Should Kalista and/or Master Yi [damage types] be changed?

SanKakU·Aug 22, 2018·12 votes·26,438 views

Kalista could potentially have true damage on her W. Or if you think Master Yi is fine, on her E, maybe? Master Yi currently has true damage in his kit. A lot of it, especially with in his inventory. Meanwhile, Kalista is doing physical damage with her E which gets boosted by when she has it.

Kalista, a champion with zero AP scaling, is awkwardly holding magic damage in her kit. There is precedence for this. Zed is another champion with no AP scaling which also has magic damage in his kit(it's his passive in case you're wondering where). There are more like that IIRC, but this is about Kalista and Master Yi, not Zed or other champions.

So, what do you guys think would happen if Master Yi's true damage got changed to magic damage? Or if Kalista's magic damage got changed to true damage? A lot of people think Kalista is bad. Would they like her more if she had true damage? I'm not sure. I know that as Master Yi's opponent, I would like him a lot more if he wasn't dealing true damage. [slayer-jinx-wink]

I would argue that working with true damage is toxic and should be removed from the game. I'm neutral about Kalista's magic damage being changed to true personally, although I'm against the idea of changing her physical damage on E to true, and I'm feeling strongly that Master Yi should be changed. But what does everyone else think? Do you think just one of them should be changed, or both, or neither?

46 Comments

DorkunedAurasAug 22, 201817 votes

People think kalista is bad, but they're fine with that. Kalista's design is so inherently toxic, at least in regards to creating insanely hard counters, that she's on the list of champs that's never allowed to be good.

Personally, as a melee main, I would be happy to never see a Kalista again

Tychusfindlay918Aug 22, 20184 votes

Changing Yi's E to a resistable damage type wouldn't change the toxicity inherent in his purely auto attack kit, it would just be a gigantic nerf that he'd probably never be able to overcome without an insane buff to counterbalance it.

SanKakUAug 23, 20181 votes

That's an interesting perspective. I've never been good at Master Yi, but I was always good with Aatrox until his rework and people said the same thing about him. May I ask how you feel about the Aatrox rework? I actually liked the guy, so I dislike his rework. I would assume that many Master Yi players would dislike it if he was reworked, but this discussion probably shouldn't get derailed too much with reworks, just would like to encourage you to express your opinion a bit more so we can get some context on why you think that way.

SlashStrikerAug 22, 20182 votes

Before Yi's rework he had Bonus AD on his E which is doubled on active (up to 70) and since it's bonus AD it also improves crit

When Riot reworked Yi they stated that they want YI to be a thread in all stages of the game so they gave him True Damage on E which cannot crit any longer and reduced the duration from 10 seconds on E to 5 seconds

SanKakUAug 22, 20181 votes

I feel like some of the posters here pretend like the history of Master Yi's balance doesn't exist and that he's always been how he is now. I understand that he's more playable now than he was before, but giving him magic damage would accomplish the same thing without him automatically winning against any tank not scaling with armor and having bought a Thornmail.

His E not dealing magic damage means you can't itemize against mages and prevent some of his damage at the same time. Armor still works good against him due to his passive. So the most hardcore of tanks can still stop him(they cannot without Thornmail though, and if he has critical strikes, they also need Randuin's Omen) as can teamwork or champs with similar damage outputs and sustain options.

What if he simply did less damage and then his heal helped allies that were very, very close to him? The utility of healing an ally isn't to be underestimated(and honestly it doesn't have to heal them, maybe it restores allied mana instead of health or has some other effect, maybe the reduction of damage only perhaps, or something else entirely, but still as it is on live for himself) and could do more for making him a good champ than any buffs to his offense.

SmallCheeseCakeAug 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I feel like some of the posters here pretend like the history of Master Yi's balance doesn't exist and that he's always been how he is now. I understand that he's more playable now than he was before, but giving him magic damage would accomplish the same thing without him automatically winning against any tank not scaling with armor and having bought a Thornmail.

His E not dealing magic damage means you can't itemize against mages and prevent some of his damage at the same time. Armor still works good against him due to his passive. So the most hardcore of tanks can still stop him(they cannot without Thornmail though, and if he has critical strikes, they also need Randuin's Omen) as can teamwork or champs with similar damage outputs and sustain options.

