Boards›[ARCHIVED] Gameplay+

Remove Lost Chapter Passive, Reduce Cost

Ifneth··4 votes·26,800 views

The Lost Chapter would be a healthier item without its on-level-up missing-mana regeneration passive.

Before the mage item rework, it enabled mages to recall early and then passively waveclear, inhibiting aggression both in the middle and, through the roaming this waveclear enabled, side lanes. The rework increased the Lost Chapter’s price to delay its purchase and, were the mage forced to base, effectively prevent its passive from being used in lane.

Unfortunately, the Lost Chapter is also the first large purchase of any squishy mage, and the rework only increased its powerspike by raising its Ability Power and adding 10% Cooldown Reduction. Whereas their opponents can recall for a 1,100 gold Catalyst of Aeons, Serrated Dirk, or Hextech Revolver and return with full health and mana. Mages can then be zoned off minions, forced to recall, or even killed despite having otherwise played their lane well. This inherent disadvantage and its potential consequences are both frustrating and have reduced the presence of Chapter-rushing champions in the midlane meta. For reference, only 3 of the current top 15 op.gg champions generally rush it.

If the only way to keep the Lost Chapter passive from letting waveclear dominate Midlane is to make it unaffordable, then we should just remove the passive and cheapen the item accordingly. I propose a 200 gold cost reduction, to 1,100 gold, which is standard for the other midlane first items I mentioned. With this reduction and the removal of the passive, we could both guarantee that the waveclear meta never returns and equalize the first goal that mages and their opponents must reach.

Edit: I propose the following recipie and stats.

30 AP 300 Mana Unique Passive: Haste item 1052 + item 1027 + 315

46 Comments

TomiMan74 votes

Cool, then with this change, make sure that assassins have even worse waveclear, because now a talon with one W can pretty much one shot a whole wave and bum off he goes to f up your botlane. After the mana changes most of the assassins and bruisers have better waveclear in the midlane than mages, who SUPPOSED to have better waveclear than those two classes, but thats not the case anymore. An irealia talon, wukong, even a zed can outshove a mage and roam to bot, before the mage can clear his wave and respond to the roam. Or just casually kill their laner, since they have lower cd abilites, that can be used to waveclear.(AND TIAMAT)

Ifneth2 votes

Calm down. This is Gameplay+. Resentful, all-caps laden complaints have no place here.

This change will not reduce mages’ waveclear against assassins. In fact, it may increase it, since they will now finish their first advanced item at the same time. No more having to farm 200 gold against Dirk or Revolver carrying slayer with full health and mana.

Wukong is no longer a problem after his nerfs. Tiamat Talon is rare (11% buy rate) and poor (49% winrate). Irelia is not known for her waveclear until she has Sheen and levels. I perma-ban Zed, though. His waveclear needs a fix.

TomiMan71 votes

Calm down. This is Gameplay+. Resentful, all-caps laden complaints have no place here.

Wat? just because i use caps on some words highlithing doesnt mean im not calm.lol

This would severly reduce their waveclear since once they run out of mana lvling up will no longer allow them to stay in lane, but rather they would have to back for mana. Since the mentioned classes have much lower mana costs and lower cds on their main waveclear abilities this would hinder them.

Wukong is no longer a problem after his nerfs. Tiamat Talon is rare (11% buy rate) and poor (49% winrate). Irelia is not known for her waveclear until she has Sheen and levels. I perma-ban Zed, though. His waveclear needs a fix.

Im talking about their waveclear not their dmg(wukong). Talon, tiamat or no, has much better waveclear than most(if not all) mages, irelia is the same with E and endless Q for push. Once she gets tiamat or sheen she outpushes and roam all midlaners hands down.

Tinkering with mages mana pool was the soul reason why these type of bruisers got a chance to be played in the mid lane in the first place. restricting mages mana pool further will just result them getting completely shoved out of midlane if facing any of the bruiser(ish) type champs or assassins. Just think about ekko, talon ahri, all of them can waveclear with just one spell after a few item components.

