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When will Riot do something about Shaco ?

Kobune·4/8/2019, 1:11:26 AM·66 votes·20,748 views

Hi there, I'm Kobune.

Do you know this champion Shaco ?

This champion is called Shaco and used to be an assassin. Yes, I said "used to be".

Why? Because right now he doesn't feel like he is an actual assassin. He actually feels like... He is nothing.

The reason behind this is simple: an unjustified "rework" on the assassin patch, direct and indirect nerfs without compensations.

Shaco before that "rework" was a meta-breaker champion, he always was good without being overpowered.

Now I will explain why I've wrote "rework" in quotes.

That "rework" consisted in a global nerf of Shaco.

Since my post concerns the actual Shaco we will compare Shaco's Abilities before the "rework" to Shaco's Actual Abilities:

  • ** Old Passive** : Shaco deals 20% bonus damage when striking an enemy from behind with his basic attacks or Two-Shiv Poison.

  • New Passive : Basic attacking an enemy from behind critically strikes for 30% (+ Infinity Edge 25%) (+ 25% AD) (+ 40% AP) Attack damage bonus physical damage, increased to 100% (+ Infinity Edge 25%) (+ 25% AD) (+ 40% AP) against monsters. Cooldown: 3 seconds per unit.

What is the problem?

It looks like a buff at first, but it actually is a nerf because you can't make use of the New Passive as often as the old one because it has a 3 seconds cooldown per unit.

  • Old Q : Shaco instantly blinks to the target location and stealths for up to 3.5 seconds, also causing his next basic attack within 6 seconds to critically strike for bonus critical damage (140 / 160 / 180 / 200 / 220%). Cooldown: 14 seconds

  • New Q : After a 0.125s delay, Shaco blinks to the target location, temporarily becoming invisible for (1.5 / 2.25 / 3 / 3.75 / 4.5s). After exiting invisibility, his next basic attack within 0.25 seconds deals (10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50) (+40% AD) (+30% AP) bonus physical damage and reduces Deceive's Cooldown reduction icon cooldown by 2.5 seconds. Cooldown: 16 / 15.5 / 15 / 14.5 / 14s

What is the problem?

Actually there are a lot of problems. First it is a too heavy nerf to Shaco's early game because of the short invisibility duration but also because of the base damages of the spell "(10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50)" it is really a joke, it is so low it feels like it doesn't even count because of the base armor of the champions, and because of the really short invisibility duration early, you can't even have the time to reach the enemy and apply them! Also, the AD ratio is insanely low for a champion relying on his Q and his basic attacks to deal damages since his E is supposed to be an execute. Then, the Smoke from his Q spell is visible to both teams through the fog of war, so the enemies run away instantly after seeing it so there isn't any surprise when you gank unlike Twitch or Evelynn on early game.

What is actually correct?

The cooldown may look longer but I believe it is actually correct since we now buy Duskblade, Trinity Force / Youmuu's on Shaco and it gives him cooldown reduction compared to the Infinity Edge & Statikk build he used to go, even though I believe it would be nice to reduce it of 0.5s.

  • New W : Now instantly die to turret shots, and lose a minimum of 1/3rd of their health from champion basic attacks and not stackable anymore.

What is the problem?

Boxes are helpful only when you clear the jungle and sometimes when you gank, they become useless in late because they die too fast and often get killed on accident by AoE spells.

  • Old E : Passive: While Two-Shiv Poison is not on cooldown, Shaco's basic attacks poison his targets, slowing them for 2 seconds (10/ 15 /20 / 25 / 30%) and reducing the attack speed of minions and monsters (20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30%). Active: Shaco throws a dagger at the target enemy, dealing (50 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 210) (+ 100% AP) (+ 100% bonus AD) magic damage and slowing them for 3 seconds.

  • New E: Passive: Shaco's basic attacks slow enemies for 2 seconds (20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30%) while Two-Shiv Poison is off cooldown. Active: Shaco throws a dagger at the target enemy, slowing them for 3 seconds and dealing (55 / 80 / 105 / 130 / 155) (+ 60 / 75 / 90 / 105 / 120% bonus AD) (+ 75% AP) physical damage, increased by 0% − 50% (based on target's missing health).

