[Analysis] Let's Talk about Diana (@gypsylord)

Hyrum Graff·Jun 19, 2014·5 votes·1,085 views

For a tl;dr of suggested changes, skip to "Issues to Tackle (and Solutions)" and read the

quoted text.

###First, some context for people who didn't see the GD discussion:

Here were gypsylord (a red)'s thoughts on Diana (note: they're his personal thoughts, not Riot's official stance):

Hrrmmmm...

I have some thoughts on Diana. Wondering what you guys think. Not saying any of this will actually happen. Just spitballing.

Hypothesis: Diana is NOT an Assassin. She is an "agile fighter" with a vacuum.

My opinion is that if we continue to sell Diana as "The tanky assassin with no outs." She's never going to be balanced. If she's ahead she just crushes you with no recourse and if she's behind she just dies every fight because she can't get out. On top of that she's always going to be fighting with Akali, Fizz, and the like for viability because we've had to nerf her "vacuum" out of the game to make her assassin pattern more manageable.

To me, the most unique thing about Diana is her vacuum (if we were to make it work like one). That's something that she can bring to the team that no one else in her class has. She could be this fighter who's focused, not on one-shotting squishies, but on diving into the enemy team and knocking them all together, setting up for things like Rumble and J4 ults.

Basically I'd want to shift power out of her burst pattern and put it into her Vacuum and sustained damage (passive)

Proposed change list:

Stats - Increase Base AS

P - Greatly increase base damage and AP ratio

Q - Decrease AP ratio

W - Unchanged

E - Turn into an actual vacuum (increase pull distance and radius)

R - Remove Damage (Lowers burst and incentivizes using for movement, no more double tapping a guy 2 feet from you to secure a kill)

Thoughts? Is something like this what you'd want as a Diana player? Is removing the assassination pattern a big no-no? Is putting another vacuum into League super unhealthy?

### What defines the scorn of the moon?

Hypothesis: Diana is so unique that almost everything in her kit is a defining feature.

Her passive
The unique shape of her q
Her vacuum
Her R reset, which requires her R (arguably less unique because of nid, post-rework)
Her playstyle as an "all-in, do or die" champion (her w, while not defining, helps enforce this playstyle)

There's one feature, though, that I think defines Diana more than anything else:

The variety of builds and playstyles available to her

If you take a look at the GD thread, and the original Diana discussion, you'll notice immediately that people like her for all different reasons. Some people like being the assassin with no outs. Others like being a dps bruiser. Hell, I even know someone who likes building her FULL tank, with rylais and frozen mallet, and being the champ who distracts/locks down the enemy carries.

I have more analysis to make here, if you all are interested, but I think the more interesting thing is what to actually do about Diana, so I'll just leave it at this:

####The best Diana rework, will preserve her ability to build for a variety of playstyles.

That's a daunting task. Let's take a closer look:

## Assassin Diana

Objectives: Pop a carry, then clean up.
Playstyle: Wait in the wings until a teamfight breaks out, then dive in on the enemy team's back lines.
Weakness: Squishy. Any CC and you're dead. Engage before your team and you're dead.

## Bruiser Diana

Objectives: Engage, get the enemy grouped up so your team can do a wombo combo, do dps while being tanky
Playstyle: q-r-e-w to engage, zhonya to buy time for follow-up, auto attack a lot, so your passive does good aoe damage to all those enemies you just got grouped up.
Weakness: If you engage, you'll be tanky, but not tanky enough to survive without follow-up from your team. While your aoe dps is respectable, your burst is much lower.

## Full Tank Diana?

Objectives: Engage, get the enemy grouped up so your team can do a wombo combo, stick to the enemy carry, tank lots of damage Playstyle: q-r-e-w to engage, repeatedly q-r to the enemy carries Weakness: You do very little damage, and have less CC than most tanks.

###Issues to Tackle (and Solutions)

"How do we make Diana tanky when she builds tanky, but squishy when she builds AP, given that an aggressive shield is a really good way of enforcing her 'all in' playstyle?"
Solution: Rework Diana's W.

Diana's original shield refresh no longer scales with AP. Instead, it scales with number of enemy champions damaged. This scaling gets weaker as Diana builds more AP.

This means that Bruiser or Tank Diana can jump into the middle of the enemy team and pop her w to tank a huge amount of damage. But if AP Diana did the same thing, her shield would not be as significant, so she'd get popped anyway. It also has the side benefit of reducing AP Diana's feast-or-famine aspect: if she's ahead, she's squishier; if she's behind, she's tankier.

"How do we give Assassin Diana good burst and poor dps, but give bruiser diana bad burst and good dps?"
Solution: Number tweaks across her kit

Passive: Better bases, worse scaling, remove bonus AS and add it to Diana's base AS
R: Hit the base damage really hard, but give it very good scaling - this will do more damage than on live, on glass cannon diana Q: Also nerf the base and increase the scaling, but not as intensely as R; this ability should end up doing about the same amount of damage on glass cannon diana as live. W: This will probably just recieve straight-up damage nerfs. You should take it for the shield (this is your fallback pattern), not the damage.