What if he simply did less damage and then his heal helped allies that were very, very close to him? The utility of healing an ally isn't to be underestimated(and honestly it doesn't have to heal them, maybe it restores allied mana instead of health or has some other effect, maybe the reduction of damage only perhaps, or something else entirely, but still as it is on live for himself) and could do more for making him a good champ than any buffs to his offense.

good line of thinking, just that idea isn't too great imo but you're on the right track

Automated RivenAug 22, 20182 votes

Kalista has never had true damage.

I don't understand what your suggesting. That when kalista and her othsworn deal true damage when they attack the same target? If so then that is a hard hard no. The reason it deal magic damage is because it isn't supposed to be particularly good, however it's there to give bonuses for her and her ally working together. But if she is deal 10% max happy true damage that's over the top broken. I would rather see the invisible power removed from her kit so she is balanceable

SanKakUAug 22, 20181 votes

Kalista has never had true damage.

You seem to be correct. I'll have to change that part. I must have just taken for granted how impactful having a proper supportive oathsworn is on her. I think when she was first released, getting an ally to trigger that was commonplace and after a while they made changes to it and I just assumed it used to be true damage but now my oathsworn just doesn't trigger it. [sg-janna]

Automated RivenAug 22, 20181 votes

Oathsworn still triggers it tho. ...

SanKakUAug 22, 20181 votes

When I say 'my oathsworn doesn't trigger it' I am referring to toxic players, not game mechanics. [sg-miss-fortune]

Why else would I put in the word 'my' if I didn't mean my ally?

Automated RivenAug 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why else would I put in the word 'my' if I didn't mean my ally?

Sigh. Because literally everyone uses the first person when refuring to gameplay. Some examples.

I autoed. I used zhonyas. I used my ulti. I healed you. I was in alpha.

Considering the context that we are refuring to how abilities work, not whom are using them. What possesed you to believe that I would make an illogical jump that you would randomly change the subject, within the same sentance, without so much as a comma, from how an ability works to whom is using it?? It's a completely separate subject.

You seem to be correct. I'll have to change that part. I must have just taken for granted how impactful having a proper supportive oathsworn is on her. I think when she was first released, getting an ally to trigger that was commonplace and after a while they made changes to it and I just assumed it used to be true damage but now my oathsworn just doesn't trigger it

This post is a convoluted mess. I deciphered it the best I could and responded in kind.

You seem to be correct. I'll have to change that part. I must have just taken for granted how impactful having a proper supportive oathsworn is on her.

This all makes perfect sense.

I think when she was first released, getting an ally to trigger that was commonplace and after a while they made changes to it and I just assumed it used to be true damage but now my oathsworn just doesn't trigger it

This is like 4 sentences and the subject changes repeatedly throughout. Firstly

I think when she was first released, getting an ally to trigger it was commonplace and after a while they just made changes to it and I just assumed it used to be true damage

Seems like a terrible run-on sentence where you specifically refer to another player as an 'ally' and if cleaned up reads as such.

I think when she was first released, getting an ally to trigger it was commonplace. After a while changes were made to it, and i assumed it used to be true damage.

But if you actually read what you wrote it says.

I think when she was first released, getting an ally to trigger it was commonplace. After a while my allies made changes to it and I assumed it used to be true damage.

Which makes no sense at all.

So I have to infer from your sentence, what you are actually saying. Because you aren't saying what you actually mean.

Following your actual sentence and just adding punctuation shifts your subject from 'my allies' (who, btw are making changes too the game????) To my oathsworn. Which logically means either your oathsworn is not your ally, (doesn't make sense) or it's a different form, (mechanic in the game vs actual player)

SanKakUAug 23, 20181 votes

how impactful having a proper supportive oathsworn is on her.

That was the second sentence. The third sentence also had the word 'oathsworn' in it. I was consistent and clear.

You're acting like I was changing subjects when I was not. Perhaps you're misunderstanding the timeline of my third sentence, but you trying to correct my English is bad form because you don't understand the heart of the message.