What is the problem?

Just looking at the numbers we can see it is a nerf and also because of bonus AD damages scaling from 60 to 120% bonus AD depending on how much points we have in it, and since we have to put 3 points in the Q spell to make ganks possible it makes it an even harder nerf. Then, damages became AD making it not feel like an execute as it should be. Also, the max damage is reached when the enemy has 100% missing health, why would you do that?

  • New R : Clone explosion base damage reduced to 200 / 300 / 400 from 300 / 450 / 600 and now creates a nest of Jack-in-the-Boxes upon death. These boxes activate together, and receive damage together.

What is the problem?

Same as W, most of the time useless because they die too fast and often get killed on accident by AoE spells

Shaco also suffered from direct and indirect nerfs, here are the indirect ones without any compensation:

  • Duskblade nerf
  • Ignite nerf
  • Dark Harvest nerf
  • Electrocute nerf

But also the jungle XP nerf, supposed to make junglers gank less, but it did exactly the opposite (10/10 balance team), we just need to look at the Top 3 actual junglers: Rek'Sai, Lee Sin, Jarvan IV. Why a so stupid nerf to the jungle and not a nerf to the champions being too strong as you did with Camille?

Now I will try to help on fixing Shaco because I and for sure, people who like Shaco don't want a rework, here is what could help him:

Q: Make invisibility longer on first levels and nerf it on late (or make it a fixed duration like before) and buff base damages / AD ratio

Why? Because we saw Shaco lacks of damages, especially on his Q and can't do anything early game.

W: Increase boxes health depending on level points on the spell.

Why? So they can have a purpose in the late game.

E: Make a fixed AD ratio, change or remove the increased damages on missing health (you can make the passive work with it), and turn the damages back to AP.

Why? Because it lacks damages and making it AP will make it feel more like an execute, it will benefits AD and AP Shaco (if there are any alive).

R: Same as W, increase boxes health depending on level points on the spell.

Why? So they can have a purpose in the late game.

Q&A:

Q: Shaco is actually good why would we make him better? Look at his winrate! A: Winrate doesn't mean everything, there is only a small amount of people (one tricks) who can play him, even pros can't: click here.

Q: Shaco is cancerous why would we make him good? A: Zoe.

Q: Shaco has no counterplay why would we make him good? A: Oracle Lens, Cloth Armor, Stopwatch, Chain Vest, Bramble Vest, Warden's Mail, Ninja Tabi, Seeker's Armguard, Knight's Vow, Locket of the Iron Solari, Zeke's Convergence, Gargoyle Stoneplate, Phantom Dancer, Ohmwrecker, Righteous Glory, Iceborn Gauntlet, Frozen Heart, Zz'Rot Portal, Sunfire Cape, Guardian Angel, Thornmail, Randuin's Omen, Zhonya's Hourglass, Dead Man's Plate, Dashes, Shields, Heals, Stuns, Well Placed Trinkets and Control Wards, Players with Eyes to see the Smoke, Players with Brains.

Thanks for reading, I hope I will get an answer, sorry if I did any mistakes, ask me if you didn't understand something, english isn't my native langage.

— Kobune.

PS: I actually forgot to choose where to post after finishing to write and check if everything was alright so if a moderator could send this to the right place (and answer this post if possible) it would be nice :)

78 Comments

B0ak4/8/2019, 1:22:38 AM34 votes

Yes to everything. Finally someone gets it.

Dasdi964/8/2019, 1:51:05 AM12 votes

Shaco is a champion that doesn't even play league of legends. Shaco players are so focused on trying to outplay the enemy that they forget how to win the game, and that he is a completely selfish champion. Zero waveclear, zero lockdown, zero contribution when behind, zero peel, only damage and mobility.

HA I am Shaco HA4/8/2019, 8:42:49 AM10 votes

Hopefully Riot will make a change to him when Shaco gets his new skin, they normally buff champions that get new skins and if they don't do it with Shaco then they are being really stupid and truly do hate Shaco. Although they probably will do something about Shaco to make players want to get the new skin and play him to rake in the money.

