An AP Ezreal one trick's feedback on the rework, massive post

PotatoMine··9 votes·28,871 views

Hi Riot and League of Legends community,

I’m an AP Ezreal one trick here to provide my thoughts on the new rework. Before we get started, I want to go through who I am.

I’ve been an Ezreal mid AP/Hybrid one trick since season 2. I have thousands of games on Ezreal, and have played him for over half a decade, and float around high plat to low diamond. AP Ezreal is extremely rare, and most people who play him do so in normal games just to have fun blowing people up. They are not genuinely trying to win games in the same way they would be in ranked. I’m a minority inside a minority.

A large reason I’m making this post is because I know just how difficult is is for Riot to actually get feedback on what AP Ezreal players want simply because we are so freaking rare. Well Riot, let’s talk.

First things first, pros and cons of the changes made:

Pro: -More mana -Easier to land E -Kill towers faster -Longer range -Extra AD ratio

Con: -Total Damage down -MUCH harder to use W -Can no longer go through people -Less total damage -Harder to hit back line targets -50% longer cool down -No longer gives attack speed

Neutral or Other: -Builds are a lot different now, many of the old AP builds don’t work anymore but there are also new builds that work a lot better than they used to. -Now AP Ezreal is more of an assassin than a poke mage -Visuals are sexy -Very different core game play loop with W

Let’s start with the single biggest concept we need to make very clear, W is MUCH worse against champions than it was before. This is not a question, it’s a fact. You my dear reader might think something like “But Potato! When I get hit by a Q W now it HURTS!”, or as Riot put it in the patch notes, “it still packs a punch with some AP itemization.” Ya ok. But guess what? It packed MORE of a punch before! AND you did not have the limitation of the mark, which while the mark certainly feels more satisfying, is a massive nerf. Sure right now if I hit someone with a W Q late game I can deal half someone’s health, I’ll feel great and go man that was awesome! But before the mark I did half someone’s health with W Q, actually .2AP ratio more damage, AND if I hit only W I did 25% of their health, while now if I only hit W I deal a massive 0% of their health. Hat’s off to you Riot, you managed to make a nerfed ability feel more satisfying, no joke well done. But that does not change the fact that from damage and usability alone it is much weaker.

Every single time I apply the mark on W I don’t go “man that was great! I got so much damage!” I go “yep, I’m sooooo happy I just had to play much better only to get less damage than before”. And every time I hit a W and don’t get the mark I curse under my breath about how frustrating it is that old W would have not had to deal with that bull.

Then we have the fact that it does not go through champions anymore, this one is actually not a problem until team fights, where it combos with the requirement to proc the Mark to make it insanely difficult to kill anyone in the back line. It’s hard enough just to safely hit tanks with the Mark and proc it, let alone weaving both W AND Q through an entire team fight.

BUT WAIT! THERE’S MORE! It ALSO has a 4 second longer cool down!

So not only does AP Ezreal straight up have less base damage, it has significantly less average damage because it’s significantly harder to actually have the damage be applied, combined with it having significantly less average damage from not being able to hit multiple people, combined with the fact that even when it does deal damage it’s significantly harder to actually have that damage be on the right target(500 damage on a tank means a lot less than 500 damage on an ADC), combined with it just flat out having significantly less DPS from having a 50% longer cool down.

But ya know what? I’m actually fine with all this...if the upsides are worth it. This mark design is extremely satisfying to play with, and solves a lot of design problems. In fact, I made an entire post talking about the mark mechanic before Riot even reviled how the rework works. And while my design has some notable differences, all things considered I like Riot’s design more, mostly because while it’s not as good for AP, Riot’s design works better for AD, and as much as it pains me as a player, the designer in me knows AD deserves the priority.

You can find that here, fair warning it’s long: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/95ucfy/a_massive_design_exploration_of_how_to_rework/

So…..the question is, do the pros outweigh the cons?

Let’s go in order, the single largest buff it would seem was the extra mana. This is great...except for one tiny little problem, I had already solved Ezreal’s mana problems. Sure in theory having more mana is great, but with my old build at every stage in the game I had all the mana I needed.And, my build is actually very light on mana. Since having more mana does not actually make you deal more damage, the extra mana the new W gives is only actually a buff if you can use that mana. So for a highly experienced AP Ezreal player with a build refined to make mana a non-issue on AP Ezreal, the extra mana is not nearly as powerful as it looks on paper. What it does do however is make AP Ezreal much more accessible. 90% of old AP Ezreal builds suck, and they sucked for a lot of reasons, but one of the most common is mana. People either got too much mana or too little, both end up with AP Ezreal being very weak. This is totally fine. A change that makes a champion significantly more accessible without significantly increasing it’s ceiling is fine in my book.

