Runaan's Hurricane design is parasitic.

Linna Excel·Feb 18, 2014·16 votes·3,841 views

(cross posted from the main forums)

In rosewater's recent blog he says this:

A parasitic design is one in which the mechanics force players to play with, and only with, cards from the set of the cards in question.

Now LOL doesn't have cards or sets, but it does have passive effects. So let me rephrase that into LOL terms:

A parasitic design is one in which the mechanics force players to play with, and only with, the passive effects in question.

So how is Hurricane parasitic?

Simple. It's all about on-hit effects and only on-hit effects. 70% attack speed? More on-hit effects. The passive? On-hit effects all around.

I think that is the item's core deficiency and what is making it sub-par to other items.

That's how riot really screwed this item over. Yes it has potential, but when all is said and done, it is really a parasite of on-hit effects. Aside from Bork, ADCs rarely get items with on hit effects. Even Elder lizard is total crap on them now that it lost its sustain. ADCs don't get cleaver. They don't get frozen mallet. Ranged AP champs? Not very many get Nashor's tooth, the only on-hit effect AP champs really care out.

Hurricane really multiplies on-hit effects which are few and far between. ADCs have better items to get. AP champs need raw AP for late game more than they need more on-hit effects. Since hurricane doesn't give move speed, AD, AP, CDR, or Crit it's sole purpose is to multiply on hit effects. But there aren't many for the two groups of champs who can use it to get.

I think this is why it largely remains a niche item. In order to shine it needs items or kit abilities with a specific trait and since those are few and far between, this item isn't as good as it was intended to be. That's why it never became the Hydra for ranged champs that Riot wanted. Hydra gives raw damage and sustain. TBH if I were behind I'd be more tempted to build Hydra on my ADC than getting hurricane. Hurricane is trying to multiply for what a lot of ranged champs is a big fat 0.

Anything times 0 is 0, and that how the item fails.

35 Comments

RiotPhreakFeb 19, 201420 votes

I think you're right on some of this, but I disagree with some of your positioning here.

Items shouldn't be ubiquitous. I don't want to buy a Sunfire Cape on Ashe. That's not a problem.

The goal for Hurricane is not for AD Carries. They already have great multiplicative scaling. Even if Hurricane could crit, you're still better off adding IE, LW, or PD than Hurricane. And I don't think we intend to multiply them further anyway. So, that's basically "Working as intended." Same for Mages.

You could try to make a case for on-hit Kog, Jinx, or MF... In fact, you could try it on Graves and get a hell of a lot more dashes out there. This is all fine and interesting. Graves players can opt into mobility in an item choice.

However the main positioning of the item is on AP-Autoattck/On-Hit champions. Guys like Teemo, Kog, Kayle. Guys where you can buy item 3115 Nashor's, item 3124 Guinsoo's Rageblade, item 3153 BotRK, etc.

Now, it just so happens that Kayle players just abuse high AP ratios and Lich Bane to oneshot people instead, but generally speaking, Hurricane is there to give a real multiplier to On-Hit type champions. It's a sort of lynch pin item.

It might just be underpowered, but I personally find the design interesting in those realms. I think niche items are cool.

Linna ExcelFeb 19, 20143 votes

Phreak, I'm not against it being niche and I kind of like it. However I don't think there's enough play room within the realm of on hit items and champs.

I guess I think that most items should be able to justify themselves on their own terms and not be dependent on other items or kit abilities. If not there needs to be healthy support for them.

If we had a larger group of items or more champs who could justify it, that'd be fine. But it seems like there aren't enough champs with kits that would justify it and if they do, the item has a high opportunity cost as there's other stuff they can do. For instance it'd work on Orianna Orianna who builds Nashor's, but she rarely builds nashors and can justify another AS item. It's something I want to try out when I get her, but I've got other champs I want first.

Items are the same way. Right now aside from Bork, cleaver, and on a few champs Nashors, most on hit effect items themselves are pretty niche. Especially on ranged champs.

So I think with what's available to support the item and the direction champs are pushed in for build order and requirements I think there just isn't enough there for the item.

Last I looked, there's about a dozen champs who based on their kits could consider the hurricane. Not too bad. However most of those champs build away from the item in general as a necessity. The champ who gets it the most is Caitlyn Caitlyn and that is more for what it does with her passive.

Does necessity of the meta and how you are supposed to build make the item too niche? I don't know. I agree it is a good multiplier for what it does, but the thing it's trying to multiply is out of favor and has been for a long time. That's why I've been trying to make the case it needs at least something like 10% CDR or a 5% movespeed buff.