There are two phases to Kalista as far as I'm concerned. Back when she was first released and was a new champ and people were hyped for it. And everything else afterward. I'm not saying there haven't been a lot of changes to her since she was no longer the newest champion. There certainly has been a lot of changes to her. But to the rest of the team, and especially to whoever is her oathsworn, none of that matters in the slightest. All they know is she is 'bad champ' and that they are better off doing IRL stuff or just making their ally's gaming life miserable by not doing their job on the team.

That is what I was trying to explain, but I was trying to do it in a very nice and polite way. Perhaps I was being too polite, but if you played a respectable amount of Kalista I think you would not have been confused. Ignoring the time when she was first released, which goes back further than the match history on this website goes, I have played her almost 3 times as much as you have. And I don't think I've played her very much compared to the average person, at least not since the match history started. So I don't get why you're acting like some kind of Kalista expert when clearly you aren't. And I played quite a lot of her when she first came out(as soon as she dropped from her exalted IP cost) because she was one of the few marksman that I was really excited for and didn't want to wait to try out.

Automated RivenAug 23, 20181 votes

Nothing I said had anything to do with kalista. It had to do with Grammer. Aside from the original corrections of my perception of what you said.
My entire last post was an exagerated explanation of how I got the impression I did from what you said. The mocking tone of your prior post dictated the overly emphatic deconstruction of all the ways you comunicated poorly.
I have never claimed to be an expert on kalista, nor have I even claimed to have played her.

However your suggestion that your post which was riddled with gramical errors as being, 'consistent and clear' is laughable at best. Also this.

but you trying to correct my English is bad form because you don't understand the heart of the message.

My commentary on your Grammer is exactly why I didn't understand the heart of your message. And instead of simply correcting my minunderanding and explaining more clearly what you had intended to convey; you, instead, decided to respond as though I was the stupid one.

Why else would I put in the word 'my' if I didn't mean my ally?

My job is not to reconstruct and properly understand your poorly constructed sentences. It is your job to communicate clearly what you intend to comunícate. If you cannot do that, then I don't know what to tell you.

SanKakUAug 23, 20181 votes

I'm glad you pointed out my error, but at this point you're just straight up bullying me for absolutely no apparent reason at all.

Electro522Aug 22, 20181 votes

Approved!

doodlebob666Aug 22, 20181 votes

Yi would have his tank killing capabilities nerfed drastically from the damage type shift, since he wouldn't get any magic pen unless it is valuable enough to get a wits end and even then that is more effective vs squishies.

Kalista would benefit from the shift to true damage, since 15% max health magic damage is reduced to almost half of it's value by a tank buying spirirt visage, so their is no point in maxing it over q, since the damage is not only not reliable but also not incredibly significant, if it becomes true damage though she probably would max it second. If it becomes true damage she would be very overbearing in pro play again since she gets a 15% max health true damage burst that could help take down tanks if she synergies with her support.

SangreDeNocheAug 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yi would have his tank killing capabilities nerfed drastically from the damage type shift, since he wouldn't get any magic pen unless it is valuable enough to get a wits end and even then that is more effective vs squishies.

Kalista would benefit from the shift to true damage, since 15% max health magic damage is reduced to almost half of it's value by a tank buying spirirt visage, so their is no point in maxing it over q, since the damage is not only not reliable but also not incredibly significant, if it becomes true damage though she probably would max it second. If it becomes true damage she would be very overbearing in pro play again since she gets a 15% max health true damage burst that could help take down tanks if she synergies with her support.

Does Yi's heal still scale with AP at all?

CarnicoreAug 30, 20181 votes

It does. It's the only AP scaling Master Yi still has.

NiamhNyxAug 22, 20181 votes

I dont even want to think of a kali with true 10% max hp true damage. That would scare the living shit out of me. I can take a Yi, but that jumpy little bitch? no thanks.

SanKakUAug 22, 20181 votes

Wouldn't true damage on her Rend be even scarier though? That's her E, the ability that gets boosted by item 3124 when she has it. I'm actually wondering how long it will be until a Kalista main pops in here and says 'hey why not do the opposite and give her true damage with her E since Master Yi has it too' although I imagine they wouldn't be getting their hopes up.

