So Clash is supposedly made to mirror LCS for your average player. But in the LCS pro teams have alternates in emergency cases. I have a team member who can't play tomorrow. And from what I can tell, we are now SOL for every Sunday. That's half of the clash games for the entire duration of the multi-week event. Seems kinda BS to me, but I would like your thoughts on this... Is not having alternates legitimate for any feasible reason?
rujitra3 votesAFAIK they made a change after the very first Clash to make them "one day cups". You don't get any increased prizes for playing more than one day - you simply get a second chance.
Yep. Just confirmed that each tournament bracket is its own thing - changing teams between days is completely allowed and doing so does not hurt you in any way. As such, all you have to do is ensure that your team is available for 3 or so continuous hours (for 3 or so games in a bracket) and that's that. There really isn't any need for alternates.
Add3PT4 votesAFAIK they made a change after the very first Clash to make them "one day cups". You don't get any increased prizes for playing more than one day - you simply get a second chance.
Yep. Just confirmed that each tournament bracket is its own thing - changing teams between days is completely allowed and doing so does not hurt you in any way. As such, all you have to do is ensure that your team is available for 3 or so continuous hours (for 3 or so games in a bracket) and that's that. There really isn't any need for alternates.
Oh wow awesome, tysm dude. Couldn't find a lot of info on clash to be honest :/
rujitra2 votesOh wow awesome, tysm dude. Couldn't find a lot of info on clash to be honest :/
Yeah they realized that trying to hold multiple day tournaments was a little too professional for 99% of players.
Pierce The Veal3 votesYeah they realized that trying to hold multiple day tournaments was a little too professional for 99% of players.
Especially because it’s hard to plan life around a game tournament. Yesterday my team couldn’t get together because 2-3 of us had last minute issues come up. I, on the other hand, am on call so if anything comes up I could have to ditch the tournament if it came down to it.
The issue is be it students, blue collars, white collars, healthcare professionals, IT employees, or others, many people simply can’t guarantee that they’ll be free at a specific time every weekend. If it was like 5v5 ranked of old, then perhaps it would be doable but the current clash is truthfully too restrictive for most players unless every day is a one off thing.
rujitra1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2zAttQz7,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-08T15:39:20.984+0000)
Especially because it’s hard to plan life around a game tournament. Yesterday my team couldn’t get together because 2-3 of us had last minute issues come up. I, on the other hand, am on call so if anything comes up I could have to ditch the tournament if it came down to it.
The issue is be it students, blue collars, white collars, healthcare professionals, IT employees, or others, many people simply can’t guarantee that they’ll be free at a specific time every weekend. If it was like 5v5 ranked of old, then perhaps it would be doable but the current clash is truthfully too restrictive for most players unless every day is a one off thing.
??? The current clash every day is it’s own thing. And Clash isn’t designed to be something everyone participates every day in.
I’m at a conference right now and barely was able to participate yesterday because it was the first day so not much will be going on. I’ll be lucky if I’m able to participate the rest of this cup.
Pierce The Veal2 votes??? The current clash every day is it’s own thing. And Clash isn’t designed to be something everyone participates every day in.
I’m at a conference right now and barely was able to participate yesterday because it was the first day so not much will be going on. I’ll be lucky if I’m able to participate the rest of this cup.
I know. However, the plans for clash originally were to make it something you need to participate in every time with no substitutions. If you wanted to keep going but one of your teammates was missing the next week, your options were to give up or kick your teammate and replace him, after which he would lose all the rewards he had built up. And as it stands that clash design is what Riot will be going with after this clash global BETA. These rules are specific to this beta and will not be instated for the official launch, hence all the more reason OP’s request is important.
rujitra1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2zAttQz7,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-08T16:28:26.715+0000)
I know. However, the plans for clash originally were to make it something you need to participate in every time with no substitutions. If you wanted to keep going but one of your teammates was missing the next week, your options were to give up or kick your teammate and replace him, after which he would lose all the rewards he had built up.
I am 90% certain that the original clash allowed you to substitute up to 2 players (<50% of the team) as long as they were the same tier as the player being substituted. The substitutes player would not get any future rewards but they’d keep what they already got - which makes sense.
Pierce The Veal1 votesI am 90% certain that the original clash allowed you to substitute up to 2 players (<50% of the team) as long as they were the same tier as the player being substituted. The substitutes player would not get any future rewards but they’d keep what they already got - which makes sense.
You could not “substitute” them. You had to replace them. And unfortunately from what I recall you actually DID lose your rewards.
rujitra1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2zAttQz7,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-08T17:18:47.775+0000)
You could not “substitute” them. You had to replace them. And unfortunately from what I recall you actually DID lose your rewards.