This means that AS Diana doesn't need much AP to do DPS (so she can afford to build tankier), but she won't have very much burst - her skills will be used primarily to stick to her target. With this build, though, she's probably more interested in attacking groups of people to really make use of that passive, than sticking to carries. This complements what she wants to do with w and e.

Putting more of diana's lategame damage in her ult also forces her to make a choice between mobility and burst: putting that damage in q or w would lead to the Nidalee problem, where the answer to "Should I chuck my q out for massive damage?" Is always "yes."

"Diana's damage is unloaded really quickly, and is really hard to dodge - if we buff her total damage as an assassin, how do we ensure that that she can't assassinate a carry who is being properly protected by their team?"
Solution: This is a numbers thing.

Basically, Diana's numbers need to be tweaked so that a qwerr (+ lich bane) combo deals 80-90% of a carry's hp, but not more. The same combo, plus Diana's passive, should deal 100% of their hp.

In a teamfight situation, as a squishy assassin with no escape and no way to hide, if you don't kill the carry in a single combo, you will get CC'd and bursted down. As this iteration of Diana, it's near impossible to get your passive off on an enemy carry, or to get in a second spell rotation before you get CC'd, unless you charged it first. If you charged it first, the enemy can see that, and stay out of range until it runs out. Note: some of you may try to argue that it's easy enough to q-r to a different enemy, then R to the enemy carry for the passive proc. But then you're wasting damage on someone who's not the carry, and you need all your damage to kill the carry.

This means that there's a window of opportunity for the enemy team to CC and burst you between when you make your first rotation and when you get your passive off. Additionally, this means that if you do get the carry from full hp, you're still going to die afterwards, since you needed your second R to kill the carry. On the other hand, if you wait a little, to clean up, you'll be able to kill a half hp carry with only 1 R, allowing you to escape, or move on to another target.

Anyway, That's a long post - I hope that the formatting makes it easier to get through.

Thoughts? I'll be iterating on this design as people point out flaws with my current ideas.

Cheers,
Hyrum Graff

######@Vesh; @BaconHawk, good enough for a Red Hug or a PotD? Shameless self-promotion OP ;)

P.S. I also think it'd be really cool for Diana's E to have a pull-push effect on it, maybe with a larger push radius per enemy hit with the pull, because I can imagine Diana making really cool plays with it (qrew to group them, shield and damage, then e-r to scatter them and escape). However, we'd need to evaluate new Diana's balance before playing around with this one.

27 Comments

MandarrJun 19, 20141 votes

I honestly don't know how it should be approached, I like to play all three of these variants to be honest. Perhaps having this many choices may be a bad thing.

Hyrum GraffJun 19, 20142 votes

It's a bad thing if it makes Diana un-balanceable; that's why she needs a rework, because she is right now.

My proposed changes are directed towards letting Diana be good at any one role, but not good at all 3 at the same time.

NightlyreJun 20, 20141 votes

The thing about Diana is she's very versatile, much like Nidalee after her rework. She can be a strong assassin, tank-ish and bruiser and that doesn't make her un-balanceable. If she goes full AP, hard CC can stop her. Tank isn't her most viable option (I feel she's kind of like Elise in that sense) and her bruiser build isn't exactly going to make her super useful to the team.

However, in a similar fashion to Leblanc , if she doesn't get kills early in the game she's basically useless to the team. She doesn't snowball uncontrollably, she's not OP, she's well balanced and her damage is, in comparison to other ridiculously OP champs line Annie and Fizz, controllable.

I don't feel she needs a rework at all. She's one of the few well-balanced champions in game and she should remain as such.

Hyrum GraffJun 23, 20141 votes

So, I had a nice long post written out, which I lost when I accidentally reloaded the page, then lost motivation to rewrite.

The tl;dr is that:

LB has much higher base damages (like, nearly 500 damage on a full combo, higher). This means that even if she's behind, she has the ability to kill a squishy, which gives her a window back into the game. If diana gets behind, she can't fall back on her bases.
They have roughly even scaling. LB has a lot higher scaling on her qwer, but if you add in Diana's passive and lich bane, which LB doesn't usually build, Diana has 10% higher scaling, assuming she hits all her stuff.
LB has an escape (or two). Therefore she can deal damage and get out. If she didn't kill her target, she's none-the-worse for it. Diana on the other hand, does or dies.

Therefore, Diana is Much, Much, more snowball-reliant... but she lacks the bases to really be a lane bully and get fed, like LB can.

BTW, Fizz's entire combo, including lich bane, does around 400 + 40% AP less damage than LB's, and is on a longer cooldown.

DarckusMonsterzJun 19, 20141 votes

leave my diana alone plz!!!!sorry but i think its not a good idea...

Hyrum GraffJun 19, 20143 votes

She's my Diana too!

Could you tell me a little more about what you don't like? How do you play Diana? Why and How do you think these changes would affect your ability to play her the way you like?