But wait…..something is missing….”Potato, why CAN’T you make use of that extra mana? I mean it’s a CRAP LOAD of mana! Surely that is good for something!” And my dear skeptic, you are right. The mana is really nice, combined with the E target access it makes his lane a good deal more reliable and more powerful over all. But not in quite the ways you might think, because while yes he got more mana, his ability to actually turn that mana into damage is also worse. Think, what does mana get you? More spell casts of course!

But what spells are we actually casting? Q W E R.

-Q is cheap enough that it is rare that you did not have mana to cast it, so you don’t really get to cast that many more Q’s. Having more mana in the system does help, but again, mana can be made to not be a problem for Q spam.

-While W costing less is nice and all, it’s longer cool down and higher difficulty to apply basically makes that a mute point; I actually find myself casing W less often than before. And we need to factor in lost mana when we hit someone with W but don’t get to proc the mark, thus basically losing out on the mana cost(since before we would have gotten the damage, since we hit them). And the fact that I max Q first(as do most people who play AP Ez in ranked at higher elo), so for a large portion of the game W was at 50 mana anyway. And by the time I put points into W I have enough mana to cast W basically as much as I want. Basically, the extra mana does not improve the power of W almost at all.

-R is gated by it’s cool down, not really it’s mana.

-So that just leaves E, which you absolutely do get to cast a lot more. But that’s the whole point of why I’m going through this, when you actually break things down while the extra mana looks like a massive deal on paper, in practice it really only means you get to cast E more often. Sure you certainly do get to cast more Q’s and W’s depending on how you manage your mana, but on the whole the biggest difference is E.

Let’s go ahead and knock out the two other easy ones: The AD ratio and longer range.

The AD ratio is a handy little buff, if you get a Gunblade and Dblade it gives 48*.6 = 29 extra damage, with LB Ezreal’s total AP ratio on his basic abilities is now .3 + .7 + . 75 + .5 = 2.25, 29/2.25 = 12.888 rounded to 13, so I’ll count the AD ratio as worth about 13 extra AP. Not bad. But we also lost .2 total AP ratio, 29/.2 = 145, so we break even at 145AP and while we are here unless I’m mistaken the base damage on W is now 5 higher, so 34/.2 = 170, so we break even at 170AP. So in short the change in ratios mean his early game W has a little more damage, mid game it’s about the same, and late game it’s less. It’s also worth pointing out that .1AP ratio came from Q, which gets cast a lot more often, thus these numbers are actually more forgiving.

Longer range is another case of “it looks good on paper but actually is not that much extra power”. Sure, every now and then you land an extra W, but it’s actually rather rare the extra 150 range is what gave you that extra W, because the most common way you get a long range W is with Q, and a very large portion of the time if you land the W Q, you are within 1000 range, so you would have gotten the W Q anyway. While it certainly does happen, the times you land a max range W Q is dwarfed by the number of times you land a W within it’s old 1000 range but don’t get the damage since you could not follow up. In short, while the range helps a bit, it is not even close to an even trade because you still have to follow up on that W somehow.

The last two targets on our hitlist is the damage to towers and E reliability.

The damage to towers is massive later in the game or even mid game, but so was the extra attack speed. Ya it’s great to do 40%+ of a tower’s health late game with one auto attack, but a lot of that damage is in the Litchbane and base auto attack, and I don’t get to give my teammates pushing with me extra attack speed. Or just extra attack speed for my ADC in the middle of a team fight. AND now people can hide from W by standing behind a tower. Don’t get me wrong, in totally I do think this is a net buff and I do think it’s a good change, but understand just like the mana it’s not as good as it looks at first glance. Also, at a very fundamental level I don’t play AP Ezreal to be good at killing towers, this is not Ziggs, so even if statistically it’s fine it does not reinforce AP Ezreal’s core fantasy. . This leaves the E reliability. It’s a solid buff that constantly lets you land E’s that you would not otherwise get to cast. Combined with the extra mana you get to hit people with a lot more E’s………..in lane. See all it does is make it easier to hit a target hit with W. W is now body blocked by tanks, and what happens in larger fights is the tank body blocks W, then you see the out of position ADC and shift right next to them and BAM! The tank gets the E. This “buff” just bitch slapped you. Sure if you land the W on the ADC you hit them instead, but most of the time if you have a clear shot on the ADC to land the W AND can safely E into them, a skilled Ezreal player is able to hit them with E regardless of the W.