Tomato tomato. Replacing them for a day is the same as substituting them in. The tournaments were originally only two days - so a replacement was equivalent to a substitution. And in fact, both of those words can be used to mean the same thing.
Riot wanted to avoid (and still does) teams attempting to “game” the tournament by substituting out people having “bad days” or who aren’t committing to the entire tournament. That’s part of a tournament setting. Nobody is forced to participate in Clash if they are unwilling to commit to it.
Pierce The Veal2 votesTomato tomato. Replacing them for a day is the same as substituting them in. The tournaments were originally only two days - so a replacement was equivalent to a substitution. And in fact, both of those words can be used to mean the same thing.
Riot wanted to avoid (and still does) teams attempting to “game” the tournament by substituting out people having “bad days” or who aren’t committing to the entire tournament. That’s part of a tournament setting. Nobody is forced to participate in Clash if they are unwilling to commit to it.
So it sounds like you’re just not a fan of people who aren’t able to commit to clash. It may seem to you that the majority of people do not have things going on in their life that they cannot control, but some people have such occurrences on the regular (especially in IT and healthcare). I, for example, am not unwilling to commit to Clash, but sometimes you simply cannot avoid a call on the weekend.
On another note, “replace” and “substitute” can be alternated by a stretch of their definitions. Aside from that being mere semantics, they are generally not used in the same manner. If someone has been “replaced” they tend to be gone for good, with someone to take their place for good. If someone has been “substituted,” often that is used in a temporary manner.
You’re right that it is technically the same thing in a 2 day or less tournament, however at the end of the day as it stands you have to be kicked, which isn’t exactly the most appealing thing for people to do or have happen to them. Even if rationally it is the same thing, in practice it feels like a disloyal thing for both sides.
rujitra2 votes[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2zAttQz7,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-08T17:46:06.424+0000)
So it sounds like you’re just not a fan of people who aren’t able to commit to clash. It may seem to you that the majority of people do not have things going on in their life that they cannot control, but some people have such occurrences on the regular (especially in IT and healthcare). I, for example, am not unwilling to commit to Clash, but sometimes you simply cannot avoid a call on the weekend.
On another note, “replace” and “substitute” can be alternated by a stretch of their definitions. Aside from that being mere semantics, they are generally not used in the same manner. If someone has been “replaced” they tend to be gone for good, with someone to take their place for good. If someone has been “substituted,” often that is used in a temporary manner.
You’re right that it is technically the same thing in a 2 day or less tournament, however at the end of the day as it stands you have to be kicked, which isn’t exactly the most appealing thing for people to do or have happen to them. Even if rationally it is the same thing, in practice it feels like a disloyal thing for both sides.
I’m not a fan of people who assume they should be able to do everything and that everything should be made specially for them.
Clash is designed for people who want to play in a committed tournament. If that’s not you, then Clash isn’t for you. Substitutions where you keep your prizes are not part of many amateur tournaments. There is no reason for them, because if you’re committed you won’t need to substitute. As such, replacement where the replacement gets the prizes is more than acceptable.
Pierce The Veal3 votesI’m not a fan of people who assume they should be able to do everything and that everything should be made specially for them.
Clash is designed for people who want to play in a committed tournament. If that’s not you, then Clash isn’t for you. Substitutions where you keep your prizes are not part of many amateur tournaments. There is no reason for them, because if you’re committed you won’t need to substitute. As such, replacement where the replacement gets the prizes is more than acceptable.
At the end of the day that just means you want exclusivity. Unfortunately for you, this is a business you’re dealing with, not the olympics, and the players are people, customers, with real lives. What will happen is Riot will do whatever brings them the most money. Unfortunately for you, that tends to be what keeps the most customers happiest.
You keep using phrases like “want” and “commit” but you don’t seem to want to realize or accept that a lot of people may want to play, they may even commit to playing, but the end result may be that they cannot keep the commitment. When there needs to be 5 people coordinating to make this happen, the probability of such a person being on a team increases significantly. This doesn’t just make that one person feel bad, it makes their whole team feel bad. It doesn’t just make it inconvenient for that one person, it makes it inconvenient for the whole team.
You don’t want to accept it, but other people may want something but have other serious real life issues come up. I know it’s hard to understand that I could be called into the hospital without prior notice. Or that one of my friend’s might have an issue come up at the fab. That’s not “[lack of commitment],” and that’s not a lack of desire to participate in the whole of clash. That’s a need and our society runs on needs, without them, you wouldn’t be able to play out your wants.