StancealotJun 20, 20141 votes

I personally play Diana in more of an assassin role. For me I think the one thing though that makes her unique is her e. The ability to vacuum things in makes her feel unique to me. But reading this post really opened my eyes on what this champion is stuck in right now. There aren't many options to balance her current kit as it is. I do believe that having lower base damages and higher scaling does help with the separation between the multiple forms of Diana and maybe help preserve her character. I know what I am about to say sounds unbalanced but when I look at Diana and her champion the thing I want from her is the ability to stick to a target until it is dead, where escape seems futile if she lands her q. Obviously this would create volatile gameplay but I feel like that is what her niche is. Her Q is so unique and cool I feel like it should really be an ability that is difficult to get off and rewarding if you do. That is just my 2 cents and maybe someone may agree with me. Whatever happens though I really do hope that whatever happens to Diana she still feels like herself, she is in my opinion the coolest champion in the game and the only thing I wish for her is to fleshed out and a balance-able champion. Praise the moon!

Hyrum GraffJun 23, 20141 votes

Have you played bruiser diana, building item 3116 ? I've found that hitting a q on them makes it pretty much impossible for them to escape, especially if you build item 3025 too.

RunkataJun 21, 20141 votes

I am not hiding Diana is one of my 2-3 fav. champs, and I always lacked on her this "target with Q as many enemy champs", jump around them dealing let's say 1.5*(live R dmg x 1.5, not as 2 R's, but something between). Why would she have double R on single enemy, when it gives a little counterplay, enemy flashes, and u jump on him second time. Also if it would be 150% dmg, not 200% (2 jumps), it wouldn't be so punishing for enemy, right? It also wouldn't proc Lich's Bane dmg twice and skill overall would be stronger, but in teamfights, not 1;1 duels. Skilled Diana would hit 4-5 champs with Q and start jumping on them dealing dmg to each one of them. The R could become current E (then we need to lower the dmg, or give some kind of tradeoff, stacks like on Akali's ult? 2-3 for example and hitting 3rd AA (passive proc) would give instant stack renewal, so she could jump on 3 enemies, get passive, and jump once again. It's all to balance, just giving the concept) The current "vacuum" E would become an ult, much stronger slow, and bigger range, so it would help her AA and get E stack from procing passive with autoattacks and in fact jump on another enemy (4th-5th). It would be an indirect ult, coz it wouldn't deal dmg like it doesnt do it now when on E slot, but would help her "renewed" kit. My idea is all based around staying in combat, being this ap bruiser you mentioned she should be and also keeping in mind the idea behind her kit as autoattacking centered and passive-procing centered. Also this would be a great change to her as her role in teamfight, she could harm all enemies if she targeted em all with Q, and ofc autoattacked em to proc 2 passives, also the stronger/bigger vacuum on ult would be a profit to team. I have more ideas regarding her, but not only her. I'll be glad to be of help. B'regards :)

Hyrum GraffJun 24, 20141 votes

I think it would be really cool if Diana only consumed moonlight on the target she dashed to, allowing her to dash around the battlefield. it'd be even cooler the way you describe. But if they did that, they would have to turn her into a bruiser - if they kept her as an assassin, she's just deal way too much damage to everybody, because she could q, r everybody she hit, and then q again and repeat to do way too much damage.

So since I'd like to keep it so she can also be an assassin if she chooses, I opted not to do that.

Yuna HayashiJun 23, 20141 votes

Diana is a goddess with her bow and arrows. AS you consider removing her assassin play style, I think we can make her a range champion. you can keep her "vacuum" but i think what makes Diana unique is her Q. I think Diana's burst needs to be increased, without 2 ults she can hardly take out other team's carry.

Hyrum GraffJun 23, 20141 votes

I don't want to remove her assassin playstyle. My changes hopefully make her assassin playstyle deal more damage but be squishier, while her bruiser playstyle should be tankier but deal less damage.

If you allow her to take out the other team's carry without a double ult, that would make her ridiculously OP, since she could do that every 4 seconds.

I'm going to ignore the 'ranged' comment.

Sire HippingtonJun 23, 20141 votes

I'd also shift damge from her Q and most of all R onto her AAs+Passive, and a more powerfull E would be awsom, but she's need a good buff to her shield to realy make use of her AAs and initiate with her E, as currently she doesn't life to long if she trys to stay in the fight.
As most Fighters tend to be either to strong 1v1 or to weak in a clash, i'd increase her shield based on the number of nearby enemys(like Jarvans W).
I'd also change her ult a bit, like adding a small as+ms steroid or reduce the base cd and remove manacosts to compensate removing the damage, as it wouldn't feel 'Ultimate' enough as just a mobillity tool i think, and Diana needs to much mana in longer fights, wich would be the focus with such changes.

Hyrum GraffJun 24, 20141 votes

If I wanted to make Diana into a bruiser, I'd totally agree with you. But I'd like to also preserve her ability to be an assassin. That's why I proposed that we increase the scalings on her q and r, but decrease the scaling on her passive and increased its base. I wouldn't be opposed to a MS steroid when she uses her ult, either.

