I feel Zac was healthier pre-update.

Bouncemaster Zac·10/4/2018, 4:49:32 AM·17 votes·27,194 views

Some while back, Zac was part of the Tank class mini-update along with Sejuani and Maokai. The purpose of this update was to bring "generalist" tanks in line and give them more defined roles. Sejuani was given synergy with melee-heavy comps, Maokai became a wide-range teamfight engager, and Zac was turned into a pick-centric design. None of these changes were well-received initially, although that's not really here nor there. Ultimately, Maokai settled into the changes, while Zac (and Sejuani) were left in a pit. As someone whose favorite Champion has been Zac since the beginning, I've chosen to make this exclusively about him and leave Sejuani for a different thread.

Prior to his rework, Zac was an aoe-heavy long range teamfight engage tank. His unique feature that made him stand out from the crowd, even as a "generalist" was his incredible engage range. This was kept in his update, but the focus of the rest of his kit was altered to focus on picking priority targets rather than disrupting entire teams. Since single-target picks are usually left to either assassins, or Champions with hooks, Zac was left in a very awkward spot. Upon release of the update he had one of the largest single-patch drops in winrate I've ever seen. His new abilities were clunky, and his clear was weaker, preventing him from attaining the stronger ganks the rework was aiming for. So he was buffed. And then the real problems became evident.

A tank, who is durable, with great range, good damage, and three multi-target displacements is obviously going to become a problem, and he became pick-or-ban that patch. It's not fun to have what is effectively a more mobile and more durable Blitzcrank kidnap you and drop you dead center of the enemy team with an ult that can't be interrupted. On the flip side, it doesn't feel good trying to pick a priority target with an ability that needs to channel for more than a full second, and is aoe so it can very easily be exploited to pull in the wrong target or worse, multiple wrong targets.

So he was nerfed, in both damage and utility. He was left feeling awful to play. Point of reference, as I feel it may be relevant, this was Zac's second mini-update. Originally Zac's W was locked to a 4s cd that could not be changed by any means, and the range scaling on his E was narrower, starting higher and ending lower. As such he felt fairly weak due to the slow clear from W permanently being at 4s, and his ganks felt average as well. He was changed to have W be locked to 5s, but refund 1s per blob grabbed, dramatically upping clear speed, and making his sustained damage in teamfights better if the player was skillful enough to play around dropped blobs properly. His E was also given it's current range-per-rank scaling, giving him a unique tool in the form of "the longest range non-ultimate engage in the game!" It made him feel unique, and worth picking over other Champions, even if he would later be accused of being "generalist."

On to his current state: He's got a 2% playrate, meaning pretty much only mains use him, and despite that has an abysmal 47.4% winrate in his strongest role. After his post-rework nerfs, he has minimal damage outside of his E, and his health cost to health restored ratio in his kit via his passive was thrown askew by doubling the health cost of his Q to 8% max hp. Pre-rework, Zac's strongest trait wasn't being a generalist, it was being reliable. His Q was snap-cast with a wide hit-box, and his ult had multiple bounces with which to hit targets. Post rework his Q is one of the worst-feeling skillshots in the game, with long windup and slow travel speed, and his ult was deliberately nerfed post-rework to make it less reliable by slightly extending how long it has to be charged to grab a target rather than simply bouncing. It feels like it's just as easy to score nothing at all as it is to make a game-changing play. And burning 8% of your max health on an hp-stacking tank for a basic ability as unreliable as his current Stretching Strike simply feels awful. Zac's rework gave him the potential to make much bigger plays, at the cost of all of his reliability. Now he sits in a gutter, because unreliability just isn't viable.

Granted, Zac did suffer from a kit-wide issue that Maokai also suffered from leading up to the update: It was hard to fail with him. Q was fire-and-forget and hitting or missing it rarely made a difference, and his old ult had a total of 4 bounces, during which the player could move, making knocking up multiple targets far easier. The core of Zac's skill was macro; making sure the area you're ganking from is unwarded so they don't simply walk out of your E. Originally he was arguably a better Malphite, as he could aoe knockup with his E, into another aoe knockup with his R, making him a one-man combo engage. His ult was altered to knock enemies up and away to prevent him from locking enemies together for an extended period and turning his ult from a combo tool to a disruptive one. This helped pull some of the overbearing reliability from his R and brought him closer into line, but left him with a major issue: all of his power now resided in his E.

