Support Itemization Question, Idea and Discussion

Blessed Death·1/2/2019, 11:41:36 PM·3 votes·11,262 views

Hi. I'm Blessed Death and I'm a support main. I've been around for a while and have seen the support meta/itemization shift around a lot. I have always had a question/idea about support itemization and income that I have been wanting to ask.

Allow me to preface it though. I know that support items are generally cheap because support income is generally lower then all of the other roles. I know that sometimes it can be difficult to create items for the support role because they can be(and generally are) abused by the other roles because of the fact that they tend to be cheap. So you end up with this conundrum of how to you create really good and interesting items without having them abused by the other roles? This is not to knock the current items in the game. I do feel that Riot has done a decent job with some of items, but at the same time, they have also had to hit some items because of the abuse. They've also had to hit some of the passive gold gain or gold generation mechanics because of abuse. But the question still remains, how do you create strong items for a role that generally has a lower income than the other roles and it from possibly getting abused?

Well, what if the item didn't need to be cheap in the first place?

Here's where my question comes into play. My question is, would it be a good idea to add a mechanic to the support starter items where they receive the same amount of gold that their ally receives when their ally kills a minion?

And here's my idea. The mechanic that I have in mind, could work one of two different ways. One way it could work is that if you are in lane and near an ally and the ally kills a minion, you receive the same amount of gold for the minion kill that they receive. The distance could be same distance used by item 3302 .

The other way that it could work, could be where you have to bind to an ally, like you would with Zeke's or Knight's Vow, instead of just being near an Ally. The bind effect would have a cool down.

The support champ would be able to roam and still receive income from their other lane mates but if using the 2nd iteration of the idea, would require that they have to play around a cool down to still receive gold if they move to another lane.

The starter items could still retain their quest and functions so that they can evolve into ward vending machines up on completion. They would instead use this mechanic to generate income instead of their current gold generating mechanics. The quest could have the gold requirement increased or have the determining factor changed. For instance, Relic shield could be changed to number of minions killed instead of 500 gold. Frostfang's quest could be adjusted to complete after you reach a certain amount of times you have damage an enemy champion. Nomad's Medallion could be changed to still collect coins, but reach a certain amount of coins instead. Coins could also be adjusted to still provide mana and possibly add a coin that provides hp.

With more income in the support role, new items could be created without having to worry about about tuning for a lower cost and you wouldn't have to worry about abuse from the other roles because the cost would be inline with they currently have to pay for regular items.

Another benefit of the increase in income is that more of the store opens up to the support role as they would not be have to purchase only low cost items. The support role would still be required to the pay the "Support Tax." Meaning that they will still need to keep 1 to 2 item slots designated to warding, but they will have the ability to build stronger items. This could mean an increase in different play styles and possibly an increase in champion diversity in the role.

That's the jist of it. Still working it out, but that's what I have as something that could help the support role and help with the creation of items for the role.

15 Comments

ModKnightsKemplar1/4/2019, 6:45:05 PM2 votes

I think I prefer the one that binds, and I can tell you why succinctly.

I don't want my gold to depend on my marksman's cs. In those unfortunate games where a diamond support gets paired with a silver marksman, I think that model limits the support too much. If I bind and get some percentage of the gold in that dead minion (as long as I'm in range), that's perfect. If the marksman has to leave lane, I can still farm without penalty.

Here's the bigger problem: any change to gold items needs to consider how it's going to affect funneling. We still do not have a comprehensive solution to that problem, and I think they should be addressed together. Doesn't mean I don't love your idea, cause I do, but it's a related issue that will need to be addressed.

IArs3lynI1/23/2019, 1:46:18 AM2 votes

For Supports i do say your right about itemizing is a bit on a boring side when the case comes to building stuff, cheep prices make them abuse-able for other laners and support tend to have a hard time catching up on EXP due to how far they got to be in the backline or how easily they can die, buying expensive items can be beneficial but it take a-lot of time even if they get all the assist in the world and destroying wards. I do have some ideas that can assist the support.

Heals and Shields: This is their bread and butter, they do need the stats from items, but their late game scaling power is through their healing and shielding power. Plenty of champions who has Shields has a decay power now, it is strong still, however it needs a buff, rather decaying most of it, it can decay less, saying shield at max power can stop decaying at 50%, this can make their kit strong in the later phase but still weak in the early phase like it should be. As for healing, they should increase healing but instead of raw increase healing, it can work in "Healing over Time" or HoT, where the value of healing can be greater late game. This can work to be less abuse-able for champions that has in-built shield and heals, healing example will be Xin Zhoa.

Item Quests: This was a great way to get some activity in play, however their just not enough quest for support, even though supports shouldn't have so many quest, there are ways to make quest WITHOUT making this a problem. therefore, any items that gives "heals and shield" should have a quest line involving with your vision, buff/heal/shielding, and assist (maybe). the reason i wanted to bring this up is because there a difference between a good and a bad support, and it should be clear and it shouldn't be so wild. here some ideas on the type of style of support that should be in the bot lane and how they should apply their roles.