...

Here's an idea build it out of stinger item 3101 and a recurve bow. 70% AS or whatever, 10% cdr, and maybe a little movespeed for clingyness.

HellioningFeb 19, 20149 votes

But on-hit builds aren't the viable way to play them. You want to stack AP on Teemo so his blinding dart and shrooms do lots of damage. You either want to build traditional ap carry or build traditional ad carry on Kog. You want to build ap on Kayle. Various item changes (removal of the MR shred item who's name I forgot, I think Malady, reworking Bloodrazor (magical damage) into BotRK (Physical damage), etc), means that on hit builds are bad.

So if the playstyle this item is for is sub-optimal, then this item is sub-optimal.

SynCroFeb 19, 20141 votes

Personally in games when I've pulled ahead as Teemo early enough, I've found it very profitable to build a Runaan's as it makes my AP poison shred the enemy team down faster, leading to a higher chance of the heavily sought "ace". While it doesn't always mean build a Runaan's, I find it does, depending on the game, have it's viable uses.

RiotPhreakFeb 19, 20146 votes

And that's a fair criticism.

I personally think that if Kayle's E would splash Hurricane bolts, then the item would get used a lot. It would probably also be a little bit broken "/. However, it's something that's more an issue with champion kit than with item design, though. I would like if it were possible to build AP-Onhit Kog'Maw. I think it'd be a fun play-style. You're seeking for clusters of interesting targets rather than whatever's most easily reached, range willing.

I isn't a designer. I don't know how good or bad the design truly is, but I like the idea of the force-multiplier item that helps the build.

JingerbeardmanFeb 19, 20141 votes

im with you on this one Phreak, I wish on hit kog worked better as well like he did when madreds bloodrazor was around.

LeeDarkFeb 19, 20144 votes

So, Runaan's Hurricane is fine. (Which it really is. It's a unique concept with a lot of power when inside its own niche.) The question then becomes: "How do we make an on hit build equally viable to other builds for some champions?"

Linna ExcelFeb 19, 20142 votes

Well, there's ranged champs and melee champs. Both are similar, but need to be balanced differently. Then there are AP, AD, and hybrid champs. Each group has items they tend to buy and not buy.

So the next logical question to follow up yours is how do we make on hit builds for each group in a healthy manner. AP champs want some kind of AP. ADCs what AD, AS, and crit%.

Another thing you need to ask is what are things we want this group to do and what don't we want it to do. Frozen mallet has a nice on hit effect. I don't think any ranged champs get it though.

Oh and Phreak, I totally agree if Kayle's or Jinx's explosions splashed, it'd be a broken item. There are limits to what any item should do and I'm fine if neither of those things splash.

One place I think it'd be possible to have an on-hit effect is a flat life gain or mana gain effect that the doran's items have (in lieu of life steal or spell vamp). Keep it small and scale it to level and it might work as a nice level to add to an item.

LeeDarkFeb 19, 20141 votes

So, sorta Warwick's passive, in an item. I like it. It's a start.

Goth SkunkFeb 22, 20141 votes

The splash from Jinx's rockets is counted as an on-hit effect, though.

Because this would never fly with my team in Summoner's Rift, I tried it out on the Howling Abyss: I built the following, in this order:

item 3070 > item 3004 , then item 3031 > item 3035 > item 3085

People thought I was a total n00b for building Tear of the Goddess on Jinx as a first item, but I turned on Fishbones and never looked back (except to siege turrets). Once I bought Hurricane, it was absolute mayhem.

The splash from Kayle's autoattack is NOT considered an onhit affect though, so the projectiles from Hurricane do not add secondary splashes with her attacks. Nevertheless, it is still a very powerful item for Kayle because in a teamfight, the two targets standing closest to whoever she's swinging her flaming sword at actually take more damage than the person she's attacking.

Goth SkunkFeb 22, 20141 votes

Or better yet, why are there not more champions that make use of an on-hit build?

I like to call them Spellswords: Champions whose damage is tied to their attacks, but deal magic damage as opposed to physical damage.

Kayle Kayle is a prime example of this. Her autoattacks with a charged up E deal physical damage, magic damage, splash magic damage in a small radius, and shred the armor and magic resistance of her target, ensuring that additional attacks on the same target do more and more damage. Additionally, to the best of my knowledge, Kayle is the only champion that makes use of the Blade Weaving and Spell Weaving talents in the Offense Mastery tree simultaneously each time she attacks a champion with a charged up E. So not only does her target get weaker with each attack, she gets stronger.