ChickenWrap4/8/2019, 5:37:37 PM9 votes

You seem like someone who plays a lot of Shaco. +1 for having opinions I've been saying for literally years

Honestly, I'm shocked that you didn't get downvoted to oblivion for talking about it.

Dessem4/8/2019, 3:51:58 PM8 votes

Isn't a 52% winrate pretty good? He seems to be doing well. My personal experience with Shaco has also been that he's pretty strong.

You say winrate isn't everything, but it does suggest he's in a good spot. When Lissandra was played exclusively by mains, her winrate was lower than Shaco's, but people considered her balanced.

D4noxhur4/8/2019, 5:34:11 PM6 votes

Kobune, U're right. Give Shaco some love..

EPT Azael4/8/2019, 4:32:02 PM5 votes

So true.. He's in a really bad Shape right now. Tiamat and Duskblade are the reason he's still doing okay.

Base Dmg and Scaling are too Bad.

I'd be already happy if Jack would be like Zyra Plants. Give EM 3 hits and they die. You can't really use them well late since they die randomly by some AoE..

Lokilover4/8/2019, 3:19:56 PM4 votes

The passive is a nerf ? Yeah it's a 3 sec CD but it looks like it does way more dmg on that first hit, and how many hits can you actually get on a champ from behind before they turn on you anyway?

FreezerFlare4/9/2019, 2:00:32 PM4 votes

I miss rushing Hydra. I miss my passive amplifying the damage of my Boxes for Clear and my E for assassinating. I miss Q being a 1 point wonder. I miss E doing damage and being magic damage instead of being a garbage execute made even weaker by having to rank Q 3 times first. I miss being able to build whatever I needed (Maw, Crit, Lethality, Bulky/Bruiser Shaco). I miss having an early game. I miss shaco before riot tried to push the "Hybrid" part of his kit only to make all versions of him worse.

Hailren4/8/2019, 7:50:25 PM3 votes

I main Shaco he is my favorite champ and I do feel that Shaco is not what he use to be.

p a t r i o t4/8/2019, 6:38:59 PM3 votes

I really miss being the early game terror. The rework made him only able to 1 shot people from stealth with late game items, everyones least favorite part about him.

Legomaniac54/8/2019, 6:45:34 PM3 votes

I don’t typically post in the forms or comment on them for that matter, but as someone who used to play a lot of shaco last season his steady decline has lead to me looking for new junglers or relying on ones i played before him. Its a horrible feeling trying to play a good game of shaco it feels like the scales are so out of favor, if anyone on your team starts giving up more than 2 kills, the game is just over. They yell at you cause your not doing as much but theres not much you can do and so many people think that oh your shaco ignite smite your ganking early, no you need ignite just to even have a chance at getting the kill. Its really a toxic enviorment, and then with the begining of the leash dependant start to try and get a headstart and be somewhat relevant, while your allies mock you and say your playing shaco you dont need a leash, or just hit it twice and walk to lane. Its made me a much more toxic player seeing the no leash start realizing its another one of those games and basicly losing the motivation i had going into the game, when i see my allies don’t even want to try and help me as a jungler part of your job is to help the laners yet your playing shaco, you dont need help.

When i saw the inital nerfs to duskblade and no compensation for shaco but ren and zed both got comped it felt awful visually seeing how you don’t even care about your already item dependent champions in the same boat with the ones you buffed, then again with the nerfs to darkharvest, with darkharvest even if your team failed you, even if you were behind you had a way to win you had to farm and focus on it taking every camp, and verticle jungling at even the slightest vision of them on the map. You had a chance still then, but riot nerfed that too.

If shaco gets ahead early he can dominate the game, theres no question in my mind but the skill and luck, yes luck for a shaco player to get to that point is outrageously overtuned. You can play your heart out and make amazing plays and most of the time you’ll still lose, when other champs don’t need half the items you do to be relevant.

All you employees at riot especially the ones who don’t play shaco, play a few games, see for yourself the skill ceiling that you have set for us to have any chance at wining this game, try using something other than a tiamat rush let us know how that goes for you. Shaco’s an assasin, but yet hes playing more like a bruiser these days, hell my winrate has actually been higher playing him almost like a tank, and just kiting enemies, is this truely how you imagined an assasin to play, does it feel good playing with his kit and his current builds?

