Morg Interactions with multi-stage CC and Zoe's E (The Game Disagrees With CertainlyT)

CLus·Nov 30, 2017·3 votes·1,075 views

The Zoe interaction comes at the end.

Note that Morgana's shield displays "spell immune" even as she gets stunned anyway. Further, the debuff for 'drowsy' goes away and is replaced with a new debuff, presumably 'sleep', implying they are two separate effects. This implies Black Shield should stop the second effect from taking place as long as it is up. Everything about this interaction at the end of this video points to intentionally coding this differently than every other similar ability interaction in the game. The game itself lets you know you shouldn't be getting cc'd and how bs it is that you are anyway. When you're done making money off your new shiny bauble, riot, please fix this.

27 Comments

LostFr0stNov 30, 20174 votes

CertainlyT posted a direct reply about this very subject:

"CertainlyT comment on the interaction between Zoe's E and Morgana's E:

Hey Mudinthewater. I chose this model after some thought, though it was a close call. Ultimately what is in game right now is as follows: There is one moment to Black Shield Zoe's Sleep, and that is when the target would be hit by the missile/trap and become Drowsy.

This model offers the most play for both parties: Morgana has the ability to Black Shield the Drowsy, but she has to use her Black Shield in response to the spell cast itself, which might be a waste if she or her ally dodge.
The alternative of Black Shielding Drowsy, having your Black Shield break and watching your ally fall asleep seemed problematic for other reasons -- the Morgana player would be punished for doing what seems optimal (reacting quickly and exercising good judgment about their ally's dodging capabilities).
This is most consistent with how Black Shield works elsewhere. Here is where we came to different conclusions. You have chosen a number of delayed CCs that have conditionals on them (of course Black Shielding with 3 stack Braum P mark on you blocks the follow on stun, we haven't initiated the stun sequence yet). There aren't a huge amount of true multistage CCs in League. I used Nasus W (a progressive slow, which Morg E does not stop from progressing) and Malphite/Vi R (Knock Ups with follow on Stuns after the target lands which is not prevented by Black Shield).
This is most consistent with how Black Shield has been re-shaped on over time -- the spell was originally developed as a Cleanse + CC immunity but we preferred the anticipatory play model over the purely reactive one. I am always open to revisiting these things, especially on very close calls like this. It would be better to focus the discussion on what generates better gameplay, since there is no "right answer" in terms of how the game functions elsewhere."

source:https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7fpn0f/morgana_blocks_every_multistage_cc_with/dqe1gco/

CLusNov 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

CertainlyT posted a direct reply about this very subject:

This model offers the most play for both parties: Morgana has the ability to Black Shield the Drowsy, but she has to use her Black Shield in response to the spell cast itself, which might be a waste if she or her ally dodge.

The alternative of Black Shielding Drowsy, having your Black Shield break and watching your ally fall asleep seemed problematic for other reasons -- the Morgana player would be punished for doing what seems optimal (reacting quickly and exercising good judgment about their ally's dodging capabilities).

This is most consistent with how Black Shield works elsewhere. Here is where we came to different conclusions. You have chosen a number of delayed CCs that have conditionals on them (of course Black Shielding with 3 stack Braum P mark on you blocks the follow on stun, we haven't initiated the stun sequence yet). There aren't a huge amount of true multistage CCs in League. I used Nasus W (a progressive slow, which Morg E does not stop from progressing) and Malphite/Vi R (Knock Ups with follow on Stuns after the target lands which is not prevented by Black Shield).

This is most consistent with how Black Shield has been re-shaped on over time -- the spell was originally developed as a Cleanse + CC immunity but we preferred the anticipatory play model over the purely reactive one. I am always open to revisiting these things, especially on very close calls like this. It would be better to focus the discussion on what generates better gameplay, since there is no "right answer" in terms of how the game functions elsewhere."

source:https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7fpn0f/morgana_blocks_every_multistage_cc_with/dqe1gco/

I've read that comment. It doesn't hold up to the fact that the game knows its two stage cc, that it should be blocked, and that you should be spell immune. There is no reason to have it work this way that is consistent with the actual game mechanics. As far as what feels best in terms of gameplay, the answer is obvious and it comes down to Zoe is meant to have a cc that plays around spell shields and invulns (see all the invulns that don't work/ are useless against it) that other cc's don't or it wouldn't have been implemented as a "new form of cc" in the first place.