LuaDotExeAug 22, 20181 votes

From what I've seen, Kalista and Zed's case is different from that of Master Yi's (plus, it'd be weird to build for physical damage and then start getting more magical damage, unless it's a hybrid scaling), so I'll discuss that point rather than Yi's.

Kalista and Zed's passive magical damage doesn't scale with AD; if you think about it, as well, they don't build any magic pen, meaning it's kind of just a flat value with super consistent damage. Kha'Zix's passive, however, DOES scale with AD, and does magical damage. Why would it make sense for this to be the case?

Well, we get into the case of overcoming resistances, but not in a way that involves true damage. Changing your damage type to the other in a specific case allows you to bypass more resistance (building MR for Kha, Zed, and Kalista don't make sense), but it's still not a super significant chunk of their damage (unless you're like me and go Dark Harvest Kha'Zix, in which case, congrats! You ALSO have earned a bad person award!) and doesn't really warrant it. I'll cut to the chase: if this is to overcome resistances, why isn't this true damage?

Well, let's think about this in terms of a switch, which can be "on" or "off," and determines whether or not we want this to overcome resistances. If it's "on," we say "okay it's true damage," and if it's "off," we say "okay it's your primary damage." But what if we don't want it to overcome resistances to the degree that true damage does? In that case, it makes plenty of sense to put the switch right down the middle. TL;DR: it's more-or-less true damage to squishies, and tanks can, for lack of better wording, tank it better. It's a weird space between "does" and "does not" for overcoming resistances.

In the case of Master Yi, as a Yi main, it would feel really out-of-place for it to be magical damage; it makes up a significant amount of his damage, and is there for the purpose of circumventing resistances. Whereas the secondary damage typing doesn't make up a significant part of Kalista's and Zed's damage output, the secondary damage typing makes up a large portion of Master Yi's (approximately a quarter on average, if I were to venture a guess). TL;DR again: Master Yi's true damage is all the way up on the "overcomes resistances" option because it's a larger portion of his damage, more significant, and more important.

Not really a case or a point, but I thought that I'd mention that what something like the lack of a scaling does is create a way to keep item dependency under control, as well making something that's going to always be dealing more-or-less the same amount of damage (in terms of "how quickly can I kill someone"), no matter where you are in the game.

SanKakUAug 22, 20181 votes

Believe me, the magic damage on Zed and Kalista matters. Many of Kalista's partners deal a respectable amount of magic damage themselves, and Zed nearly always goes Electrocute, so the magic resist is generally not wasted against such champions. Master Yi still buys item 3087 regularly, as well as the already mentioned item 3124 and supposing he's doing that, magic resistance is definitely relevant against him, but if you're buying magic resist solely for the plan of countering his damage, yeah, you're doing it wrong. It's more like you buy the magic resist because of a primary threat on his team, and it still does something against him as a small bonus. Changing his damage type from true to magic damage would enlarge that bonus somewhat. And I don't think it would be unfair to him because either way he's still going to do a lot of damage.

I feel like Meditate could be changed slightly so that it grants very close allied champs some status effect, and that would be all he needs to see play in pro games and feel more fun to play for the average player while encouraging teamwork. Maybe it gives them health over time while near him, or mana, or the damage reduction, or something else entirely, maybe even an offensive boost, who knows. But the point is that there is a really simple way to make him better without piling on more damage or mobility.

The FIame GodAug 22, 20181 votes

Just throwing this in there Electrocute does adapative damage so it would most likely be dealing physical damage for zed and as for Kalista's partners there damage does not come into account when calculating Kalista's damage and how it should be interpreted and balanced around.

SanKakUAug 22, 20181 votes

Oh, I didn't realize that it had adaptive damage, my bad. I guess it's been revealed that I never boarded the Electrocute Hype Train.

But you're wrong about Kalista. Her W doesn't deal any damage if her Oathsworn doesn't attack the same thing as her. Could you please use the LoL wiki more often? I literally just type 'champion_name wiki' into my browser and the search engine pulls up the proper page and I can find out the current information on their abilities. It has helped me a lot in both learning new things and in verifying my own knowledge.