As the highest damage ability in his kit, and his primary engage and cc tool, he spiked massively at level 9. His ult could only knockup each individual enemy once per cast rather than once per bounce; landing additional bounces simply reapplied half the damage. Due to the team-scattering effect of his R, Zac started lending himself to a Tank-Assassin playstyle. Landing E's whopping base damage of 280 at max rank with a .7 ap ratio, followed by all 4 hits of his ult for a total of 700 base plus 1.0 ap ratio meant simply removing squishy, high-priority targets immediately. That's without taking into consideration the extra base damage on his relatively weak Q. All this was available while still building fairly durable. This was ultimately what led to his rework, and while it's clear he had issues, I believe that not only was this rework a failure to properly address his issues (his E kept all of that crazy damage, even), but that a rework of this tier wasn't necessary to begin with.

I feel Zac's previous iteration was far better for game health than the current one, as he was less polarizing and suffered less from the fest or famine playstyle of "you either pulled the priority target or you didn't." I don't feel he should be turned back without addressing his old problems, and I've got a few ideas for solutions. I feel his abilities could be returned to what they were (or at least his ult) but his strengths would have to be spread out more evenly around his kit. First and foremost: his base damages were incredible. Dialing them back, even by relatively large numbers may be a good place to start. Specifically, as Zac is a disruptive tank, I feel rather than reworking him fully, power could have been pulled out of his base damages and into his utility.

Example: Elastic Slingshot started at 80 damage at rank 1 and gained 50 damage per rank up to 280. Since the power of the ability is intended to be it's incredible range and good cc, those factors should be kept, but the damage could easily be lowered to 60 at rank one plus 40 per rank for a max of 220. Much less up-front burst, without being low enough to feel unimpactful. The 1 second knockup was and still is in a good place, I feel, and should be kept the same. Likewise, Stretching Strike started at 70 and grew by 40 per rank up to 230. I feel base damage could be pulled out and sifted into the slow the ability had; a rather weak 20% at rank one that only scaled up by 5% per rank for a cap of 40%. It could be dialed back to 50 damage with a growth rate of 35 up to a cap of 190, and the slow upgraded from 20% to 30% but keeping the same scaling, ending at 50%. Finally, his ult starts at 140 and gains 70 per rank, eventually doubling to 280 at max rank. However, due to the multibounce it's power when dumped entirely on a single target starts at 350 and (again) doubles to the 700 mentioned previously. I feel its rank 1 power of 140 is fine, but the scaling could be dialed back to 45 per rank, ending at 230. This reduces single-target potential to 575. Still high, but not to one-shot levels. Zac's old ult left the target slowed by 20% for 1s after the knockup. To encourage using the ability for utility, hitting a target an additional time could re-apply the slow, rather than simply adding more damage.

Following my examples or similar, I feel Zac could be reasonably returned to his old kit, but still have that kit's problems addressed; that problem being that despite being a utility tank, all his utility was in one spell, and his base damages were too high for a tank. A redistribution of power, pulling damage out and putting utility in could have made him much healthier without the need for a full rework. I do feel he should keep his AP ratios however, as AP Zac is a good alternative way to play him for damage without having the added benefit of being incredibly tanky.

I would love to have his old kit back, and if a full revert like Leblanc isn't possible, maybe something like what Rengar received; a mix of old and new. As it stands, I just feel like I can't play my favorite blob boy anymore and expect to do well without the match overall favoring me. On a non-balance related note, I liked his old sfx better too.

32 Comments

Hayaishi10/7/2018, 3:18:20 AM7 votes

I preferred his old ult. The new Q is very cool but i think his ult should be reverted.