So most of the time W lets you hit people with E is when they are behind minions, and that mostly is in lane. Sure every now and then you get a W on the right target you would not have outside of lane, but as with everything else here it’s not nearly as often as you’d think on paper. Similar to the range increase, it’s rare you get to hit E on someone that you would have not have been able to hit before, outside of lane

So let’s go back to the initial question, do the pros outweigh the cons?

And ya know what? In most cases I’m happy with the changes. I gained a little here, lost a little there. My lane is a lot better now, it takes more skill and attention to assassinate people, but I also have some more tools to make that assassination happen. All in all, in most cases I’m happy to say I consider this about an even trade off.

In most cases.

But most cases is not all cases, because as soon as a team fight rolls around this rework goes to hell.

Let’s take another look at those pros shale we? -More mana -Kill towers faster -Extra AD ratio -Easier to land E -Longer range

So how much power does this add to Ezreal’s team fighting? Well let’s see, more damage to towers? That’s a blank. More mana? Well, I already had plenty of mana before thank you, so that’s also a blank most of the time. That AD ratio is nice….boy do I love 34 extra damage on W, which is likely going to hit a tank! I mean at 350AP, a very reasonable amount of AP to be team fighting with, my W does 500 damage(500 - 255(base damage) = 245, 245/.7 = 350)! That’s what, a 7% damage increase to W(34/500 = .068)! Man, that REALLY makes up for having a 50% longer cool down AND it not hitting multiple targets! My W has longer range too, that way I can hit the ADC in the back but not hit them with a Q as well, who really wants to actually deal damage to people you hit with skill shots? It’s scare tactics that really get’em. And ohh boy, my W goes to whoever I hit W with? ALL THE BETTER TO HIT THE TANK THAT BODY BLOCKED MY W.

To explain it in meme language, this is how I feel about the rework. Imagine I had better editing skills, and had the text “Rework” hover over and follow the guy showing off, and had the text “teamfight” follow the other guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLRvUhyh2ok

Ok, so what next.

It’s not hard to see that AP Ezreal’s team fights are a LOT worse, not only is he a lot worse at killing priority targets since it’s harder to land W, it’s harder for him to kill tanks because his DPS is is lower. AP Ezreal before was certainly not bad at team fighting, but he was no Twitch. He dealt a lot of damage from the back and was very safe, but also did not have the game winning mass CC that a lot of other mages have. Sure he could burst and ADC, but his abilities whenever very prone to being dodge BEFORE the rework and it was hard from him to kill people through a front line BEFORE the rework, and he already had a hard time killing tanks BEFORE the rework. In total, he filled his niche, and while he had some shortcomings he made up for it in other places, mainly safety and range, and I loved him for it. The rework destroys him in team fights, leaving a husk of his former self.

This is however a solvable problem, GIVE ME BACK MY FUCKING .2AP RATIO! But not to W, put it on Q. This helps give back the DPS loss from a longer W cool down, as well as the damage loss from not being able to hit multiple targets. It reinforces AP Ezreal’s identity as a spell-slinger, he can sit at the edge of fights throwing out Q’s, and does not feel as bad if he can’t get W’s on the right target. And it will also help 1 shot caster minions in the mid game. Lastly, it does not affect AD Ezreal at all. If I did not have to worry about AD Ezreal this would be a very different conversation on what to change, but League is not a game of what might have been.

TLDR : I like the rework, but team fighting sucks now. He needs to be buffed, and +.2AP ratio on Q seems like the best option.

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I have more to add to the changing conversation, rather than making new posts I'm adding it here so it's all in the same place. So, "new post":

Title: A Simple yet powerful argument against AP Ezreal's current tower destruction power

Fundamentally, killing towers is not what AP Ezreal's core fantasy is about, put differently, killing towers is not why people play AP Ezreal.

It's like asking the question why do people play Zoe?

Zoe is good at killing towers. She has her passive and like AP Ezreal often gets a Lichbane. But imagine how strange and out of place it would be to say make Zoe's passive deal double damage to towers. Like wtf, that does not even make sense at all! Not only is it busted powerful, killing towers is not why you play Zoe.