LostFr0stNov 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I've read that comment. It doesn't hold up to the fact that the game knows its two stage cc, that it should be blocked, and that you should be spell immune. There is no reason to have it work this way that is consistent with the actual game mechanics.

Spell shields don't make the person debuff immune though.

As far as what feels best in terms of gameplay, the answer is obvious and it comes down to Zoe is meant to have a cc that plays around spell shields and invulns (see all the invulns that don't work/ are useless against it) that other cc's don't or it wouldn't have been implemented as a "new form of cc" in the first place.

While I don't think the current version is anywhere near perfect, I think it should ideally work like Braum passive. So--->block either E application or the sleep if the shield remains unbroken. This would be more intuitive and allow Zoe to counterplay the shield through Q bursting through it to get the sleep to be applied (instead of always getting the sleep and thus the bonus dmg vs spell-shielded targets).

SalronNov 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Spell shields don't make the person debuff immune though.

While I don't think the current version is anywhere near perfect, I think it should ideally work like Braum passive. So--->block either E application or the sleep if the shield remains unbroken. This would be more intuitive and allow Zoe to counterplay the shield through Q bursting through it to get the sleep to be applied (instead of always getting the sleep and thus the bonus dmg vs spell-shielded targets).

The counterplay is Morg blocking the bubble from the start

LostFr0stNov 30, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7t0HbxUy,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-30T01:53:21.838+0000)

The counterplay is Morg blocking the bubble from the start

Currently yes. But compare that to Braum passive where Morg can block both. It's a discussion that the community and gameplay will need to have in order to balance Zoe.

The EcdysiastNov 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

CertainlyT posted a direct reply about this very subject:

This model offers the most play for both parties: Morgana has the ability to Black Shield the Drowsy, but she has to use her Black Shield in response to the spell cast itself, which might be a waste if she or her ally dodge.

The alternative of Black Shielding Drowsy, having your Black Shield break and watching your ally fall asleep seemed problematic for other reasons -- the Morgana player would be punished for doing what seems optimal (reacting quickly and exercising good judgment about their ally's dodging capabilities).

This is most consistent with how Black Shield works elsewhere. Here is where we came to different conclusions. You have chosen a number of delayed CCs that have conditionals on them (of course Black Shielding with 3 stack Braum P mark on you blocks the follow on stun, we haven't initiated the stun sequence yet). There aren't a huge amount of true multistage CCs in League. I used Nasus W (a progressive slow, which Morg E does not stop from progressing) and Malphite/Vi R (Knock Ups with follow on Stuns after the target lands which is not prevented by Black Shield).

This is most consistent with how Black Shield has been re-shaped on over time -- the spell was originally developed as a Cleanse + CC immunity but we preferred the anticipatory play model over the purely reactive one. I am always open to revisiting these things, especially on very close calls like this. It would be better to focus the discussion on what generates better gameplay, since there is no "right answer" in terms of how the game functions elsewhere."

source:https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7fpn0f/morgana_blocks_every_multistage_cc_with/dqe1gco/

So it should be revisited, since they didn't playtest it enough.

LostFr0stNov 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So it should be revisited, since they didn't playtest it enough.

It can indeed be revisited, but I don't think "didn't playtest it enough" is quite right.

They have limited playtests and came to the current functionality after talking about it a ton internally. There's no way that they can match the sheer volume of play that even one day of Zoe being on live gives them. Her being live also has the added benefit of feedback from all regions instead of just the Diamond+ players on the playtest team.