Horse Grenades10/16/2018, 12:21:23 AM5 votes

Revert him.. I miss him dearly.

Vekkna10/15/2018, 6:17:28 PM4 votes

There honestly aren't that many champs that are both healthier and better balanced than their old versions. Examples:

Aatrox Akali Brand Caitlyn Chogath Corki Fiora Galio Graves Irelia Khazix KogMaw Leblanc Malzahar Mordekaiser Quinn Ryze Sejuani Shaco Shen Swain Zac Zyra

Most of these were made to be more toxic or overpowered than their old versions. Some are just strictly worse without any benefit to champ health. Others might have been problematic before (Irelia, Akali, Galio) but are now falling into the ever-growing category of champs who are impossible to balance between pro and solo.

It isn't just Zac. Updates overall have caused more problems than they have solved. For every good update (Cassiopeia, Ashe, etc) you have 3 others that are worse off than they started.

dome02510/7/2018, 6:20:07 PM3 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/vLEjALxZ-mid-season-tanks-update-zac

Here’s what is likely to change with Zac:

  • Zac’s current kit encourages him to activate all his abilities in a single burst for maximum damage, instead of spreading them out to disrupt and bounce around the enemy team
  • After initiation, there is very little variance or mastery to his combat pattern, consisting of primarily sitting on one target and spamming his Q and W
  • Keeping in line with our overall Tank update goals, we’d like to shift some his reliable damage into additional forms of CC (we already felt that his two passives provide unique forms of defenses)
  • Although some of his abilities hit the mark, we feel that his kit could further stretch the blob man fantasy and give him a more distinct sticky feel in the Vanguard space
  • Stretching Strike does little to explore the stretching punch idea and ends up having a very similar output to Unstable Matter (AoE damage when you’re right next to someone)
  • Let’s Bounce! is a more chaotic version of Wukong’s Ultimate (Cyclone) rather than the potential teamfight-defining moment that Zac’s unique, sticky, bouncy nature promises

Those were some of the reasons why they picked Zac for the update. Simply returning to his old kit will bring some of those problems back. But first let´s check which are valid points and which are not:

-Old Zac had indeed little variance in combat pattern (because his q and w primarily dealt damage) -Zac can be seen as a tank but can also be seen as some sort of bruiser (for a tank he had not enough cc and too much reliable damage-> reliable in the sense of he can spam q and w and can´t really miss them if he sticks to his targets) -Zac´s old q did indeed little to explore the stretching punch idea

Those were valid points, which we need to keep in mind for later.

-Zac´s old ult felt like a more chaotic version of Wukong´s ult and had no teamfight-defining potential or just simply didn´t feel like it had no teamfight-defining potential

This point is invalid (at least for me, don´t know how others feel about it). His old ult didn´t feel like a more chaotic Wukong ult (but even if it would have felt like this what would have been the problem with this? Sion and Kled´s ult and new Nunu W are also similar in some way but this doesn´t mean that their abilities don´t feel good in their kit). Also his old R had this teamfight-defining potential and it never felt like his old ult didn´t have it.

Now with this gone through, we can look for solutions.

-Revert his Ult

The point they specifically made about his ult is for me invalid and it´s already in line with the tank update goals and the variance in combat patterns.

-Rework his q but based on his old q

Give his new q cc and make it to a skillshot.

Something along the lines of this:

Q(Stretching Strike): Zac swings his right arm back (as an opportunity for his enemies to prepare themselves while also emphasize the stretching punch fantasy through the animation) and after a brief delay he swings it forwards knocking back opponents he hits with his fist. After his arm reaches maximum length he increases the size of his fist (basically changing the shape of the skillshot) and after another brief delay swings it back to him knocking opponents to him.

Now why this? It adds cc (not just a slow) to his kit and gives him less reliable damage (cause he can miss it easier than his old q). It also adds variance in his combat pattern (no q+w spam for maximum damage), because his q is useful in more situations. -> Do you hold your q to peel for your carries or engage with it? Or perhaps a combo with your ult, knocking an enemy to you , going behind him and then ulting him into your team. It allows the Zac player to show his skills while his opponents can outplay him too. It explores on the stretching punch fantasy -> you see the reward of the stretching punch in form of cc and I believe 2 knock backs (one away from you and one into your direction) feel pretty impactful for a stretching punch. While you can visually emphasize it even more when the skillshot changes its shape.