  • Tank Support (Wardens and pure heavy tanks): Wardens provides a little of everything, healing, shielding and heavy CC. they should have quest that falls into getting assist, warding clearing, and vision set ups. having items like item 3109 item 3050 item 3800 item 3190 should be in their line of work, allow to provide small stuff while using their kit to stop them from attacking the Carry. Even though item 3800 is mainly for a tank item, that don't mean we should change it to a support item, rather instead having items that are meant for support like item 3190, item 3193, and item 3109 to have quest to give a small amount of gold as a profit saying maybe up to 500 gold per item quest completed plus the item become stronger or to their original power they began with. I also want to say to change item 3302 to make sure Thresh and maybe Rakan to take this item and have an easier time with it, we know that the passive heal will be too strong and the gold is abuse-able for range Carry, therefore they need to change how good it can heal to itself unless it is upgrade to item 4302, then the heals can be back to it original amount, that way they will suffer that early game sustain they want for instead a mid game sustain that wont benefit them since they only provide heals and shield

  • Damage Support (Control Mages): Control Mages provide mainly damage and some CC, their ults consist of taking up a lot of spaces like Bard Morgana who use their scary ult to make them a valuable teammate, of course the quest will relate to their damage core and CC core since some champions like Brand, Fiddlesticks, and Zyra who cant buff their allies in any shape or form, a lot of times they can even take kills for them self due to the power of their kits not the items they build upon. When it comes to it, they are active as it is, they also can gain gold when they are finish with their quest, meaning they won't need a quest since they are active in farming, damaging the enemy team and destroying wards. they can get plenty of gold, and in my opinion they are the most balance so far. their downfall is that they need the gold to get the powerhouse items they need to be like another mid lane mage. Quick side note that some champions like Morgana can build other items due to their kit, and it should be fine since they are focus on being a support-like champions.

  • Buff/Healers/Shields (Enchanters): Enchanters Provide a lot of utilities and poke in their kit. Rather it's through buffs, heals, and/or shields. These kind of champions provide a lot of utilities and provide some poke damage. In this case, base on what items they buy, should describe what they should do. For examples item 3174, item 3504, and item 2065 should be base on the base core of what they do, doing some damage and a good amount of buffs and heals ({damage:heal} should be like {3:7} ratio) and therefore should be set up with quest according, they also do some warding set up and clearing like any other supports should, BUT stuff like those should benefit Wardens. so they wont have such stuff like those.

I do want to also talk about Warding system, because so far it should be change according. there are plenty of cases were control wards would about to be destroyed but if the owner put down a control ward, the previous control get destroyed and the enemy doesn't get the gold for it. this should be change so that if you poke it, the benefit should still apply even if the owner of the control ward set another one. This should apply to regular warding too for supports who contains 4 wards at all times. then of course there is control wards of a user but gains no benefit due to last hitting them, buff this to allow support to gain some EXP or gold even if they didn't destroy the ward, that way they can catch up on exp or on gold even if they are behind.

Hopefully you get the time to read all this, I'm a Soraka main and a Kennen main, i abuse some items because how strong they are early game, and how less active they are after they get their quest complete

Séance1/7/2019, 2:45:08 PM1 votes

I generally try to think of ways i can abuse something whenever something new is proposed. The first thing to come to mind here is that the adc can buy this item at 15 mins for ~400 gold, then group mid and get decent income while grouping to pushing with the team. Essentially i think it would obliterate laning phase as the only reason the anyone would farm alone is for the extra Xp.

ModKnightsKemplar1/4/2019, 6:39:00 PM1 votes

Approved!

Done251/20/2019, 5:50:02 PM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot MapleNectar,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=PKZQhYk8,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-09-05T22:50:13.108+0000)

One of our designers is doing a quick exploration into support items and their quest passive rewards to see if there's a way to kind of spice up the satisfaction and appreciable power loaded into them to make way for a few other gameplay changes we're trying out for preseason. I don't want to get into specifics yet since we haven't actually tested them (we get to tonight for the first time). To be clear, we're not just looking to buff the current passives, but rather replace them with something better. It's also a possibility we don't ship anything for it l, but wanted to let you know we're taking some time to explore.

This was five months ago. I don't think Riot cares enough about Support items to work on them over other things. At least Relic is possibly being re-balanced to work off ability damage as well instead of just being an AA based execute.

chipndip11/21/2019, 5:48:37 PM1 votes

Simply isn't necessary work.

If you want more LeBlanc support, go ahead and up income. If you want enchanter/tank supports to remain in the game, they're balanced around functioning with less gold so I'd leave it the way it is. Having 1k AP doesn't mean much to a Nami.

Done251/18/2019, 5:28:13 PM1 votes

Supports aren't allowed to have high income because it's an relatively risk free option in comparison to going solo in top/mid. To a lesser degree this is why the jungle also offers lower gold income. No one wants to see someone go afk Veig support and end up just as strong as the, much riskier, Veig mid who has a larger chance of getting shut down hard.

Redemption, Ardent, Grail, and Mikael's are balanced around being cheaper by having +heal power and passives that not everyone can use. It's much harder for Brand to get any real use out of Ardent+Unholy than it is for Sona.

PandaNator431/4/2019, 10:34:26 PM1 votes

Interesting idea. It seems like a solution without a problem. What are you actually trying to solve? IMO the support role has less agency/power/satisfaction than the other roles, so I believe there are problems to be solved there.

The closest I see to a problem statement is

how do you create strong items for a role that generally has a lower income

Its a really interesting problem statement. You ideas don't directly solve it: If supports have more gold income, they are no longer a "role that generally has a lower income." That disconnect makes me think there is actually a different problem you're trying to solve.

What is the problem you want to solve? How do you feel about the support role? How do you feel about support items?