If we have a good argument, we (as the mass of players) can change that functionality now that she's released.

The EcdysiastNov 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It can indeed be revisited, but I don't think "didn't playtest it enough" is quite right.

They have limited playtests and came to the current functionality after talking about it a ton internally. There's no way that they can match the sheer volume of play that even one day of Zoe being on live gives them. Her being live also has the added benefit of feedback from all regions instead of just the Diamond+ players on the playtest team.

If we have a good argument, we (as the mass of players) can change that functionality now that she's released.

I wouldn't say they have no way. The PBE does exist, and feedback from it is often disregarded.

LostFr0stNov 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say they have no way. The PBE does exist, and feedback from it is often disregarded.

Pbe is mostly for bugs. Matchmaking sucks there. Not to say they didn't likely get dozens/hundreds of reports for the interaction being a bug. [sg-miss-fortune]

SalronNov 30, 20173 votes

Zoe E isn't multistage CC, it's all applied at once, the sleep is simply delayed, like Nasus wither cannot be affected by a late black shield The second stage of all tether based CC like karma, morg, lb, etc. is a seperate portion of the ability from the first hit and can be avoided entirely

Braum passive isn't even multistage CC it's literally just a stun on the 4th hit, there is no other stage to this

CLusNov 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7t0HbxUy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-30T01:52:50.336+0000)

Zoe E isn't multistage CC, it's all applied at once, the sleep is simply delayed, like Nasus wither cannot be affected by a late black shield The second stage of all tether based CC like karma, morg, lb, etc. is a seperate portion of the ability from the first hit and can be avoided entirely

Braum passive isn't even multistage CC it's literally just a stun on the 4th hit, there is no other stage to this

This isn't true according to the way the game is coded if you watch the video. The drowzy debuff applies and runs out. Then a second debuff applies to coincide with the sleep. This implies two separate cc's or at the very least that the cc is being applied AFTER the spell shield goes up. This is particularly noticeable because spell shield says "spell immune" as the sleep effect happens. Black shield clearly thinks its supposed to block the cc and yet its been coded to work differently than every other instance of cc in the game even though mechanics already in place within the game say the cc shouldn't go through.

SalronNov 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

This isn't true according to the way the game is coded if you watch the video. The drowzy debuff applies and runs out. Then a second debuff applies to coincide with the sleep. This implies two separate cc's or at the very least that the cc is being applied AFTER the spell shield goes up. This is particularly noticeable because spell shield says "spell immune" as the sleep effect happens. Black shield clearly thinks its supposed to block the cc and yet its been coded to work differently than every other instance of cc in the game even though mechanics already in place within the game say the cc shouldn't go through.

It's not multistage CC because there is no additional condition that needs to be met after the initial spell hit Every multistage CC has some initial application and requires either a tether to stay in range, multiple hits(braum/sej), Eve has to hit after charm is prepped

None of these behave like Zoe E which is only 1 hit

{quoted}

This is particularly noticeable because spell shield says "spell immune" as the sleep effect happens.

What does it matter what black shield says? It's simply coded to display that text whenever the target is CCed in any shape or form, that's literally it

DotElevenNov 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7t0HbxUy,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-30T03:54:38.467+0000)

It's not multistage CC because there is no additional condition that needs to be met after the initial spell hit Every multistage CC has some initial application and requires either a tether to stay in range, multiple hits(braum/sej), Eve has to hit after charm is prepped

None of these behave like Zoe E which is only 1 hit

What does it matter what black shield says? It's simply coded to display that text whenever the target is CCed in any shape or form, that's literally it

Karma's Focused Resolve. As long as she stays in range it works just like Zoe's Sleep except Morgana can Black Shield the Snare gets blocked.

SalronNov 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Karma's Focused Resolve. As long as she stays in range it works just like Zoe's Sleep except Morgana can Black Shield the Snare gets blocked.