And with those changes (ult revert and a reworked q) you can give him some damage in form of base stats or scalings back to allow for some build variance again (Tank, Ap Bruiser, Ap oneshot -> as you mentioned he should lose some damage on his e to make it more fair for the opponent).

Asobi Spirit11/14/2018, 7:05:37 PM2 votes

I have had a soft spot for Zac for many years now. I have countless games as Old Zac and New Zac. I can say the old Let's Bounce! Was much more fun than the sink n grab thing he has now. You touch on a lot of points, all of which are good.

I'll start with his rework, I was super sad when they decided to rework Zac after Worlds a while back. Just like any main who has their champions changed, it's not fun seeing something you've mastered get changed for the preferred image of someone else's design. I played Old Zac as much as I could before his update and finally it came. I quickly adjusted to the New Q, it has a lot of good uses for clearing waves and stopping fleeing enemies. The new ult got me for a while, I was so used to the 4 bounce that I would miss a drag on enemies a lot. Then the added a .1 second charge time to allow someone time to mash flash before the drag, and that pissed me off but it did make sense. (Making Q cost 8% health without it guaranteeing 2 blob drop on a single target pissed me off)

His damage on release (new update) was outstanding, I was carrying games due to how much damage I possessed, but sadly that changed when he got nerfed hard. They took away W's straight 40 point damage (Even after it was nerfed to 15 if I remember right) leaving it with only percentage health damage, they took away Qs percentage health damage leaving it with the magic damage. Those blows are what made his win rate plummet. Because at that point he became a strict utility tank, someone who stops bad guys while taking hits.

Recently they threw Zac a glob with a slight Q buff for more damage but it doesnt feel like it's enough. I dont notice much difference from prior to the patch. A big problem for him is that he is a mid to late game star, sure he can potentially get on a roll in the first 15 minutes but it's in the group phase where he soars, or jumps atleast. Right now hes even weaker because of bruisers and assassins in the Jungle. Early on he lacks the damage and tankiness to fight confidently.

A total revert of his kit would definitely make me happy, but then I worry about new players who have only ever known his current kit complaining about the rework.

Regulas10/31/2018, 2:55:40 PM1 votes

So I only just started playing him again (though I used to full main old zac) but I would say on the whole he actually has a pretty decent kit and is a better kit then his old one. The big thing I've found is that his mechanics just take a bunch of getting used to to really make them feel solid as when the re-work was first done I too wasn't a fan, but recently as I've gotten in tune with who he is now I've increasingly liked it more and more.

E.g. getting used to landing Q and autoing follow-up on the right target is a slightly awkward transition, but when you've gotten it down pat it really is an amazing option (note you should prioritize Q over W after lvl1), I would also argue that his current Q makes his E _less important _ rather then more important as he now has a different CC option. As old zac it often felt like if I missed E then that was it and I'm just stuck running about, just a slow from Q wasn't enough to feel that great, but with the current one you still have a strong engage and cc option E or not.

For a long time I was really mixed on his ult having been so accustomed to the repeated bounce, but now that I've gotten more in tune with it I actually really really like this ult and it's ability to make "Play of the game" defining moments. You really need to think of the ult as simply "re-position the enemy" or "aoe blitz grab" rather then as dmg or CC per say. The only issue I have with his ult is that this is the move that feels like it depends most on E to really be solid as the best times to ult are only when you've caught people out.

I'd also point out that Zac has always been a higher skill champion and as such has always had a lower winrate on average (currently up to 49ish). In general high skill champs will always have lower then 50% winrate even if they are actually healthy positioned champions.