There’s a lot that has already been said here so i’ll end it with this right now with how shaco is currently do you honestly think that anyone is going to pick him up for the first time, hell i wouldn’t even recommend any of my friends to play him right now, why would anyone.

Workshop Shaco4/9/2019, 6:10:56 PM2 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/pp6NPfuV-workshop-shacos-shaco-workshop-shaco-changes-discussionproposal

I just kinda went and made this because this thread inspired me.

Turtqies4/8/2019, 5:24:20 PM2 votes

I believe Shaco is getting a full VGU after Mordekaiser. He is in massive need of changes, I agree and it seems like Riot agrees too. Also, after Shaco is Skarner so look forward to that buddy.

Workshop Shaco4/9/2019, 3:58:32 AM2 votes

In my opinion, Shaco's rework completely changed the champion from what he was and still failed at balancing him. Ever since his rework I stopped playing him nearly as much, but this season I gave it another go.

As it turns out, jungle Shaco went from being incredibly diverse to somewhat linear. He has the same clear almost every game, doesn't duel other champions very well early on, doesn't clear super nicely until tiamat, doesn't gank very well until 2-3 points in stealth.

I straight up just started playing him as a support. I'd have a 75% winrate on him if I never played Shaco jungle in ranked this season. Additionally, check the champion's op.gg stats. 20% support play rate and it's seemingly his stronger role now.

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Workshop+shaco

Edit(s): As far as I'm concerned, pre-rework Shaco had the most build diversity out of any champion. While he can still take a variety of keystones and go either AP or AD, there will always be the cookie-cutter dusk/trinity/ghostblade that makes you feel inferior. It's boring. His early game is boring. His late game is boring. You only do one thing, there's no more duelist Shaco or splitpush Shaco or Skirmisher Shaco.

Right now, that cookie-cutter build isn't even that great too. It's expensive and it's been nerfed a fair bit. I'd rather just have (or be) Rengar.

The only innovation I've seen is from my friend Revive, which I helped make a glacial augment tank build with. He's basically playing Shaco support in the jungle. I'd link his op.gg but I'm lazy and on mobile (same reason why I keep editing this same post).

He needs to be looked at if Riot still wants AD Shaco jungle to be his intended position.

Skiks04/9/2019, 4:27:21 AM2 votes

I couldn't say it better. The assassin rework was bullshit as it felt more of a test in the long run. Why? BECAUSE THEY STARTED REVERSING THE CHAMPIONS THAT GOT REWORKED. What was the point of changing Rengar's q if it's still the same as before. Same with LeBlanc. Why even bother making these reworks if you're going to just revert them. My only hope now is that they will also revert Shaco to his old, true self.

GrãñðmãstêrShãçø4/9/2019, 4:08:30 PM2 votes

Yeah he really needs buffs tbh, compared to khazix that just uses one q to deal NOT AN EXAGGERATION 1000 DMG Shaco has to do the entire combo for that so yeah, nerf other champions and items or revert shaco to his previous self

Cheers

Mrfantastic7504/9/2019, 4:45:53 PM2 votes

Agreed I play a bit of shaco and I end up going max crit or ap cause lethality isn't the best atm

CleanKatarina4/8/2019, 3:55:42 PM1 votes

{quoted}

Hi there, I'm Kobune.

Do you know this champion Shaco ?

This champion is called Shaco and used to be an assassin. Yes, I said "used to be".

Why? Because right now he doesn't feel like he is an actual assassin. He actually feels like... He is nothing.

The reason behind this is simple: an unjustified "rework" on the assassin patch, direct and indirect nerfs without compensations.

Shaco before that "rework" was a meta-breaker champion, he always was good without being overpowered.

Now I will explain why I've wrote "rework" in quotes.

That "rework" consisted in a global nerf of Shaco.

Since my post concerns the actual Shaco we will compare Shaco's Abilities before the "rework" to Shaco's Actual Abilities:

  • ** Old Passive** : Shaco deals 20% bonus damage when striking an enemy from behind with his basic attacks or Two-Shiv Poison.

