Concerns for the Jungle Role
Note: quoting doesn't want to cooperate so sorry about that, i don't have the patience to go back and fix
TLDR: I think Riot is bad at wording. Scuttler isn't a must take, but if you contest it and lose it, you're going to be at a disadvatage.
So Riot has announced they plan to test some changes for 8.10 pbe cycle for the jungle that should ship in midseason patch (8.11). These changes are as follows:
- There is now only one Rift Scuttler on the map at any given time. The spawn location will be determined randomly, with a lot of notice given ahead of time to where it's going to spawn. Its rewards are also substantially higher than on Live
> * Jungle experience is down early game: most notably this means that routes to level (3) are not as simple as going Buff -> Camp -> Buff. Instead, you hit 3 with the following routes:
> * 2 standard camps and a Rift Scuttler
> * 3 camps if you include a Krug clear
> * 4 standard camps
> * Talisman will return substantially more mana regen based on your missing mana as you clear the jungle
> * Runic Echoes will get a face lift to make it more mage friendly
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Rift Scuttler Specific Changes: > > * Base Health :: 800 >>> 1200 > * Health Scaling :: 800 +200 (after first spawn) +60 per level >>> 1200 + 25 per level > * Experience Granted :: 10 >>> 170 > * Respawn Time :: 180 >>> 150 > * [NEW] Now only one exists on the map at a time > * Initial Spawn Time :: 2:15 >>> 1:40 > * Gold Reward :: 70 >>> 100 > * Mana Reward On Death :: 10-40 (based off missing Mana percent) >>> 50-200 (based off missing Mana percent)
My initial reaction is as follows:
- Having only one rift scuttler sounds nice as moving through river can kinda suck if the enemy has both at present.
- Jungle experience being down early game kindof sucks, but since we already can be a level or two ahead early on it makes a bit of sense, and should be manageable. That is as long as it is only early game/first clear.
- Given the time it takes to take Krugs and Rift Scuttler, especially with the health changes to Scuttler, it's not too bad that they give more xp. the clear times should be comparable. Probably want to optimize around whether you can take Scuttler, Krugs, or another two other camps faster. Of course thinking of whther you can fight early on.
- More mana is really nice, just tried playing Fiddlesticks yesterday, and that would help a lot.
- Runic echos is really weak right now as a jungle item, at least on damage output and late game potential, so hopefully they mean to fix that.
So none of the changes seem too outrageous, at least to me. I have a problem though with why they are pushing these changes, what they hope to accomplish with them, and what I was hoping to have fixed in the jungle.
Their goals:
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MQob4lFt,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-27T20:07:00.720+0000) > > **Goals: ** > > * Reduce early lane pressure from junglers > * Increase the number of jungle v. jungle interactions in the early game > * Encourage variation in optimal pathing > * Reduce mana restraints as a hard blocker for champions that want to jungle
My thoughts on each:
- That's fine, I really dislike this gank-heavy meta. It feels really bad if you're in a position where you can't get a good gank off.
- This isn't as nice. For some jungle champions that will be really fun, for others if the interactions are forced (like majority of games you're forced to face the jungler early) then it might just push some champions out of the jungle, or make them weak due to that meta shift. If they meant to say increase the opportunities rather than just increasing interactions outright, then fine, that's a good thing.
- I don't really see the point myself in this goal, but this goal itself shouldn't hurt anyone too much.
- Honestly a change that I've wanted/ a goal I was looking for in the upcoming changes.
Here's where the problem lies though.
The way they're meeting these goals creates other problems, and for some champions and players, they're worse problems than at current. They're making a less gank-heavy meta by making it take longer to reach level 3 for junglers. Junglers already typically have a weak late game, curving off the early game to be more fair to laners while giving opportunities to still interact early is great, and the right solution I think, but you've got to compensate the late game otherwise it's a nerf to the role as a whole not just the early game. If we take longer to hit level 3, then we hit all other spikes later too. The Scuttle may compensate this if the the xp nerfs to camps in general that you're putting out is only to first clear, but there was already a previous problem with xp (not gold so much) late game from camps. I personally think it would be worth testing camp xp scaling with their level, maybe have it on the jungle items so as to not encourage camp stealing (if that's something to worry about?).
Jungler v jungler interaction opportunities are again, nice. But if you're trying to force them to happen (getting heavily penalized for avoiding going after Scuttler in the first place) then that is bad. From what Riot is saying it seems that that is exactly what occurs. Now it could be a miscommunication, and they may be trying to say the changes penalize heavily if you try to contest Scuttler and fail to get it, but so far that's not how it's looking. I personally don't see any reason how not going after Scuttler penalizes so heavily, but I could be wrong. If it does indeed penalize, thus forcing optimal clear to always be Scuttler then you're achieving the interaction goal at the cost of the pathing goal. On top of that there are many champions it penalizes more than others.
As far as my own expectations, for the most part they're fulfilled assuming that it is just bad wording/miscommunication. With there needing to take more camps early/spend more time farming jungle early counter-jungling becomes more viable as it does more damage. Not sure it fulfills the expectation I had that I can play a more passive style if I want in the jungle (although that's hard to tell at this point).