So the main issues I feel with Zac myself right now: Ult overly depends on E for best use - perhapse a short dash when first used to better control it's position QoL on Q - it sometimes feels awkward trying to Q and rapidly hit another target and the speeds of the move can feel a bit awkward especially if someone is trying to escape the tether it just looks weird and feels awkward. **Make non DPS builds able to get S status ** - Seriously he's the only champ where I will do an amazing job decisively winning the game, most honoured, plays of the game, and then end up with a C or B rank. From what I can see for some reason it's only if I build DPS that the letter rank is high even if I do nothing useful and we loose.

RavenMagus11/6/2018, 2:49:59 AM1 votes

Old Zac was turbo cancer, and mentioning it has brought back some bad memories.

The Trent11/19/2018, 2:02:03 PM1 votes

I loved pre-rework Zac... Hated him ever since post rework. They did the same thing to my Zyra too ):

Excellent Era10/4/2018, 11:25:26 PM1 votes

I honestly don't care if they gut his base damages as long as old ap zac still feels the same, old tank zac could use less damage, I do understand that he was killing marksmen way too easily while going full/half tank

I too would like a revert and not this blitzcrank ult that is a make it or break it as riot shireve said: We're very aware that changes to R would be more contentious then anything we did to Q and W. Bottom line here is that we're looking into squishing the ~4 seconds of chaotic AoE effects into one high moment that can easily determine the outcome of a teamfight.

hitting the ultimate doesn't feel fun/rewarding cause you really didn't do anything. you waited in stealth and R'd them under ur turret or into ur team(no personal skill involved compared to old zac). and missing the ultimate feels even worse especially if you land E and they just flash ur ult not fun for the enemy or you. unless you're happy being 100% team/turret reliant with a broken ult

TLF brubie12/5/2018, 5:17:54 PM1 votes

Do consider that a lot of Zac's current issues are tied with the fact that being a tank in the jungle just isn't good right now. He's actually arguably the strongest tank jungler right now outside of rammus (and not only because he has the second highest winrate among tank junglers). It's hard to tell exactly how much, but there are a lot of players right now that really enjoy the new Zac ultimate, and in my opinion the old Zac ult would be pretty lackluster with how the game has evolved since his rework (though i do miss being able to play him in the top lane)

ModKnightsKemplar10/7/2018, 2:38:57 AM1 votes

Approved!

ModKnightsKemplar10/7/2018, 2:41:40 AM1 votes

Really like your edits! Just as a note, I went ahead and edited out your parenthetical notes to mods, as they aren't really needed for the broader discussion :)

I like your idea about nerfing damage, but I think that some additional utility tools might be needed to compensate. He was balanced around having it, healthy or not, and I'm not convinced your proposed changes give him enough of that back.

Final Raid Boss10/9/2018, 8:39:12 PM1 votes

I think his whole update mediocre at best (as a main...). He needs a revert. Hardly know where to start. New Zac actually makes me question the validity of deciding to lock him in as a pick at all now.

I don't understand what they were aiming for with his new q. It's like they just took the first idea that came to mind and went with it. In theory it seems like a cool idea but in practice it hardly works well. Great if you manage to get it off successfully (vs champs) but his q now feels very clunky and useless more or the less the whole game.

His old ult was SO MUCH BETTER. You could initiate game deciding teamfights with your E and then proceed to disrupt the enemy team with an ult that didn't work against you. There was huge disruption capability and the freedom to move around which works significantly well for Zac (also considering blob pickup). The new ult simply doesn't fit the kit, it would fit an entirely different champ entirely. His ult old GUARANTEED a unique form of disruption through skillful usage. His old ult was a signature ability, unique, gamechanging and we got an amateur replacement ult.

I feel like designers really need to think, test, and consider crucial player feedback before implementing risky changes.

Galiö10/24/2018, 5:23:55 PM1 votes

I've been thinking about this since u posted but what if they did nothing but revert the ult AND when you have a Q1 attached to someone you sling yourself and the enemy to the middle of your first bounce.

Itll be like how Q1 qnd Q2 Interact but instead you bring the enemy to you when you R.

If you didnt Q anyone before you R itll act exactly like it did before the R rework.