And the fact that a perk of playing a mage supposed to be that you have god like waveclear, and a perk of playing assassin is that you have shitty waveclear should not be forgotten. which IS being forgotten not just by you, but riot themselves

Ifneth1 votes

The difference between having and not having the passive is seen only after Lost Chapter is bought, which is the first recall at the earliest. Moreover, as level-ups spread out, the passive is proc’d only once or twice between recalls. It matters only when a mage would not have had enough mana but then received a Lost Chapter regeneration. In other words, the passive is basically gone already. The item is expensive just to make sure it’s rarely used.

So, Lost Chapter mages won’t lose much clear for losing the passive, but dropping the price to 1,100 gold would make a huge difference, since they could base at the same time as Catalyst, Dirk, and Revolver opponents. The advantage—and removal of a troublesome mechanic—is worthwhile.

TomiMan72 votes

Im not even gonna get into why you are so wrong. would take too much time. only gonna give you one hint.

The item is expensive just to make sure it’s rarely used.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Ahri/

Look at the finished items. Ludens, Pick:72.72%. So for you that is rarely used. Okay. Just sit down and think why would your proposed change be a huge nerf to ANY mana user.

Ifneth1 votes

You do realize we’re talking about the first recall, right? Buying Lost Chapter at Level 8 doesn’t do much, and the passive goes away after you complete the item it builds into. That’s why it costs 1,300 gold—to keep mages from finishing it early and abusing the passive.

So, as I said in the original post, let’s get rid of the passive and drop the price.

TomiMan71 votes

You do realize we’re talking about the first recall, right?

yes i do realise but what you are failing to realise that you said that LC is an item that rarely bought witch is just just not true at all lol.

Buying Lost Chapter at Level 8 doesn’t do much, and the passive goes away after you complete the item it builds into.

Okay first of all if you know how to farm you dont need lvl8 to get it. thats one thing. Second, you fail the realise why does the passive goes away. RITO wanted to reduce the mages waveclear. How did they achieve this? First they tinkered with the mana pool, second they removed this mana restoration passive once the item is completed. Why? Simple, you would get 600 mana once completed plus 20% max mana per lvl up. So they opted to remove the restoration and only leave the 600 mana. Capise?

So, as I said in the original post, let’s get rid of the passive and drop the price.

Why is this a bad idea? Hope you finally get this cos im getting tired to explain you these things. You get lost chapter and basically infinite mana with that until you get the whole item. Why? (Once again you need to know how to farm to get it in time.) Second, you most likely will get boots maybe even tier 2 if needed, pink wards, even though they are not really bought by some ppl, cant say why though. Then if its an assassin you might even opt into a item 3191 before you finish your first mana item. By the time you get here you are around lvl11 and yes at this point the mana restoration passive doesnt really do you a whole lot. But before this time, lvls 6-11 its quite good. After this point you get the whole mana item and with that your extra 300 mana on top of item 3802.

Ifneth1 votes

You’re deliberately misunderstanding my point about the first recall, then.

“If you know how to farm” you can justify a 1,400 item price, too. If you back before 1,300 gold for any reason, you don’t get LC when its mana regeneration counts.

Lost Chapter’s mana regeneration doesn’t continue after item completion because Morellonomicon used to restore 20% mana on takedown. The new LC items just don’t have it to reduce waveclear. You clearly don’t know about the mage mana changes.

Your counterargument is incoherent. I said remove the passive and drop the price. Now you’re talking about it as though I didn’t say remove the passive. I don’t think you care what I actually say.

TomiMan72 votes

I don’t think you care what I actually say.

Yeah you are right cos the whole idea is bad and YOU are the one who dont get it why, even though me and others in the comments already told you and i will try to tell once again for one last time.