Sire HippingtonJun 24, 20141 votes

This would prettymuch be release-Diana: More scaleing on Q, less on the passive and more base damage.

She was pretty damn broken...

Bruiser+Asassin doesn't work balancewise, as they either work well for both roles, becoming op, or they don't work well in any role and suck, or one role would always be the clearly better one.

If u want to keep the feeling of assasin Diana, try Akali, she prettymuch feels the same, expect for the skillshot.

Hyrum GraffJun 24, 20141 votes

Not exactly. There's a history of Diana's patch changes here. Here's a summary:

Many successive nerfs to bases on q and w. In fact, the only base damage increase was by 6 damage, on her w at level 1, and in the same change they nerfed it by 30 damage at level 5.
Nerf to ratio on q
Nerf to the cooldown on R
Nerf to the range on R, then gave half of what they nerfed back.
Buffed w duration from 4 seconds to 5 seconds
Changed w scaling, from a .45 AP shield that refreshes if you detonate all charges, to a .3 AP shield that gains another .3 if you detonate all charges.
Nerfed base damages on passive
Buffed scaling on passive, but at the same time that they nerfed Lich Bane (not an actual increase in her power).

I am NOT proposing that we undo all these nerfs. In fact, I am proposing a combination of nerfs and buffs, to keep her power level where it is. What I want is this:

###Passive:

Buff Base Damage
Nerf Ratio

###Q:

Nerf Base Damages
Buff Ratio

###W: Reworked

This is a nerf to assassin Diana's shield
This is a buff to bruiser and tank Diana's shield
Damage stays around the same

###R:

Nerf Base Damage
Buff Ratio

tl;dr assassin diana gets more burst damage, but squishier. Bruiser/tank diana get less burst damage but are tankier, and keep around the same amount of sustained damage.

They can't give Diana more damage as she is now, because she'd be too bursty for how tanky she is.

And they can't give Diana more tankiness than she has now, because she'd be too tanky, for the amount of burst she has.

With my change, she won't be as tanky of an assassin or as bursty of a bruiser, so they can afford to give her better stats.

Sire HippingtonJun 24, 20141 votes

my apologise, it seems i only read ur quote from GD and not the entire post.

But there are still some open questions:

Passive: buff base, nerf ratio, how is that not a revert of her patch-history(as u said your self, the base damge got nerfed and the ratio buffed), but that wouldn't be a problem for me.

Q: nerf base so nothing is realy left as it's already rather low, making it feel pretty unrewarding without ap, especially pre 6, buff ratio wich would be a reverse off previous a previous nerf,
low base and high scaleing would increase feast or femin

W rework: it wouldn't make Diana less feast or femin, she would rely on bursting down her target 100 to 0, as she has no way to leave the fight alive. A assasin without a proper disengage is always feast or femin, as it's always do or die.
And no player would feel good if getting ap makes them squishyer...if the shield simply got no ap-scaleing, ok, but having a skill geting weaker as u get more stats would just feel wrong

R more ratio, less damgae-> more feast or femin...and again pretty unrewarding for bruiser/tanky Diana, having low base stats on it.

I wouldn't realy feel good with assasin Diana that way, as i'm totally forced to oneshot my target, and geting one-shot is the least fun thing on the reciving side, so a rather bad experience for both sides.

I also wouldn't feel to well as Bruiser/tank Diana, as lvling up skills wouldn't feel to rewarding with low basestats, and the Q+R combo wouldn't feel like more than a gapcloser, not much better than a simple lee-Q, wich would be sad for a Ultimate+Q combo.

I still don't think it is possible to have a champ that works as assasin just as well as as bruiser while offering healthy gameplay

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20141 votes

Passive:how is that not a revert of her patch-history -snip-

It does revert the patches, however, for different reasons. The passive was nerfed a long time ago; it was buffed in response to lich bane - a core item on diana - being nerfed.

Q: making it feel pretty unrewarding without ap, especially pre 6, buff ratio wich would be a reverse off previous a previous nerf,

On bruiser/attack speed Diana, your passive is where most of your damage comes from - your q is used primarily with your r, so you can stick to targets.

low base and high scaling would increase feast or famine

That would be true if Diana had no fallback pattern. That is, if she could only be an assassin.

It's true that if Diana is losing, she won't be able to build assassin very well. If she's losing, she'll go the bruiser route.

W rework: it wouldn't make Diana less feast or famine, she would rely on bursting down her target 100 to 0, as she has no way to leave the fight alive.
A assasin without a proper disengage is always feast or famine, as it's always do or die.

It would give diana a fallback pattern as a bruiser, as stated above. Assassin Diana would not be an initiator. She would wait until the fight has started, then jump in from the side to kill a carry. Then she'd stall while she waits on her cooldowns to do it again. It's true, assassin diana totally has a martyr pattern here, which I personally think is cool. Don't forget that while her shield isn't as strong, she does still have a shield.

