to the current Tier 1 junglers.

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