How is that any different from any of the other tethers

DotElevenNov 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7t0HbxUy,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-30T04:06:22.235+0000)

How is that any different from any of the other tethers

I didn't say it was different from other Tethers, I was comparing it as something much more similar to Zoe's Sleep than Sej/Braum's stuff. The only real difference between how Zoe's Sleep and Karma's Snare function is that Black Shield will block the Snare when placed later but not the Sleep.

CLusNov 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7t0HbxUy,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-30T03:54:38.467+0000)

It's not multistage CC because there is no additional condition that needs to be met after the initial spell hit Every multistage CC has some initial application and requires either a tether to stay in range, multiple hits(braum/sej), Eve has to hit after charm is prepped

None of these behave like Zoe E which is only 1 hit

What does it matter what black shield says? It's simply coded to display that text whenever the target is CCed in any shape or form, that's literally it

What does it matter what the shield says? The shield is implying you should be spell immune and arent. This is the only cc in the game that causes this interaction. If you are "spell immune" and are cc'd these are two disparate things. The debuff applied by the bubble shows it being a multi-stage cc (two separate debuffs). The shield points out that it is a cc that happens AFTER the shield is applied which also shouldn't occur. Either one of those points speaks against you. Its not made up. Its actually coded in the game. This was a design choice that runs counter to every other similar instance, and the wrong choice limiting counterplay.

Leaf of the lakeNov 30, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7t0HbxUy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-30T01:52:50.336+0000)

Zoe E isn't multistage CC, it's all applied at once, the sleep is simply delayed, like Nasus wither cannot be affected by a late black shield The second stage of all tether based CC like karma, morg, lb, etc. is a seperate portion of the ability from the first hit and can be avoided entirely

Braum passive isn't even multistage CC it's literally just a stun on the 4th hit, there is no other stage to this

The problem with saying that "it's all applied at once" is that if you try to cleanse the drowsy, you still fall asleep. This is clearly inconsistent.

Busty DemonessNov 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7t0HbxUy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-30T01:52:50.336+0000)

Zoe E isn't multistage CC, it's all applied at once, the sleep is simply delayed, like Nasus wither cannot be affected by a late black shield The second stage of all tether based CC like karma, morg, lb, etc. is a seperate portion of the ability from the first hit and can be avoided entirely

Braum passive isn't even multistage CC it's literally just a stun on the 4th hit, there is no other stage to this

The problem is that this is not qualified as a "progressive CC" because cleansing the Drowsy means you still fall asleep. It's applying two separate CC immediately on contact, with one having its effects delayed. If you were to Cleanse Nasus' Wither, you remove any future progression. Again, an inconsistency.

AnonagonNov 30, 20172 votes

None of the stuff showed in the video is what "multistage CC" refers to, besides Zoe's E and Nasus's W, which surprise works consistently with Zoe's E.

Things like Karma and Noc's tethers, Braum's and Sej's counters, and others don't apply any the CC until they "trigger" after a certain time or a certain number of stacks.

You know what would be a much more applicable comparison? Chogath's Q, which applies a 1.5 second slow after the target is knocked up for 1 second. If you spellshield a target who has already been knocked up by his Q, the slow will still apply, just like the Zoe interaction.

Busty DemonessNov 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

None of the stuff showed in the video is what "multistage CC" refers to, besides Zoe's E and Nasus's W, which surprise works consistently with Zoe's E.

Things like Karma and Noc's tethers, Braum's and Sej's counters, and others don't apply any the CC until they "trigger" after a certain time or a certain number of stacks.

You know what would be a much more applicable comparison? Chogath's Q, which applies a 1.5 second slow after the target is knocked up for 1 second. If you spellshield a target who has already been knocked up by his Q, the slow will still apply, just like the Zoe interaction.

Nasus' W can be cleansed to remove all future effects. This is not the case with Zoe's E. It still becomes an inconsistency.

However, you bring up an excellent point about why Cho's Rupture still applies the slow if the shield was late, and that's because both CC are applied at the same time upon impact. This also marks it as an inconsistency because it's intended as a PROGRESSIVE effect.