You remove the passive and you reduce the cost. Good what did you achieve with this? Nothing. Literally NOTHING. Lost chapter gives you 40 ap and 300 mana. The components give you guess what 20+20 AP + 250 mana. For sub 100 gold you get +50mana, 20% max mana back every time you lvl up and you also get 10% CDR. If you reduce the cost that would mean you would have to change the build path and that would mean you would actually have to have a bigger combine cost witch is quite big already with item 3285 and item 3003 . I guess you didnt think about that did you? No you didnt. Then you would be complaining for a 1205 combine cost for item 3285, thats 60 less than item 3089 combine costs. Not only that but the other component is 850 gold. You get that, that his is a HUGE ammount of gold in the early game? NONE would get this item ever after this change.

I dont know why you are so eager to reduce that 1300 gold, when you can buy a 435*2 and a 350 components and have the same stats. You dont have to back at 1300 gold, you can literally back anytime and pick up a component and when you can afford the item 3802 shove the wave and back.

Other thing is that the waveclear meta is not even relewant now. or atleast not with mages. The only ones who can actually shove waves nowadays are NOT mages. They are the ones that I've already mentioned. You want to solve a non exsisting problem.

More ppl upvoted those comments that told you that this is a horrible idea, than the number of ppl who upvoted your post. That should already give you a hint if your proposal is any good.

Ifneth1 votes

If you don’t care what I say, then you’re not replying to it, in which case you’re just rambling, incoherently, I might add.

TomiMan71 votes

I dont care, cos u r not right, and even though me and others are trying to point out why, you are ignorant to our advice, and keep believing that this is a good idea. I dont know how many reasons do we have to give you to get that this is not good.

Skias2 votes

{quoted}

If you don’t care what I say, then you’re not replying to it, in which case you’re just rambling, incoherently, I might add.

To be honest, your idea has flaws. The changes really dont change anything and all you would encourage is mages to stack chapters because there is no unique passive. So, you would remove Anivia from being able to be played at all and instead just have Galios etc stacking chapters.

I dont care for this option, personally. Not to mention, it would become a boring stat stick with no power conditions whatsoever.

Hibeki1 votes

Talon needs at the very least level 7 and item 3077 before he can clear waves that fast.

Though to be fair, thats also his job. He has less engagement range in lane than any other assassin, he was made to roam.

TomiMan72 votes

whoahahah wtf? thats his job? you must be new to leage or something. assassins back in the day had no waveclear. That was a perk of the mage class. They had all the waveclear. An assassin SHOULDNT be able to outshove a mage.

Skias2 votes

{quoted}

whoahahah wtf? thats his job? you must be new to leage or something. assassins back in the day had no waveclear. That was a perk of the mage class. They had all the waveclear. An assassin SHOULDNT be able to outshove a mage.

Yeah, exactly. The counter play to assassins is to keep them pinned. Assassins are not supposed to have waveclear.

aezens3 votes

I´m not sure wheter riot should tackle wave clear first or separate. That´s actually the only thing what makes mages viable. They need a lot of gold to be efficient and lack consistant range damage like adc´s have. And even if they had stronger aa for example, anything with a gapcloser is a permanent thread without reliable disengage or support. Not sure what needs to be changed but removing mana regeneration or anything else related to waveclear might be the death blow.

I think mages can´t be stronger in duels because there wave clear is too good and there wave clear can´t be lowered because they are bad at duelling.

Ifneth1 votes

{quoted}

I´m not sure wheter riot should tackle wave clear first or separate. That´s actually the only thing what makes mages viable. They need a lot of gold to be efficient and lack consistant range damage like adc´s have. And even if they had stronger aa for example, anything with a gapcloser is a permanent thread without reliable disengage or support. Not sure what needs to be changed but removing mana regeneration or anything else related to waveclear might be the death blow.

I think mages can´t be stronger in duels because there wave clear is too good and there wave clear can´t be lowered because they are bad at duelling.