Now in AP Ezreal's case it's a little more complicated. AP Ezreal really did need tower threat in the mid and early game, it was a major gap in his power and having mid game tower threat has had extremely healthy impacts on his game-play. The problem is how powerful it is later in the game, because it is limiting Riot's ability to give AP Ezreal what he really wants, in large part because of how it's interacting with double tear build. Fundamentally, the value of each point of AP Ezreal gets is a finite amount. Every "units of point", or UOP, per AP that is put into tower killing must be taken from someplace, and right now he has too much of his UOP per AP tied to tower killing.

Here's the question though, am I personally over valuing the tower destruction power? Well Riot, let's go through some math. Let's compare how much he got per point of AP before the rework with what he get's after the rework. You made the assertion:

"We're avoiding putting more power into AP ratios because we're already seeing the double tear builds be pretty powerful and giving him more value for AP pushes all his builds towards double tear as the way to go, removing variety."

Before the rework, for each 100 points(since it'll make the math look nicer) of AP he got : 40 damage on Q, 80 Damage on W, 75 damage on E, and 90 damage on R.

Now he gets 30 damage on Q, 70 damage on W, 75 damage on E, 90 damage on R, and 70 damage to towers.

There is also Lichbane to consider here, but Riot's assertion was they are worried about double tear Ezreal, who does not often get a Lichbane, and if it does get LB there are significant trade offs. While it's easy to consider Lichbane a given on AP Ezreal, the item is actually only 82% gold efficient without its passive. You pay a lot for that .5AP ratio, in fact while I have not done the math I suspect a Deathcap is actually just straight up better value than LB for double tear. Particularly considering it lets you get a Triforce. So I feel it's justified to not factor in LB.

So ok, 20 less total burst damage? That's not so bad right? Right. It's not that bad, but that's not the problem. The problem is the damage per second per AP. The cool down on W was increased by 50%, does not hit multiple targets, and Q's AP ratio was reduced which as a big impact on DPS. The W effect of the W cool down increase is compounded by Q's 1.5 second reduction. So, let's compare the DPS per AP before vs now, and I'm doing it at 40% CDR since double tear should have 40% CDR. And again using 100AP so it's easier to read.

Let's start with Q, it will have a 2.7 second cool down, before that gave it 14.8 damage per second per AP(40/2.7), while now it has 11.1(30/2.7) DPS_PAP. So it was 33% higher before(14.8/11.1) = 1.33. If you hit Q every time that's a 1.2 second cool down, for 33.3 and 25 respectively.

W is a bit more complicated, it got 4 more seconds to it's base cool down, so before at 40% CDR it's CD was 4.8s(8*.6) and now it's 7.2s(12 * .6), but that's not the real number because in most situations that DPS is important you'll hit at least 1 Q reducing it's CD by 1.5 seconds, so the real CD is 3.3s and 5.7s respectively. Before you got 24.24 DPS_PAP (80/3.3), now you get 12.28 DPS_PAP (70/5.7).

E and R are the same, for my calculations I'll say E has a 6.3 second cool down( 13 *.6 - 1.5), it gives 11.9 DPS_PA. I feel it's fair to not include R in this calculation.

So before you 33.3 + 24.24 + 11.9 = 69.44 DPS_PAP if you landed 1 Q per spell.

Now you get 25 + 12.28 + 11.9 = 49.18 DPS_PAP if you landed 1 Q per spell.

I'll work with these numbers since while there are a lot of different cases depending on how many Q's you land, this is a good average case, particularly considering that E is not normally used on cool down anyway.

69.44/49.18 = 1.411, so you did 141% the damage you deal now before or, said differently you deal 70% of the DPS you did before(49.18/69.44).

And I feel I'm being very nice in my numbers, considering I'm including E at full DPS value. If you just look at the delta in power for Q and W you get:

33.3 + 24.24 = 57.54

25 + 12.28 = 37.28

37.28/57.54 = .647, so you are only dealing 65% the damage you used to on your bread and butter abilities. I should not have to explain to Riot just had large of a difference that makes, particularly in relation to killing tanks.

Lastly, a lot of other changes did get made to W, mana refund, range, does not go through people, having to apply the mark, E priority, no attack speed. The mana refund does not matter to double tear, it already has enough mana. The rest I feel it's fair to say all about balance each other out at a minimum, though from my experience playing so far I actually think the old design was more powerful.

Thus, from the perspective of value per 100 AP we get:

Pro: -70 damage to towers on W cast

Con: -20 less burst -70%ish the DPS we used to have

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

Very interesting, we have 70% the damage we used to for what? Tower damage????