"ADAPTIVE DAMAGE: Deals either physical or magic damage depending on your bonus statistics, defaulting to physical damage." So I was actually more wrong than you were bold enough to tell me I was or simply didn't know better. But Zed would never buy AP or so I would hope which means he'd never have magic damage on his Electrocute. And neither would any other champion that never buys any AP apparently, which I absolutely had no idea about.

The FIame GodAug 22, 20181 votes

I wasn't saying talking about Kalista's w when I was talking about her supports magic damage as I thought you were talking about the champions damage that was what i was referring to

SaezioSep 9, 20181 votes

You didn't know electrocute was adaptive and you scold people with information about kalista. The irony is so strong. Plus since you wanna go technical about it kalista can do extra damage with w if she attacks what her oathsworn attacked first or even if she doesn't through the extra AD she gains ;)

SanKakUSep 9, 20181 votes

This thread is about soul-marking. And I can use the same argument against you here. She won't get any bonus AD with her W if her oathsworn breaks the link.

"as for Kalista's partners there damage does not come into account when calculating Kalista's damage"

I was taking issue with that statement because even considering that it was poorly formatted, it was also misleading or straight up incorrect. If anything, you just gave me another excuse to shame oathsworn players. Of course it's not like I forgot about this new change to Kalista. They used to give her attack speed when oathsworn was near her but they felt like it was not obvious enough to her and/or her oathsworn, so they changed it to AD.

Anyone can bounce back and forth between being in the link and out of the link to troll Kalista. They might be worried about dying and if they are that can bring down her damage. What I don't know is what can Riot possibly do to make it clear to the oathsworn that their actions are contributing to Kalista's downfall/success in a way that doesn't enrage them.

If there's no possible way to achieve that, maybe we just need to make her too strong so that oathsworns in general aren't super toxic towards her. If you'd like me to post something new, simply opening up discussion for how to make Kalista's dependency on her oathsworn more palatable for the playerbase, I can do that. But throwing in details you supposedly think I'm ignoring in order to try to make me look like a fool is just being non-productive.

GlaedrAug 22, 20181 votes

Kalista's biggest problem is how well her entire kit synergizes with coordinated teamplay. Something as simple as 20 true damage on her W at level 3 instantly becomes overwhelming when paired with a support who actually understands her kit and knows how to utilize it with his own, which is why Kalista Thresh was one of the strongest bot lanes ever. She needs changes, but anything paired with another team mate makes her too strong in high ranks and pro play while being next to nothing in lower ranks. It's up to Riot to decide what to prioritize though.

Yi is completely fine considering he loses pretty much any fight to bruisers and has a one way trip to do damage. He only seems insane when he's cleaning up with resets.

Meep ManAug 22, 20181 votes

The issue with Yi is he is a melee carry that has no way of helping his weakness against CC that a melee carry inherently is weak against. His only way of helping against CC is against slows, which is the weakest form of CC. If he is facing a team with strong stuns or displacement, his input is next to nothing. Therefore, the input he IS able to put out actually should be high and hard to play around because Yi is a champion with no way of working around his weaknesses. If they are present, he is just screwed. Therefore, I think Yi should keep his true damage because its the only reason he is played right now, and even now he is only really played in casual play. The only time Yi ever sees any form of competitive play is when he is so overtuned or a strategy causes him to deal so much damage that he can actually reasonably kill someone before reaction is even possible, except with Yi its with true damage unlike Assassins like Rengar who deal entirely physical damage and you can at least build against it or use damage reduction mechanics to try and preemptively reduce his damage dealt.

I don't really have a valid opinion on Kalista because I haven't played her much, played with her much, or against her much.

Tahminatrix Aug 22, 20181 votes

item 3071 Kalista has been a thing.

SanKakUAug 23, 20181 votes

I like the item, and maybe she should buy it more often.

ModValeevaAug 23, 20181 votes

Guinsoo's has never been a true core item on Kalista for her to warrant such things.