And no player would feel good if getting ap makes them squishyer...if the shield simply got no ap-scaleing, ok, but having a skill geting weaker as u get more stats would just feel wrong

Ah I think I mis-represented this. Her shield on first cast actually gets stronger, since it does still have an ap ratio. It's the refresh part of the shield that gets weaker with more AP. Your total shield will still get stronger as you build AP, just, there will be less of a "snowball out of control, and be able to 2v1 or 3v1 with ease" aspect to her.

Here's some example numbers:

W: Diana gains a shield for: 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100 (+ 30% AP). If All her orbs detonate, her shield grows by the same value x (# of enemies hit). The bonus decreases by 1% per 6 AP.

So, A 0AP diana would get a 500 bonus on her shield if she hit all 5 enemies; a 540 AP diana would get a 100 bonus.

This has the side effect of making even assassin diana a little tankier when she dives into the midst of a bunch of enemies, giving her more time to assassinate her target (though ofc it'll be harder for her to do so).

R more ratio, less damgae-> more feast or femin...and again pretty unrewarding for bruiser/tanky Diana, having low base stats on it.

Bruiser/tanky diana is using R for mobility, and getting most of her dps from her passive (she'll stack AS - see the example build where the header for 'bruiser diana' is).

I wouldn't realy feel good with assasin Diana that way, as i'm totally forced to oneshot my target, and geting one-shot is the least fun thing on the reciving side, so a rather bad experience for both sides.

Ok, this is a fair point. Let me think about it a little more.

I also wouldn't feel to well as Bruiser/tank Diana, as lvling up skills wouldn't feel to rewarding with low basestats, and the Q+R combo wouldn't feel like more than a gapcloser, not much better than a simple lee-Q, wich would be sad for a Ultimate+Q combo.

Leveling up stats decreases the cooldowns, so she can stick better. And, bruiser/tank diana would probably max w, which would give a bigger shield.

I still don't think it is possible to have a champ that works as assasin just as well as as bruiser while offering healthy gameplay

Sire HippingtonJun 25, 20141 votes

It does revert the patches, however, for different reasons. The passive was nerfed a long time ago; it was buffed in response to lich bane - a core item on diana - being nerfed.

Lichbane never was a core item on her, atleast in higher elos. Her raw ratio are high enough to make rabadons the better damageitem, and besides that she needs tankiness so abysal and zhonyas, and usually a GA, so if u get Lich bane u get it as 5th or 6th item, not realy a core item

On bruiser/attack speed Diana, your passive is where most of your damage comes from - your q is used primarily with your r, so you can stick to targets.

If u can steady AA, that is the case asuming u got nashors or witsend, but u rarly can AA all the time, so with max cdr(wich i would always aim for on bruiser Diana), ur Q+R combo gave u ruthly the same effecktive dps as the passive in most fights.

if the manacosts would go down per level, it might feel good to level them dispite nerfing the damage, but just lowering the damage would realy lead to a weak feeling on Q and R without ap

That would be true if Diana had no fallback pattern. That is, if she could only be an assassin.
It's true that if Diana is losing, she won't be able to build assassin very well. If she's losing, she'll go the bruiser route.

I'm sure most Dianas will be happy to sell their ap-items to go bruiser once the fall behind. If u notice early u fall behind, u might switch to a bruiser built, but if u have a relative good game and than the enemies get a good dragon or baronfight putting them ahead, u won't be able to easily switch after haveing bought 2-3 items on the ap-path

W: Diana gains a shield for: 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100 (+ 30% AP). If All her orbs detonate, her shield grows by the same value x (# of enemies hit). The bonus decreases by 1% per 6 AP.
So, A 0AP diana would get a 500 bonus on her shield if she hit all 5 enemies; a 540 AP diana would get a 100 bonus.

So, a 0AP DIana gains 600 shield total while a 540AP Diana gains 362shield...thats quite a losse in total shield for building some stats, so it definitly will feel bad to built ap

Hyrum GraffJun 26, 20141 votes

Lich Bane -snip-

I don't know if this is true or not. However, I do know that Diana's passive was buffed from a .6 ratio to a .8 ratio in the same patch that lich bane was nerfed in, with the stated reason being that a lich bane nerf hurts Diana.

If u can steady AA, that is the case asuming u got nashors or witsend, but u rarly can AA all the time, so with max cdr(wich i would always aim for on bruiser Diana), ur Q+R combo gave u ruthly the same effecktive dps as the passive in most fights.

if the manacosts would go down per level, it might feel good to level them dispite nerfing the damage, but just lowering the damage would realy lead to a weak feeling on Q and R without ap

What if Q's cooldown scaled with AS instead of with CDR, like Yasuo's Q? That would give AS/Bruiser Diana much more sticking power than Assassin Diana, and make it feel good to build attack speed and get levels in q. The only thing we'd need to watch out for would be Assassin Diana building Nashors and having a CD that's way too low. But I think that can be balanced if you assume that bruiser diana will be building 2 AS items (2 of: Nashors, wits end, bork, and FF).