TL;DR: your desire for exclusivity doesn’t exceed other peoples’ desire to participate/desire for ease of access. People have real life responsibilities that could even mean lives on the line, trying to deny them their own personal lives/fun because you think they didn’t “want to commit,” is a real show of character. Trying to deny other people convenience that would not serve to harm you in any way just because you want exclusivity could only be said to be selfish for lack of a better, more intense synonym.
rujitra1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2zAttQz7,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-08T18:44:48.891+0000)
At the end of the day that just means you want exclusivity. Unfortunately for you, this is a business you’re dealing with, not the olympics, and the players are people, customers, with real lives. What will happen is Riot will do whatever brings them the most money. Unfortunately for you, that tends to be what keeps the most customers happiest.
You keep using phrases like “want” and “commit” but you don’t seem to want to realize or accept that a lot of people may want to play, they may even commit to playing, but the end result may be that they cannot keep the commitment. When there needs to be 5 people coordinating to make this happen, the probability of such a person being on a team increases significantly. This doesn’t just make that one person feel bad, it makes their whole team feel bad. It doesn’t just make it inconvenient for that one person, it makes it inconvenient for the whole team.
You don’t want to accept it, but other people may want something but have other serious real life issues come up. I know it’s hard to understand that I could be called into the hospital without prior notice. Or that one of my friend’s might have an issue come up at the fab. That’s not “[lack of commitment],” and that’s not a lack of desire to participate in the whole of clash. That’s a need and our society runs on needs, without them, you wouldn’t be able to play out your wants.
TL;DR: your desire for exclusivity doesn’t exceed other peoples’ desire to participate/desire for ease of access. People have real life responsibilities that could even mean lives on the line, trying to deny them their own personal lives/fun because you think they didn’t “want to commit,” is a real show of character. Trying to deny other people convenience that would not serve to harm you in any way just because you want exclusivity could only be said to be selfish for lack of a better, more intense synonym.
Not every product a business offers will be tailored to every one of their customers. As an example - airlines offer first class, business class, premium economy, "extra legroom economy", regular economy, basic economy... do you really think they're trying to get every customer with every single product? No. That's why they offer multiple products, to appeal to multiple customer bases.
There are many players who prefer to play in a competitive manner - they may only play League to play in third party run tournaments with full teams of 5. They don't want blind matching. They don't want the "for fun" modes of ranked/normal games. They want a mode that is truly competitive - that every single person in the mode is there to win. That is a very sizable population - and there have been many posts over the years of people who leave the game simply because there isn't a mode such as Clash.
You are not the customer Riot is attempting to get with Clash. Period. You need to accept that in life there will be products that simply are not designed for you. Not every product is going to be designed for you. If Riot makes it more appealing to you by making substitutions in/out every game a possibility, then Riot is making it less appealing to those who want a true "competitive tournament" game mode.
Just because you want this does not mean that Riot is going to give it to you at the expense of not giving these other players what they want. In fact, it appears that you are the one who desires exclusivity - you desire that everything is exclusively crafted to be as appealing as possible to you - regardless of what others care about/want.
Add3PT1 votesNot every product a business offers will be tailored to every one of their customers. As an example - airlines offer first class, business class, premium economy, "extra legroom economy", regular economy, basic economy... do you really think they're trying to get every customer with every single product? No. That's why they offer multiple products, to appeal to multiple customer bases.
There are many players who prefer to play in a competitive manner - they may only play League to play in third party run tournaments with full teams of 5. They don't want blind matching. They don't want the "for fun" modes of ranked/normal games. They want a mode that is truly competitive - that every single person in the mode is there to win. That is a very sizable population - and there have been many posts over the years of people who leave the game simply because there isn't a mode such as Clash.
You are not the customer Riot is attempting to get with Clash. Period. You need to accept that in life there will be products that simply are not designed for you. Not every product is going to be designed for you. If Riot makes it more appealing to you by making substitutions in/out every game a possibility, then Riot is making it less appealing to those who want a true "competitive tournament" game mode.
Just because you want this does not mean that Riot is going to give it to you at the expense of not giving these other players what they want. In fact, it appears that you are the one who desires exclusivity - you desire that everything is exclusively crafted to be as appealing as possible to you - regardless of what others care about/want.
I don't see how not allowing subs is unappealing for anybody? What happens when one of your team members breaks his wrist wacking it (let's be honest, more likely to happen that way in the LoL playerbase) 30 minutes before your tourney starts and you have to find a sub. You'd be upset if your team was on a high winning streak. If you claim you wouldn't want subs in that situation then you are probably just arguing for argument's sake...
Add3PT2 votes[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2zAttQz7,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-08T16:28:26.715+0000)
I know. However, the plans for clash originally were to make it something you need to participate in every time with no substitutions. If you wanted to keep going but one of your teammates was missing the next week, your options were to give up or kick your teammate and replace him, after which he would lose all the rewards he had built up. And as it stands that clash design is what Riot will be going with after this clash global BETA. These rules are specific to this beta and will not be instated for the official launch, hence all the more reason OP’s request is important.