Reducing the stats and price of Lost Chapter would help mages buy it on their first recall more often. Also note my OP edit to propose a build path.

aezens3 votes

The problem remains though no mana reg = less wave clear. More base mana (even with this early access version) doesn´t really matter. You are just delaying your backport by 3 maybe 4 waves. The real powerspike is the mana restoration because the damage increase is negligible. It´s far from effective as a item 3134.

Another problem is the total costs for items like item 3285 or item 3003 are unaffected because they don´t include this passive effect and the combination costs are actually higher.

In summary: yes..you are paying less gold but you don´t get anything valuable in return leaving you with a less efficient farming session for the next/real powerspike.

Ifneth1 votes

The problem is that the mana restoration isn’t often meaningfully achieved anyway. You usually buy a tome or two and a crystal on your first back because you’ve lost health or mana in lane. Getting to the 10% CDR and gold efficiency powerspike at all would be better than having the promise of those two and a regen passive just a couple hundred gold too far.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Approved!

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Pretty neat idea, good backup data there.

Alternatively, do you feel there's design space to lower the stats and keep some version of the passive? I wonder if mages will still struggle too much in the mid game without it.

I've never liked the "give mana on level" mechanic; I was hyped when catalyst passive got changed to it's current form. But I think some kind of mana refund or mana regen passive could be really nice, if not necessary, on it.

Ifneth1 votes

{quoted}

Pretty neat idea, good backup data there.

Alternatively, do you feel there's design space to lower the stats and keep some version of the passive? I wonder if mages will still struggle too much in the mid game without it.

While the stats must be reduced to lower the price, the stats are high because Riot wanted the item to be too expensive for mages to buy early for the restores. Reducing the price while keeping the passive would only return the waveclear meta. There’s no design space to do it.

Mages might lose one or two restores of mana between building the Lost Chapter and finishing their first item, but those losses matter only to mages not recalling anyway for other reasons. An affordable advanced item is worth losing the restore, which has proven problematic anyway.

We should balance the item around reasonable flat stats, which are less snowballs and more reliable. For example, we could have Lost Chapter build from an Amplifying Tome and Sapphire Crystal, offering 30 AP and 350 Mana and the unique Haste Passive.

I've never liked the "give mana on level" mechanic; I was hyped when catalyst passive got changed to it's current form. But I think some kind of mana refund or mana regen passive could be really nice, if not necessary, on it.

The mechanic is inherently so problematic that removing it is worthwhile. We can balance the item around its flat stats like we the others. Mages’ mana pools will no longer need to be balanced around it. It’s time to just pull it.

Pokemonred2001 votes

What do you think of potentially changing the passive to something similar to item 3010's old 'Valor's Reward' passive?

Waveclear meta wasn't nearly as bad back then to my memory, and the time it took for the regen to complete was notably longer (though the passive carried over to item 3027 and, until the item was nerfed, item 3800).

(For reference, Valor's Reward restored 150 Health and 200 Mana over 8 seconds on level up, rather than 20% maximum mana over 3 seconds on level up. Would you consider this healthier? Is it reasonable to bring it back on Lost Chapter, or are the three items it builds into (item 3003 item 3030 item 3285) too strong for any sort of mana sustain to be allowed on the mid tier?

Ifneth1 votes

{quoted}

What do you think of potentially changing the passive to something similar to item 3010's old 'Valor's Reward' passive?

That only creates the bigger problem of having health regen in addition to mana regen. My post is arguing that granting mages regen in lane off their first item has been a failure. It’s time to give up on that, try something else, and fix the damage that trying to do it caused. That starts with Lost Chapter’s high cost.

Waveclear meta wasn't nearly as bad back then to my memory, and the time it took for the regen to complete was notably longer (though the passive carried over to item 3027 and, until the item was nerfed, item 3800).