Her core items have always been about BORK + Hurricane, Guinsoo's is only a 2% pickrate item. 2%

This tiny number doesn't make it so she should be changed in the slightest. Also, the AP scaling on Guinsoo's isn't enough and generally Kalista falls off before she'd get it as a 3rd item.

SanKakUAug 23, 20181 votes

You would buy it like Garen item 3025 since they are useful items even if you don't get the full benefit that other champions would. I think maybe you meant item 3115 instead of item 3124 in your final sentence and potentially confused her with Kaisa because sometimes she goes a primarily AP build. I'm not saying Kalista can't buy AP items, but if her build was primarily AP, it seems like it would be something like item 3031 Soraka and a really, really bad idea.

LatetotheRaceAug 24, 20181 votes

I honestly don't believe that adding true damage to a champion is safe or well thought out, nor do I even believe that it's a valid solution to a problem. From my experience, kallista is just a champion with a poor kit right now, and she needs fundamental changes to make her balanced, Not just true damage. Master Yi on the other hand seems to utterly spew true damage, especially with conqueror, and as such at the end of the game true damage often makes up 30-40% of his overall damage to champions and this climbs to 50-60% against tanks which is absurd. As there is no real counterplay to true damage, I would even move to have both sources removed and master Yi get a VGU that adds a bit more mechanical skill to his damage output. That could just be me, but that's my ideal for both of them.

agac4234Sep 8, 20181 votes

you forgot anout blue kayn. his passive does bonus magic dmg rather then physical dmg

SanKakUSep 9, 20181 votes

Yeah well that's basically intentional design and I doubt anyone would want it to be true damage. But yeah, Kalista and him seem to share that similarity. Kayn's passive has no real limit I think? So it would be very different from giving Kalista or Zed true damage instead of their magic damage.

agac4234Sep 10, 20181 votes

nha kayn does 42% bonus magic dmg from his abilitys which makes him really weak in the late game

SanKakUSep 10, 20181 votes

Actually, his healing from Red transformation comes from his abilities, while the magic damage bonus from Blue transformation comes from damage during the first 3 seconds of combat.

agac4234Sep 10, 20181 votes

bro am a kayn main. and am talking about his blue form not his red. his blue form does 42% (from 23 to 42 % i belive)bonus magic dmg for the first 3 second in champion combat.

SanKakUSep 11, 20181 votes

Um, yeah you told me Blue Kayn only got damage from his abilities which he doesn't. He can get it from attacks, items, summoner spells I suppose as well.

agac4234Sep 11, 20181 votes

did u read what i even said? his passive gies him 24% bonus magic dmg equvelnt to his abilitys dmg (Q,W) and his Q and W scales of items but his passive doesnt so i dont get what ur atalking about

SanKakUSep 12, 20181 votes

Red's passive only cares about damage from abilities, Blue's passive only cares about damage done in first 3 seconds. IOW, Red's passive won't heal from any source of damage that didn't come from Q, W, or R. Blue's passive has a different restriction, caring instead about when the damage takes place.

agac4234Sep 12, 20181 votes

no it doesnt lmao. it says the first 3 second ur abilitys deal 42% bonus magic dmg and thats all it says. ir doesnt guve you extra dmg on you AA and the passive only lasts for 3 seconds

AlzonSep 10, 20181 votes

As a tank player, I believe a Yi who builds on-hit deserves to be able to shred tanks - but it should come at the cost of doing much less damage to squishies than a raw AD, lethality, or even crit build. His E active could either convert a portion of his damage to true damage like Conqueror, or it does on-hit %HP true damage instead of flat. I also believe Alpha Strike should have a lower base damage at higher ranks and a higher AD ratio.

I don’t see Kalista often enough to comment on her, I’m afraid.

SanKakUSep 11, 20181 votes

I feel like those changes would make him even more powerful. It's not a simple matter to beat him as a tank at all, and you want him to deal even more damage to them? Doesn't make sense to me.

AlzonSep 11, 20181 votes

It’s because I don’t want him to have the “death touch” for my carries while also being able to eat me in two seconds. He should have one or the other, not both, and I’d rather it be me, because I can CC him under fire from my carries. It’s just nearly impossible to keep him from getting off an Alphe Strike and an auto on a carry.