AnonagonNov 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7t0HbxUy,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-11-30T05:48:35.707+0000)

Nasus' W can be cleansed to remove all future effects. This is not the case with Zoe's E. It still becomes an inconsistency.

I'm not familar with the current interactions between Zoe's E and Cleansing effects, but Morg's E isn't one. Of course, I think that Zoe's E should be changed to work consistently with Nasus' W, Cho's Q, and any other similar spells if it currently doesn't.

However, you bring up an excellent point about why Cho's Rupture still applies the slow if the shield was late, and that's because both CC are applied at the same time upon impact. This also marks it as an inconsistency because it's intended as a PROGRESSIVE effect.

I don't understand what you mean here. As far as it appears to me, Cho's Q applies all its effects on the initial hit, and therefore the initial hit must be blocked to avoid any of its effects. This seems logically consistent with Zoe's E and Nasus' W.

Busty DemonessNov 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm not familar with the current interactions between Zoe's E and Cleansing effects, but Morg's E isn't one. Of course, I think that Zoe's E should be changed to work consistently with Nasus' W, Cho's Q, and any other similar spells if it currently doesn't.

I don't understand what you mean here. As far as it appears to me, Cho's Q applies all its effects on the initial hit, and therefore the initial hit must be blocked to avoid any of its effects. This seems logically consistent with Zoe's E and Nasus' W.

Basically, when CertainlyT said it was most consistent like this, he lied.

In no other example is Zoe's E following the same pattern. Zoe's E follows its own pattern that tries to act like a progressive CC but instead breaks the rules of "progressive CC" and "conditional delayed CC".

The only condition for Zoe to put someone to sleep is for them to step on the trap or get hit by the projectile. The conditional of Drowsy does not apply because if it is cleansed the target will still be put to sleep (Nasus' Wither is the contradicting precedent). Being a delayed CC doesn't truly apply either because it bypasses the immunity even when said immunity would normally block it (Nocturne's E and Morgana's R are the contradicting precedents).

The only skill that actually follows that trend is Cho's Rupture, however that assumes that the slow is applied when the target lands and not as soon as it's hit (for example, if knocked up for 1 second and slowed for 1 second after, a slow of 2 seconds is applied immediately on being hit). At that point, Tenacity (we'll go with 35%) should reduce the slow to 0.3 seconds after landing. However, this still isn't totally consistent due to Drowsy being its own progressive CC and Sleep being a separate CC entirely, delayed and unaffected by whether Drowsy lasts the full duration.

There is no consistency within Zoe's CC that follows the pattern of any other. It breaks the rules of both progression and delayed and that's a problem.

Busty DemonessNov 30, 20171 votes

The best way to say CertainlyT is wrong is by comparing it to Nocturne's E, tether fear. The drowsy itself is not a CC, just the delay before it. To consider "drowsy" the first stage of the CC (when it doesn't actually do anything, which means it doesn't apply CC on its own) is also contradictory given Karma's and Morgana's tethers.

Leaf of the lakeNov 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7t0HbxUy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-30T04:08:32.036+0000)

The best way to say CertainlyT is wrong is by comparing it to Nocturne's E, tether fear. The drowsy itself is not a CC, just the delay before it. To consider "drowsy" the first stage of the CC (when it doesn't actually do anything, which means it doesn't apply CC on its own) is also contradictory given Karma's and Morgana's tethers.

"Drowsy" is actually a delayed slow; you'll notice your movement slows to a stop right before you fall asleep. This slow can be cleansed, too, but you'll still fall asleep after the delay.

Busty DemonessNov 30, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7t0HbxUy,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-11-30T04:17:03.855+0000)

"Drowsy" is actually a delayed slow; you'll notice your movement slows to a stop right before you fall asleep. This slow can be cleansed, too, but you'll still fall asleep after the delay.

Even worse.

Because now that's simply not progression, that's 2 different CC with one being applied separately and delayed.