The time of the regen does not matter. If the mana can be gotten, then it can be gotten. The competitive meta, for a long time, had either been Viktor and Azir clearing waves with Hexcore and Lost Chapter and then Taliyah with Lost Chapter.

Seer of Mind1 votes

{quoted}

What do you think of potentially changing the passive to something similar to item 3010's old 'Valor's Reward' passive?

Waveclear meta wasn't nearly as bad back then to my memory, and the time it took for the regen to complete was notably longer (though the passive carried over to item 3027 and, until the item was nerfed, item 3800).

(For reference, Valor's Reward restored 150 Health and 200 Mana over 8 seconds on level up, rather than 20% maximum mana over 3 seconds on level up. Would you consider this healthier? Is it reasonable to bring it back on Lost Chapter, or are the three items it builds into (item 3003 item 3030 item 3285) too strong for any sort of mana sustain to be allowed on the mid tier?

Honestly think that it would be changed to a flat amount of mana rather than mana AND hp, the mana returned could scale or not scale with level just to keep the original feel. 150 Mana is a bit more reasonable as well (200 mana IMO is too much as it allows for a full combo in most kits)

Done251 votes

Tear should be the mana sustain item. Lost chapter is actually just way too strong in general. It's gives 120% wth of stats before any mana is regained via leveling. Remove the mana regain, and leave the price as it is.

Ifneth1 votes

{quoted}

Tear should be the mana sustain item. Lost chapter is actually just way too strong in general. It's gives 120% wth of stats before any mana is regained via leveling. Remove the mana regain, and leave the price as it is.

That’s just a straight nerf to everyone who builds Lost Chapter.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

That’s just a straight nerf to everyone who builds Lost Chapter.

Good.

Ifneth1 votes

That’s not an argument, and Lost Chapter champions are not dominating the meta. This is Gameplay+. We have standards here.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

That’s not an argument, and Lost Chapter champions are not dominating the meta. This is Gameplay+. We have standards here.

You want an argument? Here.

Lost Chapter Gold Cost 1300

40 ability power =  Gold 870
300 mana =  Gold 420
    Total Gold Value = Gold 1290 

10% cooldown reduction (from passive) = Gold 266.67

    Total Gold Value = Gold 1556.67

Hexdrinker Gold Cost 1300

20 attack damage =  Gold 700
35 magic resistance =  Gold 630

    Total Gold Value = Gold 1330

Both are 1300 gold combo items, but Lost Chapter is worth nearly 255 more gold in base stats.

Ifneth1 votes

That’s still not an argument. What are you even arguing in favor of?

Done251 votes

{quoted}

That’s still not an argument. What are you even arguing in favor of?

That Lost Chaper is way too gold efficient and too strong a power spike?

Ifneth1 votes

The item is not even gold efficient without its cooldown reduction passive, which is a non-combat stat available only on completion, which is frequently impossible on a first recall.

Removing an Amplifying Tome, 10 AP, and the regeneration passive while reducing the price by 200 gold would put the item on par with its midlane counterparts, letting mages complete it rather than have to sit midlane against an opponent with full health and mana and an item.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

The item is not even gold efficient without its cooldown reduction passive, which is a non-combat stat available only on completion, which is frequently impossible on a first recall.

Literally nothing you just said makes any sense. Why would you not include the CDR, what does it mater if you only get it on combine, and how is CDR not a combat stat!?

Removing an Amplifying Tome, 10 AP, and the regeneration passive while reducing the price by 200 gold would put the item on par with its midlane counterparts, letting mages complete it rather than have to sit midlane against an opponent with full health and mana and an item.

Hex Drinker is 1300 gold as well. Lost Chapter price is fine.

Ifneth1 votes

I excluded the CDR because, by itself, it makes the item gold-efficient. It’s not a combat stat like AD, AP, Armor, Magic Resistance, or Penetration because it doesn’t help you trade or all-in unless you can harass off cooldown. Getting it only on combine means that, unless you actually have 1,300 gold when you recall, you don’t get the item.