Teemo Teemo is an on-hit champion, but his Toxic Shot is a permanent passive on-hit ability, not a spell, so he does not benefit from the same Blade Weaving/Spell Weaving mastery synergy that Kayle does. That being said, he does a ton of on-hit magic damage and DoT with Toxic Shot, so building an on-hit build on him is effective. His attack range is only 500 though, so when up against any marksman (save Sivir and Koggy) he has to put himself in danger anytime he wants to trade, making him an ideal counter to a top-lane melee champ.

KogMaw Koggy's abilities all deal magic damage and only living artillery benefits from additional AD built from his items. Once his W is activated though, he gains additional attack range and an on-hit ability that deals a percentage of maximum HP each attack in magic damage. When maxed out completely, his attack range becomes 710. His W is just like Kayle's E in that it empowers his autoattacks, so in theory this should also trigger both Blade and Spell Weaving masteries. However unlike Kayle, he can never have this ability with 100% uptime, even with 40% cooldown. It has a flat 17 second cooldown, with 8 seconds of uptime. 40% CDR would reduce the cooldown to 10.2 seconds, leaving Koggy without the ability for 2.2 seconds.

Build him with these items: item 3020 item 3115 item 3100 item 3135 item 3085 item 3089

For the record, this is the exact same build I build on Kayle when I build her for sustained teamfight DPS as opposed to 1v1 dueling.

This build boasts a total of 299 AP off of items alone, and when built on Kog'Maw, deals 9% of the maximum health of three targets in close proximity to one another every attack when his W is active (with an added up front burst damage on the first attack because of the Lich Bane proc). Given that Koggy can proc Lich Bane with insane frequency due to the low cooldowns in his kit, I am shocked that more people are not playing him more often. His only weakness is his early game, which because of his short attack range of 500, is painful.

MissFortune Miss Fortune, with an AP build, can also be made to work. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q5t-P6xe_E&feature=youtu.be) SivHD did a humourous video commentary on it called Spellfisting with AP Miss Fortune. The items are outdated, but the idea is the same. However most players do not consider AP Miss Fortune viable because unlike most other On-Hit specializing champions (exception Orianna ) MF needs multiple consecutive attacks on a target to do more magic damage on hit, whereas if built straight AD, she can deal punishing damage straight out of the gate.

Nevertheless, an on-hit Miss Fortune would have other strengths over her AD counterpart. Make It Rain is seen as an ability that simply makes chasing an AD MF difficult, but with AP MF it is alarmingly powerful. The skill itself lasts 2 seconds, and ticks every quarter of a second, doing a maximum of 310 magic damage with an 80% AP ratio if caught in the entire duration of the ability. It also slows, so if she has item 3151 in her inventory, she will make use of its full damage output.

That's all the room I have for this post.

LeeDarkFeb 24, 20141 votes

Unfortunately, those ideas all completely ignore a large portion of the on-hit items in the games. All you've really done is throw Runaan's in the builds simple because the mage uses attacks for some of the spell damage. If that is the way to go, other on-hit items need to be seriously looked at, and Runaan's should be considered for a slight change to make it more obviously preferable for AP.

SnailedFeb 19, 20141 votes

hmm. there used to be ONhit Teemo but he got nerf bat.. sigh it was all I played at that time too..

lilray98Feb 19, 20141 votes

Runnans has become a core item to my kayle build although people see it as an underated item it shreds if you know how to stack your items correctly such as item 3124 item 3100 item 3091 item 3115 item 3085 item 3089 this has become my core but in the last patch AP Kayle got nerfed slightly making her a slightly better support but I like ad top bruiser kayle now with this patch change item 3153 item 3071 item 3022 item 3078 item 3143 item 3260 I hope this helps in way runnans just increases your kill potential ive actually 1v5'd with my ap kayle prepatch

Sire HippingtonFeb 19, 20141 votes

It's a problem of the item,and a problem with all items: We lack good on-hit items like the old bloodrazor to realy make use of hurricane.

Another problem is that the currently best on-hit item is nashor, wich scales great with ap but got a low base value, so it always feels bad to not get as much ap as possible on it. If runaans would give some ap, it would be way more attraktive for the ap-onhit champs u mentioned. Another thing is the targeting, it should always target champs if ur main target is a champ, so u realy hit multiple champs with it in a fight+ it should target enemies not only in an ~400aoe(not sure about the actual number) around the main target, but also around ur self, so u can hit the backline and still deal a bit dmg to that tank infront of u.

