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Can we talk about these Taliyah changes?

TheUrbanKitsune·5/18/2018, 12:02:16 AM·5 votes·3,233 views

BEFORE I GET INTO THIS I FEEL I NEED TO MAKE THIS CLEAR! - Taliyah has been a token pick for pro play despite receiving multiple nerfs, and I understand something needs to be done about this. She has insane lane priority and godly roam potential. Something needs to be done, but I personally think some of the things Riot is looking to change on her are NOT the way to go.

I'm not going to claim to be a Taliyah expert or anything, but she is BY FAR my favorite champion, and the one I have spent the most time playing. I love everything about Taliyah (in her current state) and some of the changes on PBE at the moment are very drastic and alarming. It's hard to tell exactly how these changes will impact her until I actually try them for myself, but here are some of my main concerns:

WAVECLEAR

  • [Removed] Threaded Volley no longer deals AOE damage.
  • [Changed Effect] Minions no longer take reduced damage from additional rocks.

To me it looks like Taliyah's overall waveclear is going to be hurt pretty bad. The loss of the AOE on her Q is a major change, and one that I'm not particularly fond of. Taliyah has a kit built for roaming, and that is exactly what she aims to do, but without proper waveclear she risks losing too much for attempting to do so. With her high mana costs and the removal of her AOE I fear that champions she was previously was able to shove in may now be able to match or even beat her waveclear. This would have a big impact on her ability to roam, or even keep her trapped under turret in some situations. SHE NEEDS TO LOSE SOME LANE PRIORITY, but I don't agree at all with the choice to remove her AOE. Instead reducing Q damage to minions may be a better way to go, if anything. Her Q will feel AWFUL to use without AOE.

HARASS/LANING

  • Q cooldown lowered from 11/9/7/5/3 to 9/7.5/6/4.5/3 (reverted from previous nerfs)
  • Base HP increased from 502 to 532 (reverted from previous nerfs)
  • Worked ground cast mana refund increased from 50% to 100%
  • Seismic Shove (W) cooldown lowered from 16/15/14/12/11 to 12 at all ranks
  • Unraveled Earth (E) inital and explosion damage lowered from 70/90/110/130/150 to 50/75/100/125/150

The most interesting thing to me here is the 100% mana refund upon casting Q on Worked Ground. This will probably allow her to sustain in lane a bit better, and possibly allow more opportunities to harass/bully the enemy laner. It sounds amazing on paper, but enemies can still stand behind minions to avoid poke, and with the removal of the AOE part of her Q this will be even worse. Her poke might be a little stronger simply because she won't be required to expend as many resources if you position well and take advantage of Worked Ground Q's.

**ROAMING/ZONE CONTROL **

  • Base movespeed increased from 325 to 340
  • Rock Surfing (Passive) -Max movement speed increased from [20% - 40%] to [40%] -Combat lockout lowered from 5 seconds to 2 seconds
  • [Removed] Taliyah no longer gains movement speed on Worked Ground.
  • Weaver's Wall (R) wall duration changed lowered from 6/7/8 seconds to 5 seconds at all ranks

It looks like Riot wanted to shift movespeed from her Worked Ground to her passive, which brings up a couple problems on it's own:

  1. The movespeed gained from Worked Ground synergizes really well her Q, as it allows you the ability to move more freely while positioning to hit or follow an enemy with your Q. And Riot wants to shift this movespeed to her OUT OF COMBAT passive.
  2. Her roaming might be a little bit stronger early with these changes, but as previously discussed, without proper waveclear getting the opportunity to roam is going to be a lot harder in the first place.

Besides that, the nerf to her wall duration seems justified, if a bit harsh. She has so much pressure in controlling/zoning fights with her wall currently.

As I said before, I'm no expert, and this post is somewhat of a kneejerk reaction to seeing these changes. The main issue I have is with the removal of the AOE from her Q. Something for sure needs to be done about her oppressiveness in pro play, but for the love of god don't give her the Azir treatment. These changes seem like a bit much.

15 Comments

Boulderox5/18/2018, 12:16:35 AM3 votes

Damn... too slow :/ just made a thread, and don't want another duplicate...

But i agree with the first part, they seem to be hitting the waveclear, which means the buffs to her roam are useless because she is stuck in lane waveclearing instead of roaming... a backwards endeavor if you ask me.

The second part, I just think it is a silly change, taliyah is a ROAMING mage, giving her the power to stay in lane indefinitly with worked ground, makes little sense imo. Why roam if you have infinite single shot Q's, infinite poke etc.. It just is really odd.

midnight oil245/18/2018, 12:08:56 AM3 votes

I've been thinking of picking up Taliyah, tried her on rotation a few weeks back and found her pretty fun. Do you think she'll still be worth it after the nerfs? I know they're temporary, just wondering.

SupaDevilJuice5/18/2018, 12:27:34 AM1 votes

Seems like they have almost shifted her to a Utility Assassin with bad waveclear.

Takerial Akashi5/18/2018, 12:36:56 AM1 votes

You don't seem to be understanding the intent behind the changes.

A champion shouldn't be able to roam AND not lose minions at the same time. It's about opportunity cost.

If the wave clear on a champion is like Taliyah and impossible to combat, it means she easily gets the best of both worlds.

Instead, this creates more opportunity cost on her which is more proper. It also gives a mechanic for the enemy laner to actually do something meaningful. Whether they keep their own push up to pin Taliyah to the lane, use the opportunity to push and get turret damage. Or able to follow Taliyah without having to forfeit something she doesn't have to.

It also means that Taliyah just can't shove the lane and go poke her head somewhere else whenever she wants to now. The player actually has to carefully choose and create windows to work with or risk losing too much.

It also means they can actually put power into other abilities to give her more options in play.

Ifneth5/18/2018, 2:19:05 AM1 votes

Yikes.

—Losing the AOE on her Q creates a big problem because it would let enemies just stand next to minions and avoid all damage. It would also lead to feels-bad moments of missing last-hits because you don’t have the Q AOE for them. This is important because her waveclear combo is to E the whole wave, W the melee minions into the caster minions, and last-hit them with Q and its AOE. It’s straightforward, reliable, and keeps her tempo high. EDIT: I tried this on PBE and it actually felt fine. It took a little getting used to but was otherwise as good as before.

—Removing the movement speed from her worked ground is another big problem. That 10% movement speed lets her kite, stick, and stay on target. It also keeps the ability’s brief interruption of her running animation from making her lose targets at extreme range.

These changes would leave her feeling clunky.

Chembaron Yamada5/18/2018, 6:10:21 AM1 votes

I think it is the general idea to punish roaming champions harder for a failed roam. With that weaker waveclear, it means that Taliyah will lose more cs when she is roaming. Putting more pressure on her roam to succeed.

And if we are honest, her roaming is quite powerful thanks to her wall. But if she doesn't get any kills out of it, she will be behind in gold now because she missed cs. Especially if you look at pro play, it is necessary that failed roams get punished harder.

flibitydoo5/18/2018, 6:49:37 AM1 votes

at what point do these changes turn her into another bot lane mage support

Bishasaurus Flex5/18/2018, 12:09:58 AM1 votes

Before Riot makes any gameplay changes, they need to fix her eyebrows.