I'm sure most Dianas will be happy to sell their ap-items to go bruiser once the fall behind. If u notice early u fall behind, u might switch to a bruiser built, but if u have a relative good game and than the enemies get a good dragon or baronfight putting them ahead, u won't be able to easily switch after haveing bought 2-3 items on the ap-path

Building AP feels bad because of shield loss -snip-

I put out those number as an example, so you'd have an idea of what I was talking about - I put literally no thought, research or math into them. Here's what would happened if we toned back the anti-scaling a little (again, this is not what I think we should do with numbers, it's just another example for context):

Diana gains a shield for 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100 (+ 30% AP). If All her orbs detonate, her shield grows by the same value x (# of enemies hit). The bonus decreases by 1% per 8 AP.

For Reference: Live Diana's full shield is 200+.6 AP = 536 at 560 AP.

0 AP Diana who hits 5 enemies gets a 100 + 500 = 600 shield. 160 AP Diana who hits 5 enemies gets a 148 + 400 + 192 = 740 shield 560 AP Diana who hits 5 enemies gets a total shield of 268 + 150 + 252 = 670

Let's also acknowledge that 560 AP diana isn't going to have the same kind of resistances that 0AP diana is going to have, so 0AP diana still gets a bigger effective shield. (I'm not particularly happy with how strong Bruiser Diana's shield would be - maybe reducing the bonus by 1% per 7 AP is the way to go).

But that's when you hit 5 people, which is not going to happen often. Let's look at more common scenario: 2 people hit.

0 AP Diana gets a 100 + 200 = 300 shield. 160 AP Diana gets a 148 + 160 + 77 = 385 540 AP Diana gets a 268 + 60 + 100 = 428 shield.

tl;dr There are ways of tweaking the numbers so it still feels good to build AP on Diana, and that Diana doesn't have to sell her AP Items to build bruiser - she just needs to build bruiser items on top of her AP items Also, note that all I played around with was how hard her shield falls off with AP - you can change her bases, and her scalings, both on the initial shield and the refresh, and you can change the refresh scaling based on number of enemies hit, to make it so Diana's shield feels good whether you built AP or not (though, these numbers show that even full tank Diana will probably build a zhonya's as her single AP item).

The point of the anti-scaling with AP isn't to neuter Diana's shield, it's so, if she gets ahead, she still needs to think before going in - right now if Diana gets fed enough, she can engage into the middle of their team - something an assassin shouldn't be able to do.

LoftusJun 25, 20141 votes

I have to admit, at first when reading through your original post, I got pretty frustrated with how these changes would leave assassin Diana (I do enjoy a bruiser jungle Diana game here and there, but assassin Diana mid is one of the most enjoyable experiences in the game, in my opinion). As I have read through your comments, I have been put greatly at ease. I read the "general trends" you saw and I was especially glad you mentioned (to quote): "Assassin pattern would be missed... Maybe switch R and E?... If she doesn't just kill a guy how does she survive in a fight?"

I really like the changes you were discussing with the scaling/base dmg changes on the passive, q, and r and the w changes have slowly grown on me (I understand that AP-heavy Diana has to be weaker shield-wise as to not easily 1v2, 2v3, or even maybe 1v3).

I was wondering how an E/R switch would look... I was very interested in the post you wrote somewhere else about a push/pull E. I was wondering how large of a push/pull it would be and what the CD would look like. It would be very nice on Diana to be able to dive with q,w,r and then use the e to push them away for an easier get-away (although I appreciate what you were saying about the "martydom" aspect of Diana). However, even though the 'vacuum' effect is very unique to Diana, to add a push may make it a lot more like an Orianna ult or Janna ult.

I do have to agree with some comment I read about this making assassin style Diana far more feast or famine. While you did mention that if an assassin-esque Diana flopped early-mid game, he/she could start building as a bruiser. However it would be nice if there was a stronger way that if you were behind as assassin Diana, you could come back. It is nice being able to fall back onto a bruiser build, however in team select, you could have chosen Diana as an assassin for the sake of team comp, a team comp where bruiser Diana would not have fit nicely. On another note about assassin Diana, I was interested to see that you considered Lich Bane to be a core item on this form of Diana. While it was very strong pre-nerf, post-nerf I see that often Diana players only get lich bane on Diana if the enemy has a hyper-carry that needs to die. While this does make Diana far more of an assassin, I think a GREAT and important part of her assassin identity is to be able to burst a champ with her combo, but have a teeny bit of beef as to stick around for a good few AAs and maybe even a second combo. I find that having a defensive item instead of lich bane gives assassin Diana this identity.

Anyways I wasn't too surprised to see that Diana was on the table for a possible rework, even though I am mostly happy with where she is and her identity. I am very excited by some of the changes you have proposed, however I do hope you put very high emphasis on preserving (not that you have not already put emphasis on this) her assassin-type build and play style currently in place. Thanks Graff and gypsylord for working on this! I wish you the best of luck and hope you treat Diana well, so-to-speak.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20142 votes

assassin Diana mid is one of the most enjoyable experiences in the game, in my opinion

What makes her enjoyable for you? The more I know about that, the more I can keep it in mind when modifying my design.