I also think it would be nice if we had to versions of it, one for ap and one with ad(and maybe an active to mach hydra), so we eventually get an viable hurricane for the likes of graves and jinx, while we still have one that works well for ap-onhit, but the current hurricane isn't viable at all(quite fun though, and i realy would love to see the item in a better spot)

p.s. it's quite fun on lucian, as both of his passive hits will trigger runaans passive with full dmg

Sausage ScoutFeb 19, 20141 votes

It is possible to build AP on hit kog with hurricane. The bolts apply %max health(+ap ratio) to targets, since it is an on-hit effect.

jwf999Feb 19, 20141 votes

Works for attackspeed on hit teemo, man I wish I had that item back in s1, early s2

LVNsNASmurfFeb 19, 20144 votes

Let me see if I can sort this out. You want us to use things like Nashors and Hurricane on Kog and Teemo and Kayle. You realise their base on hit damage is absolutely pathetic but have high scaling?

So what on earth possessed you to think that the players would buy more weak on hits as opposed to things that use the scaling.

To use Kayle as an example, her E has a max base of 60. With hurricane, we're getting two extra lots of 60 damage, for 120 extra damage. Assuming hurricane makes less than a 33% increase in DPS from AS, all we need to do is get 160 AP to make the single target version hurt more.

Ok, now lets really take a look at why item 3074 is good. Sure it makes your AA's do AoE. But it comes with a pile of AD. That makes spells hurt. It also scales with AD. Now, you say hurricane should be an on hit thing for on hit off builds. I can't help but notice that say, MF's on hit, Kog's on hit, Kayle's on hit, Teemo's on hit all scale with AP.

So lets remake hurricane.

Gives X Ap. When AAing, fires two bolts which apply deal 10+0.5 AD+0.Y AP magic damage and applies on hit effects.

Now look. Teemo, Kayle, and Kog all love it. We grab say, item 3115 item 3085 item 3091 item 3151 item 3116 . One quick change to make on hit spell damage trigger and and we have a sweet on hit build.

Plenty of AP, MR shred, plenty of AS, and no less than 5 on hit effects from the items + our spell damage.

THATS what hurricane should be if you intend it to be an on hit item, but no, we have this pitiful joke of a pile of AS which needs actual offensive stats to be useful, scaling on things on hit champs don't buy and taking money away from offensive ranged AD champions.

Newbert NewmanFeb 19, 20141 votes

If anything, this line of thought is more in line with Runan's niche; whether this is needed/balanced or not is a different conversation.

AS+Massive AD steroid does not work, and is bad for the game. It's been tried multiple times. AS+AP steroid is already on Nashor's, but may be good in this way too.

Peacemaker9669Feb 19, 20141 votes

I think the issue lies in that the champions that might be able to utilize it well are better off with other items. The game has changed quite drastically in that not many people have the time to utilize a lot of attack speed since most champs that are played are usually really mobile. Hurricane is a great item on teemo, graves, TF, Kog, but comparing that to other items, it is a little underpowered since they can increase their on hit effects with AP/AD. But this is all my opinion.

MandaariFeb 19, 20141 votes

I think the biggest problem isn't that ADCs have better multiplicative scaling with AD/AS/Crit/ArPen, but that they need all of that multiplicative scaling to work well. Hurricane doesn't scale with crit, which automatically kills it because it because ADCs pretty much require crit. Not only that, but Hurricane contends with Shiv and PD for an item slot. Hurricane only gives AS. I'm not saying Hurricane should be another zeal item, but it lacks so much in comparison to what you're giving up.

On hit champions have historically been pretty weak. Items with on hit effects only scale off of attack speed. The sole exception to this is the new Nashor's Tooth. ADCs scale off multiple stats that all scale with each other. To top it off, on hit effects generally do not affect structures.

Another problem with on hit champions is that their stats and kits generally aren't really cohesive with an auto attack heavy playstyle. If you look at ADCs you usually find long range and/or some mobility. Kog has the range without any mobility. Teemo has some mobility and a pretty good kit for dueling ADCs, but severely lacks range and can overwrite his own dot with repeated attacks against the same target. TF has pretty lackluster range and no mobility. Kayle on the other hand has strong scalings with her abilities, can kite well with her Q despite her range, and doesn't lose damage like Teemo does.

With all of these problems together on hit just isn't a very effective mechanic. I think on hit as a mechanic needs to be reworked. More on hit items should scale with AP rather than by a flat amount, existing on hit AP scalings should be a little stronger, and on hit effects should apply to structures in more cases.

SnailedFeb 19, 20141 votes

I guess they removed all these onhit AP items as Riot thught they were OP at that time..