But every other midlane starter item costs 1,100 gold, making it much more accessible. Against an opponent who builds Serrated Dirk, Hextech Revolver, or Catalyst of Aeons, a mage building Lost Chapter must save their mana and health to last several more waves than their enemy, who can recall 200 gold early and return to lane with full health and mana and an item.

The ‘spike’ of 10% CDR is just compensation for the general inaccessibility of the item.

TomiMan71 votes

Hexdrinker Gold Cost 1300

And where is the passive shield that you get with the lifesteal and spellwamp once its proced? You did not include that part huh?

Done251 votes

{quoted}

And where is the passive shield that you get with the lifesteal and spellwamp once its proced? You did not include that part huh?

Hex drinker doesn't give vamp, Maw does. The shield is difficult to put a hard value on. It might be fully used, or it might absorb 1 damage. The gold value of regenerated mana was not included the Lost Chapter's value for the same difficult to quantify reason.

TomiMan72 votes

I'm pretty sure that "Not dieing and giving the enemy 300 gold" is way better then "get 20% mana back when i lvl up, even if that mana is like 60 cos i am almost full mana" So yeah they are pretty much even in gold efficency

Pika Fox1 votes

Mages have good harass and waveclear, so you should be up CS over your opponent anyway.

The Beholder1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=wZsfEAAE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-05T13:45:31.806+0000)

Mages have good harass and waveclear, so you should be up CS over your opponent anyway.

Tell that to any mage vs Talon, Zed, Ekko, Yas, Irelia...etc etc

Pika Fox1 votes

I will. I do perfectly fine as lux into them. CSing without running it down into the enemy for a free kill isnt that hard.

Ratpie1 votes

The fastest wave clears I am seeing are by champs that do not even regularly or ever get lost chapter, or are AD champs. I do not see this change as really affecting wave clears in general, only in some specific scenarios.

If it was only casters in mid I could see this, but in certain matchups you sometimes need that passive just to keep up vs some of the other high wave clears that are not gated by mana or CDs. I think it needs to remain an option in some form, although I do agree with the part of your argument that AD champs have an easier power spike than most casters.

Maddened King 1 votes

I personally believe Lost Chapters is fine. Throughout League of Legends, Mages have always had their go to item for Mana sustain. Early in the game it was Mana Manipulator. People then transitioned to Rod of Ages which gave Mana exactly like Lost Chapters does but on top of that, it also gave Health. Players then moved from that to Athene Unholy Grail and then to Morellonomicon and Finally our 3 Lost Chapter Items.

Removing Lost Chapters mana regeneration would IMO just make mages extremely underpowered without any form of compensation. A compensation to removing Lost Chapter would be bolstering the Mid to Late game Mana regeneration significantly or spreading out the Mana Regeneration from Lost Items to multiple items via a MP5 stat which would take too much effort to balance. I think leaving it all on one item is fine and really doesn't need to be changed for now.

Seenan1 votes

What if they moved the 1% mana regen from the mana rune to Lost Chapter? Prob a bad idea, but just a thought.

Ifneth1 votes

Ooooh, I like that. Put it on the finished item, too.

Skias1 votes

I think the problem you would run into is inadvertently making champions with high mana costs like Azir, Anivia etc extremely weak and empowering Akali, Aatrox, Irelia and other virtually resourceless champs.

The crux of the issue with Lost Chapter is, mana intense champions rely on it to even be playable in a meta where games end so quickly and early game decides everything, whereas champions with lower mana cost harass become nigh resourceless.

My opinion is that the abundance of cooldown reduction is what makes it overbearing. It's not the access to mana, it is also how often it is being employed.

Removed haste from the item if anything. But you would definitely have to buff Anivia etc somewhere if they are to remain viable.

If Manaband hadn't gotten nerfed into oblivion, you would be able to remove the level up mana mechanic because mana intense champions could opt into that instead of damage.

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