I really like the changes you were discussing with the scaling/base dmg changes on the passive, q, and r and the w changes have slowly grown on me (I understand that AP-heavy Diana has to be weaker shield-wise as to not easily 1v2, 2v3, or even maybe 1v3).

Thanks :D

I'll be replying to Don Heulnich in a little bit, with more detail on my vision for the shield. tl;dr is that if Diana has enough AP to make the shield that much weaker than live, it's because she's snowballing and is able to 1-shot people anyway.

E/R switch and pull/push -snip-

My thought would be that Diana's push gets bigger, the more people she pulled - with only one person, it would be around the same size as the pull; with 5, it would be similar to a Janna ult (note, this idea is if you changed it to her ult. If you keep it on e, the push will always have the same radius as the pull).

Assassin style diana will be feast-or-famine -snip-

It is an issue, and I'm still thinking about it. However, I'm not sure if there's a way to do this and also preserve all of her playstyles, as anything you give to make Assassin Diana's famine more OK, will also be a huge buff to bruiser Diana if she gets ahead.

lich bane vs defensive item -snip-

I don't consider new Lich Bane to be core on her - I'd much rather build a Nashors and tank item.

I did consider old Lich Bane to be core, because it added a LOT to her burst, and added a lot to her dps. I used to build something like:

item 3020 item 3089 item 3100 item 3157 item 3001 item 3174 (or item 3115 , or item 3128 )

Anyways I wasn't too surprised to see that Diana was on the table for a possible rework, even though I am mostly happy with where she is and her identity. I am very excited by some of the changes you have proposed, however I do hope you put very high emphasis on preserving (not that you have not already put emphasis on this) her assassin-type build and play style currently in place. Thanks Graff and gypsylord for working on this! I wish you the best of luck and hope you treat Diana well, so-to-speak.

Haha, I'm not a red or anything - my say in this is as much as yours; I'm just a fan who likes to theorycraft.

LoftusJun 26, 20141 votes

<continued from original reply> When playing Diana, it feels like you are truly embodying the 'scorn of the moon' with the moonlight theme and the fast-as-moonlight R dash. Sounds a bit cliche, and I am not one for lore for the most part, but Diana does have a very strong identity in this aspect.

Anyways thats why I enjoy playing her, now to get to the rest of the post.

shield stuff

I completely agree with you on the shield and I think it is an awesome way for bruiser Diana to be even more viable.

E/R switch - push/pull stuff

Very interesting concept; I wonder if it would almost be too much. I would really enjoy seeing this in action somehow. I'm totally on board for this as long as the rest of the kit doesn't get too nerfed (or nerfed at all) due to how much stronger it would make Diana utility-wise. Have you thought about the CD at all? It would be interesting to see a Diana get rewarded for not using the push aspect (sounds wrong to try to reward not taking full advantage of a champ's kit, but bear with me) in a shorter cooldown. If you were in a 1v1 and didn't have a use for the push (unless you needed to back out), you wouldn't want the long CD that accompanies the strong push aspect of the ability - maybe it doubles the CD if you use the second part of it.

It is an issue, and I'm still thinking about it. However, I'm not sure if there's a way to do this and also preserve all of her playstyles, as anything you give to make Assassin Diana's famine more OK, will also be a huge buff to bruiser Diana if she gets ahead.

Fair (and true) point. If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about increasing the feast or famine aspect of assassin Diana. At first I was worried about this (as I mentioned it in my original post), but I would prioritize preserving all of her playstyles over reducing her feast or famine aspect. After all (after I have given it good thought) her feast or famine aspect is a part of her identity (and should be expected by anyone who plays Diana a lot): it honestly makes her even more enjoyable (contrary to conventional thought) - when you do get the feast, it is that much more satisfying and fun to play :D.

Comments on lich bane

Thanks for clarifying - just wanted to make sure you were not calculating her (possible) future ratios and bases assuming that lich bane would be a core item bought most games.

Anyways thanks for your time Graff and I am really glad to be a part (however minor it is) of this possible future Diana rework! Once again, good luck and I wish you the best on this project on the best champion in League of Legends! :D

Hyrum GraffJun 26, 20141 votes

E/R switch - push/pull stuff

Very interesting concept; I wonder if it would almost be too much. I would really enjoy seeing this in action somehow. I'm totally on board for this as long as the rest of the kit doesn't get too nerfed (or nerfed at all) due to how much stronger it would make Diana utility-wise. Have you thought about the CD at all? It would be interesting to see a Diana get rewarded for not using the push aspect (sounds wrong to try to reward not taking full advantage of a champ's kit, but bear with me) in a shorter cooldown. If you were in a 1v1 and didn't have a use for the push (unless you needed to back out), you wouldn't want the long CD that accompanies the strong push aspect of the ability - maybe it doubles the CD if you use the second part of it.