  • New Passive : Basic attacking an enemy from behind critically strikes for 30% (+ Infinity Edge 25%) (+ 25% AD) (+ 40% AP) Attack damage bonus physical damage, increased to 100% (+ Infinity Edge 25%) (+ 25% AD) (+ 40% AP) against monsters. Cooldown: 3 seconds per unit.

What is the problem?

It looks like a buff at first, but it actually is a nerf because you can't make use of the New Passive as often as the old one because it has a 3 seconds cooldown per unit.

  • Old Q : Shaco instantly blinks to the target location and stealths for up to 3.5 seconds, also causing his next basic attack within 6 seconds to critically strike for bonus critical damage (140 / 160 / 180 / 200 / 220%). Cooldown: 14 seconds

  • New Q : After a 0.125s delay, Shaco blinks to the target location, temporarily becoming invisible for (1.5 / 2.25 / 3 / 3.75 / 4.5s). After exiting invisibility, his next basic attack within 0.25 seconds deals (10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50) (+40% AD) (+30% AP) bonus physical damage and reduces Deceive's Cooldown reduction icon cooldown by 2.5 seconds. Cooldown: 16 / 15.5 / 15 / 14.5 / 14s

What is the problem?

Actually there are a lot of problems. First it is a too heavy nerf to Shaco's early game because of the short invisibility duration but also because of the base damages of the spell "(10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50)" it is really a joke, it is so low it feels like it doesn't even count because of the base armor of the champions, and because of the really short invisibility duration early, you can't even have the time to reach the enemy and apply them! Also, the AD ratio is insanely low for a champion relying on his Q and his basic attacks to deal damages since his E is supposed to be an execute. Then, the Smoke from his Q spell is visible to both teams through the fog of war, so the enemies run away instantly after seeing it so there isn't any surprise when you gank unlike Twitch or Evelynn on early game.

What is actually correct?

The cooldown may look longer but I believe it is actually correct since we now buy Duskblade, Trinity Force / Youmuu's on Shaco and it gives him cooldown reduction compared to the Infinity Edge & Statikk build he used to go, even though I believe it would be nice to reduce it of 0.5s.

  • New W : Now instantly die to turret shots, and lose a minimum of 1/3rd of their health from champion basic attacks and not stackable anymore.

What is the problem?

Boxes are helpful only when you clear the jungle and sometimes when you gank, they become useless in late because they die too fast and often get killed on accident by AoE spells.

  • Old E : Passive: While Two-Shiv Poison is not on cooldown, Shaco's basic attacks poison his targets, slowing them for 2 seconds (10/ 15 /20 / 25 / 30%) and reducing the attack speed of minions and monsters (20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30%). Active: Shaco throws a dagger at the target enemy, dealing (50 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 210) (+ 100% AP) (+ 100% bonus AD) magic damage and slowing them for 3 seconds.

  • New E: Passive: Shaco's basic attacks slow enemies for 2 seconds (20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30%) while Two-Shiv Poison is off cooldown. Active: Shaco throws a dagger at the target enemy, slowing them for 3 seconds and dealing (55 / 80 / 105 / 130 / 155) (+ 60 / 75 / 90 / 105 / 120% bonus AD) (+ 75% AP) physical damage, increased by 0% − 50% (based on target's missing health).

What is the problem?

Just looking at the numbers we can see it is a nerf and also because of bonus AD damages scaling from 60 to 120% bonus AD depending on how much points we have in it, and since we have to put 3 points in the Q spell to make ganks possible it makes it an even harder nerf. Then, damages became AD making it not feel like an execute as it should be. Also, the max damage is reached when the enemy has 100% missing health, why would you do that?

  • New R : Clone explosion base damage reduced to 200 / 300 / 400 from 300 / 450 / 600 and now creates a nest of Jack-in-the-Boxes upon death. These boxes activate together, and receive damage together.

What is the problem?

Same as W, most of the time useless because they die too fast and often get killed on accident by AoE spells

Shaco also suffered from direct and indirect nerfs, here are the indirect ones without any compensation:

  • Duskblade nerf
  • Ignite nerf
  • Dark Harvest nerf
  • Electrocute nerf

But also the jungle XP nerf, supposed to make junglers gank less, but it did exactly the opposite (10/10 balance team), we just need to look at the Top 3 actual junglers: Rek'Sai, Lee Sin, Jarvan IV. Why a so stupid nerf to the jungle and not a nerf to the champions being too strong as you did with Camille?