So this one of style is going to be removed after beta? I feel like the beta should reflect the real deal so that they might see how big of an issue it is ;-;
Pierce The Veal1 votesSo this one of style is going to be removed after beta? I feel like the beta should reflect the real deal so that they might see how big of an issue it is ;-;
Exactly :/ And yes, after the beta it will not be one off.
Shiroe Okazaki2 votesi think each team should have up to like 7 or 8 available players in it. Just for subbs. like yea you shouldn't need more than 1 but it would be nice to have a near real league team like that.
Add3PT1 votesAt the end of the day, LCS is where the committed player's tournaments are. There are also high level pro junior tourneys out there. I'm sure there are also third party tournament brackets (I know there used to be). The fact of the matter is that tier IV players (iron-gold) have absolutely no incentive or reason to be so committed that they prioritize their gold 4 elo games over their family/work lives. If you are the type of person that wants that, I guarantee you're a needle in a hay stack.
rujitra1 votesAt the end of the day, LCS is where the committed player's tournaments are. There are also high level pro junior tourneys out there. I'm sure there are also third party tournament brackets (I know there used to be). The fact of the matter is that tier IV players (iron-gold) have absolutely no incentive or reason to be so committed that they prioritize their gold 4 elo games over their family/work lives. If you are the type of person that wants that, I guarantee you're a needle in a hay stack.
Two replies in one. First of all, no LCS is not where "committed player's tournaments" are. There are thousands of players that will never play in LCS but still want a tournament game mode. Furthermore, why does someone have to be that skilled to get into these committed tournaments? You can "guarantee" all you want but the abundance of "low rank tryhard tournaments" for lack of a better name proves your guarantee is completely wrong.
Well, for one, the chance someone breaks their wrist "wacking it" is next to none. And what happens? You substitute someone before the tournament starts. If one of your team members is so stupid to do something that causes them to have to drop out in the middle of the tournament, that's on them and the team leader for managing the team improperly. Clash is a one day tournament - team changes are allowed in between days, simply not in between games. If you can't have someone commit to 3 hours, don't let them on your Clash team that weekend - plain and simple. And if something does happen in the middle (very very rare anyway) that someone absolutely must leave, then a substitute is not likely to fix that problem.
Keep in mind this - substitutes would never be allowed to be on multiple teams - i.e. you would have to find someone that is willing to completely forego Clash for a day on the off chance you need them to substitute. The only people who would be doing that are those not committed enough in the first place anyway, so there's no sense in it being implemented.
Add3PT1 votesTwo replies in one. First of all, no LCS is not where "committed player's tournaments" are. There are thousands of players that will never play in LCS but still want a tournament game mode. Furthermore, why does someone have to be that skilled to get into these committed tournaments? You can "guarantee" all you want but the abundance of "low rank tryhard tournaments" for lack of a better name proves your guarantee is completely wrong.
Well, for one, the chance someone breaks their wrist "wacking it" is next to none. And what happens? You substitute someone before the tournament starts. If one of your team members is so stupid to do something that causes them to have to drop out in the middle of the tournament, that's on them and the team leader for managing the team improperly. Clash is a one day tournament - team changes are allowed in between days, simply not in between games. If you can't have someone commit to 3 hours, don't let them on your Clash team that weekend - plain and simple. And if something does happen in the middle (very very rare anyway) that someone absolutely must leave, then a substitute is not likely to fix that problem.
Keep in mind this - substitutes would never be allowed to be on multiple teams - i.e. you would have to find someone that is willing to completely forego Clash for a day on the off chance you need them to substitute. The only people who would be doing that are those not committed enough in the first place anyway, so there's no sense in it being implemented.
Well we aren't talking about that. Somebody above implied that clash outside of beta will not have swapable teamates outside of tournament days, and that was how it was intended. I also agree that you should not allow swaps in between games. A bit of miscommunication there it seems. But yes, LCS is ONE place that committed players tournaments form. If they can't make it into LCS there are other options. When I used to play in S4 and S5 there were tournaments for all skill level players and rito used to actually give them hundreds of thousands of RP in order to support those tourneys in the form of prize pools. As far as I know, they discontinued supporting those at the end of S5. That being said I'm almost positive there are junior pro and low level tournament options out there that are more restrictive on rosters.
Add3PT1 votesWhen I used to play in S4 and S5 there were tournaments for all skill level players and rito used to actually give them hundreds of thousands of RP in order to support those tourneys in the form of prize pools. As far as I know, they discontinued supporting those at the end of S5. That being said I'm almost positive there are junior pro and low level tournament options out there that are more restrictive on rosters.
The name of the organizer was Victorious Gaming (VG)
K6TheUnseen1 votesI believe u should be allowed to have a Sub for every role