Honestly, it's all well and good to theorycraft, but some of this, I just can't know unless I were to play diana with number changes like I'm proposing, and I doubt Riot will actually go down this road, much as I'd like it if they did, because it leaves too much open - having a champ with such a variety of build paths means that there's a LOT of ways the champ can be stealth nerfed or buffed, making it hard to keep it balanced. So at the moment, I can say that while I'd like a push/pull, I'd also like it if moonlight were only consumed on the target you ult to, so you can ult around the battlefield to all the moonlighted targets, but that, I think, would make Diana OP. So, I don't really know.

I will say that there is precedence for "get extra power now, but put your abilities on a longer cooldown, in diana's kit: her ult. So I think that's actually a good implementation of a push/pull, if it needs its power toned back.

Feast or famine is ok -snip-

Feast-or-famine generally isn't healthy for the game. Let's assume it's 50% of each, in your games:

When you don't get fed, it sucks for you because you feel like you're useless and can't come back.
When you do get fed, it sucks for your opponents because they feel like they can't do anything against you.

It's much healthier for the game in general, if you feel like it's still possible for you to come back from behind, and for your opponents to come back when you're ahead (though of course, it's much easier for the team that's ahead to continue that advantage - if getting ahead gives too little of an advantage, it doesn't feel satisfying to get ahead.

Thanks for clarifying - just wanted to make sure you were not calculating her (possible) future ratios and bases assuming that lich bane would be a core item bought most games.

I'm not really calculating ratios - this is a concept - if Riot decided to implement it, they'd balance the numbers themselves.

Anyways thanks for your time Graff and I am really glad to be a part (however minor it is) of this possible future Diana rework! Once again, good luck and I wish you the best on this project on the best champion in League of Legends! :D

I'm not sure you saw my reply above - I'm not a Rioter, and this isn't a future Diana rework or anything - It's just my ideas on what Riot could do with Diana.

LoftusJun 26, 20141 votes

First off, let me say how truly awesome it is to be able to put my thoughts into this and have you respond to it in such detail. Granted I'm not a part of the PBE (would like to be; have tried to be, but still pending heh), but it is great to be able to voice your opinion on a part of such a major game in such a large community and be heard. It really is an awesome aspect of the devs and other members of Riot. Anyways to get to it:

What makes her enjoyable for you?

I had to think about that for a short while, and here is my attempt to shortly (okay maybe somewhat long) sum it up:

With a lot of other assassins, there is a period of time in which you are very vulnerable. While Diana is very vulnerable if she jumps into the middle of the fight with q/r, she does not suffer the vulnerability that comes from ult CDs. Diana's ult has such a unique aspect to it, in the moonlight aspect that is. Not only that, but her ult plays a major part in her combo and can be used many times in a fight (assuming you dont waste your second R until your Q cd is off for another ult refresh). If you take a look at Ahri or Zed, they have periods of times where they are either very vulnerable or cannot assassinate a target due to ult CDs. With Diana, you can use the ult many times during a 1v1 or teamfight.

There is nothing more fulfilling than landing a Q into an R catching someone off guard. It is very satisfying to be able to kill a target in lane immediately once you hit 6, when they are 80% HP and are not expecting the powerful burst that Diana has.

On another note, a lot of assassins have more difficult times bursting down tankier bruisers, as their very fast four spell rotation combined with the accompanying CDs only allow them to burst squishier targets. With Diana, you can fight on par with tankier bruisers or fighters in that once you blow your combo, you have it right back up in a few seconds along with a kickass passive to 1) keep your DPS high in a prolonged fight and 2) stick with your target using your q>r over and over. Although this is venturing into the bruiser Diana territory, and I understand a point of this change would be to draw a line between different Diana builds, this aspect gives assassin Diana a lot of consistency. As I mentioned above, other assassins have their one rotation of spells in a quick burst - if that burst doesn't get them low enough for one or two AAs + ignite to lend to a kill, that assassin wont be able to fight that target. Diana is able to act as a bursty assassin, killing squishies in one rotation, and/or stick with and continue fighting tankier fighters and bruisers.

I hope you can make some sense of the mess I've typed above, but tl;dr

The short CD on her ult separates her from other assassins in that she doesn't have any prolonged periods of weakness and she can get off more than one or two uses of her ult in a one on one.
It is great to be able to catch squishies off guard with Diana's quick combo (not necessarily unique)
Diana has the best of both worlds (oh god that sounded cliche): She can burst down a squishy in one rotation as well as stick to tankier fighters or bruisers and fight on par as an adept duelist, as her passive gives her great DPS and her R allows her to stick to targets reliably even when she builds as an assassin. While there is a line being drawn between assassin Diana and fighter/bruiser Diana, it is so great to be able to act as a fighter/bruiser at times while building as an assassin due to her 'sticking-power' and passive.

One last thing as to why she is so enjoyable to play is her strong identity. While I don't put massive emphasis on the lore, I surprisingly truly enjoy playing champs where I feel their kits truly represent their lore/identity. I used to play a lot of Ahri (still do a bit), and I feel that she may be the only other champ (that I have played) to have the level of connection with the kit/lore that Diana does (with Ahri's charm and 'essence' related abilities). <continued>