Now I will try to help on fixing Shaco because I and for sure, people who like Shaco don't want a rework, here is what could help him:

Q: Make invisibility longer on first levels and nerf it on late (or make it a fixed duration like before) and buff base damages / AD ratio

Why? Because we saw Shaco lacks of damages, especially on his Q and can't do anything early game.

W: Increase boxes health depending on level points on the spell.

Why? So they can have a purpose in the late game.

E: Make a fixed AD ratio, change or remove the increased damages on missing health (you can make the passive work with it), and turn the damages back to AP.

Why? Because it lacks damages and making it AP will make it feel more like an execute, it will benefits AD and AP Shaco (if there are any alive).

R: Same as W, increase boxes health depending on level points on the spell.

Why? So they can have a purpose in the late game.

Q&A:

Q: Shaco is actually good why would we make him better? Look at his winrate! A: Winrate doesn't mean everything, there is only a small amount of people (one tricks) who can play him, even pros can't: click here.

Q: Shaco is cancerous why would we make him good? A: Zoe.

Q: Shaco has no counterplay why would we make him good? A: Oracle Lens, Cloth Armor, Stopwatch, Chain Vest, Bramble Vest, Warden's Mail, Ninja Tabi, Seeker's Armguard, Knight's Vow, Locket of the Iron Solari, Zeke's Convergence, Gargoyle Stoneplate, Phantom Dancer, Ohmwrecker, Righteous Glory, Iceborn Gauntlet, Frozen Heart, Zz'Rot Portal, Sunfire Cape, Guardian Angel, Thornmail, Randuin's Omen, Zhonya's Hourglass, Dead Man's Plate, Dashes, Shields, Heals, Stuns, Well Placed Trinkets and Control Wards, Players with Eyes to see the Smoke, Players with Brains.

Thanks for reading, I hope I will get an answer, sorry if I did any mistakes, ask me if you didn't understand something, english isn't my native langage.

— Kobune.

PS: I actually forgot to choose where to post after finishing to write and check if everything was alright so if a moderator could send this to the right place (and answer this post if possible) it would be nice :)

Acctualy im katarina main rn i was irelia when she got reworked but the 1st main of my 3 mains was shaco i wtill play him but hes not anymore fun hes not actual champion i play j4 and rengar mostly rengar when i play jngl cuz hes way funier and better as a champ he got cc dmg he could be played as tank and have dmg he can go letality and 1shot and stay alive and he can go ap.Shaco cant go tank cuz 0dmg ap still 0 dmg cuz boxes dies so fast and red trunked counters them shaco is only vayable is go letality whitch is rly counterbale too with armor and red trinket so i think shaco need to be reverted or get some huge buffs

TastyWhaleMeat4/8/2019, 6:14:48 PM1 votes

Shaco currently sitting at 51.84% winrate in the jungle (7th best), at a decent play rate of 2.39% (24th of 41). These numbers according to op.gg.

Not seeing where the issue is here......

He feels fine to me, and statistically hes performing well above average.

JohnnyNeverSins4/8/2019, 5:56:43 PM1 votes

Oh so now he is somewhat balanced and doesn't insta kill you (he does if you're good in the game)

Neeeeext

Saevum4/8/2019, 8:04:57 AM1 votes

The last nerf that i remember to shaco was his E nerf. Not sure if the champ is total trash or about to be.

Muda Muda Mudá4/8/2019, 4:45:11 PM1 votes

Shaco had a lot of power moved from his early game to his late game. Just calling everything a Nerf because it makes his early worse, and not mentioning how strong he is later seems like too much of an oversimplification.

As someone else noted, early game junglers are the most popular right now, and both Lee sin and rek'sai counter shaco, and the champion still has a 52% winrate? Seems like the real story here is shaco is insanely OVERPOWERED, and if he isn't changed, when the meta slows down he'll become some 60%+ winrate monster.