Now they can change it back...but balanced please...

NoxiousIceFeb 19, 20141 votes

Honestly if they don't want Kayle's AP "abused" they need to nerf it (like they did) and give back her damage bonus on it so that focusing more around her Righteous Fury becomes a viable option. The "abuse" of her one decent AP damage ratio is only the natural progression of having her sustained damage nerfed.

DantilqFeb 19, 20141 votes

Well if the item isn't for ADC, then why is it in the recommended build for several champs?

LOTS of low-level adc players think the item is awesome, because it looks cool, and gives you waveclear. Currently the item is a huge noobtrap.

It have its niche I agree, but it's not saying it clearly "I am niche"!

PaladinNephMar 2, 20141 votes

all I ask is that you don't make runaan's more useless to ADCs than it already is.

as it stands? honestly? runaan's is the most underrated item in LoL. it adds a lot to almost any ADC build when used correctly.

PackdemonFeb 19, 20144 votes

The problem I see with a Runaan's is that it's mostly just good for clearing minion waves and takes the spot of a more viable item. If you are facing a single target none of the on-hit arrows come into play. The way you (Riot) should design the Runaan's is if there is only a single target then both (of the passive's) arrows should hit that single target, and the passive should just operate the way it normally does amongst the presence of multiple enemies. Now that extra damage per hit to a single target isn't that much, but with enough AS/AD it can make Runaan's dynamic enough for both single- and multi-way combat. Even with that boost I'm still not sure if it would be a cost efficient and viable enough item to purchase. If that isn't good enough for you then you can also make critical hit damage possible on the passive, or rather than do both you can choose between the two.

Newbert NewmanFeb 18, 20143 votes

I get Cleaver with MF. Maybe not after the rework but up til now that's been the way to go.

But I don't buy Runaans with MF. Don't need the AS as much as raw AD.

Riot hasn't yet been able to make an item like Hydra for ADC; you give it too many stats and it's a must buy, if you make it underwhelming it becomes "niche". That being said it's a cool idea and it you need a ton of AS right away there's nothing better.

SeXyMuFfiNdaGoDFeb 19, 20142 votes

Personally I prefer items that solve a problem and add utility. Runnans although niche doesn't really do anything for a champion. Like how others who have said this before, there is always something better. For example a good niche item would be a runaans that gave AS with a small AOE on attack like item 3077 this would make it so that ranged AA based champions who lack waveclear could clear waves much faster. This item may be open but it has a purpose and a reason to be built on certain champions. Runaans really does nothing but add damage which is easy to get from other items that are better. I believe ruunans shuld be relooked at to solve problem for certain characters vs just being on-hit based.

burdluver90Feb 19, 20142 votes

Runans on Varus, 3 auto attacks super fast, hit 3 champions with 3 procs of your blighted quiver.

Cast q or e.

Win

ElisfrFeb 19, 20141 votes

This.

Runaans is very strong on several champs, very weak on many. Then again, we have a ton of those items.

Dabaws91Feb 18, 20141 votes

Good point, upvoted.

NightmanflockFeb 19, 20141 votes

Am I wrong to think that this item, in the right circumstance, can actually be pretty damn usable on a Caitlyn (for all the headshots) or Kog'Maw, even if build AD, because of his W? It also helps Ashe kite like no tomorrow with more frost shots. Am I saying it's a good buy every game on these champions? Not by a long shot. But it has a niche, imo.

Linna ExcelFeb 20, 20141 votes

Cait is the main user of it. :)

Is it usable? Sure.

Can you win with it? It has a good win rate when you do get it, but I think the people who do get it are usually ahead and trying to finish off the game.

Is it optimal? Not often.

NeroUSFeb 20, 20141 votes

The problem with niche builds at the moment is that they are almost never used and even when they are used its questionable whether they are better than the standard builds.

Really, riot needs a larger number of items to play with so that they can diversify the picks more. I think it would be healthy for the game to have 10-15 more items; these could then be made to enable more hybrid builds.

Hybrid builds in turn would give Riot room to diversify the champion pool by increasing the number of ADCs that scale with AP. An item that gave Crit and AP would be a good item along these lines.

It would diversify bot lane a lot if Hybrid Ezreal or Tristana or Kog'Maw was viable, especially since there are many more AD choices elsewhere on the map. It might even open up opportunities for new champions to enter the ADC role like Kennen, TF and Annie.

Moreover, it would make both the standard builds and new builds situational without a 1 size fits all solution.

KogMaw Ezreal Tristana Kennen TwistedFate Annie