Let me be very clear in the point I'm making, it's NOT if AP Ezreal is more powerful or not. It's directly targeting your assertion of :

"We're avoiding putting more power into AP ratios because we're already seeing the double tear builds be pretty powerful and giving him more value for AP pushes all his builds towards double tear as the way to go, removing variety."

So the question is WHY? Without the tower damage Ezreal scales WORSE with AP than he did before, BY A LOT. That SHOULD mean double tear got a massive nerf.....right? But yet you are scared to put power into double tear, so one of two things is happening:

-You had decided double tear was already a problem before the rework

or

-You are full of shit and being lazy.

Because if you did not consider double tear a problem before, then that means it became a problem with the rework. Because the damage value of AP went down a lot, the only reason it could have become a problem was because of the tower damage. Since killing towers is very much NOT what Ezreal's core fantasy is about, while dealing spell based DPS from the back line IS what Ezreal's core fantasy is about, if tower damage is what created the problem you are just being lazy Riot, and that is not something I say lightly. Imagine if I applied for a game design position at Riot and on the interview I suggested we increase the damage Zoe's passive does to towers, and then nerf her Q damage to compensate. You'd rightfully kick me to the curb.

Thus, you MUST have considered double tear a problem before. I agree, one of the goals for the rework was obviously to let Ezreal to not be forced to build a tear first after all, and if double tear is too good then it strangles out all the hard work you did with the mana return effect. No problem Riot, we cool with that. Your proposal to increase base W damage plays right into that, AP Ezreal needs more power but you can't disrupt the balance of double tear. You need a way to increase AP Ezreal's power without increasing double tears power, and increasing the base damage on W with ranks has some nice implications on AD I'll skip. Good job Riot so far.

Nothing I've said up tell this point should actually be news to you, you are good enough designers that you should have already considered all this. But what I'm doing is isolating the problem that too much of the value Ezreal gets from AP is tied to tower damage, and your proposal to increase W's damage just makes the problem worse. You want to help AP Ezreal? Then fucking help him the right way, don't be lazy. He does not need more burst and tower damage, he needs more DPS. His burst is already really solid, his tower damage is already too high. There is a reason I suggested increasing his Q ratio, while I had considered it's impact on double tear I, not having the data you have, had made the judgement call that it was not a concern. You disagree, and I'll trust you and your access to data.

The correct way to increase AP Ezreal's power is to increase his DPS from Q, but we can't just slap more AP ratio on it like I want to do because of this pesky double tear. So if we want to increase his Q damage we need to shuffle some number in the rest of his kit, namely we need to reduce the amount of tower killing he gets from AP. The simple solution is to lower the AP ratio on W, but then we run the risk of AP Ezreal's W not feeling powerful enough, and that can be helped with increasing the base W damage. The more complicated solution is to lower the damage W does to towers, which has implications on AD.

I could keep going, but I need to eat. You are good enough designers Riot to understand what I'm saying.

Edit: After rereading this, I certainly could have been a little less aggressive in my tone near the end. I'm very passionate about AP Ezreal and just want what is best for him. In many ways I'm frustrated because I feel like I'm talking into a blank void, and while I trust someone from Riot is silently listening to my words, I cannot see what goes on behind the mist. You might have very compelling counter arguments I have not considered, but I am not privy to that information.

Edit, Venting to the void: After playing quite a few games on Ezreal and explicitly paying a lot of attention to the differences increasing W damage per rank would impact them, man(or women), that's a great choice on how to improve his current state. I'm trying to dig to the root of the question, why do I so passionately believe buffs to Q is correct? And the more digging I do the more I realize it's because I'm afraid what I love about AP Ezreal is going to die. I love AP Ezreal because he is safe, because he is a long range threat that I can kit around fights, and I love AP Ezreal because he has an incredibly high level of agency. I won or lost a game based on MY skill because I had the tools needed to deal with any situation. Sure I was not the best DPS around, but I had really good DPS. Sure I did not have the best burst around, but I had burst. Sure I was safe, but if I played too safe I would not apply the pressure I needed to.

The rework has thrown all of that into chaos, and I'm only starting to tame this new beast. Ranting on the forms has in many ways been a way to help me cope with that fear. Since reworked AP Ezreal has had a weak release the uncertainty of if the champion I've played for 7 years and of thousands of hours of my life would survive has been heavy on my mind. What I guess I fear most is not his death, I fear his death through neglect.

For his entire life AP Ezreal has lived in AD's shadow, and many times I have seen Riot make changes to AD with seemingly little respect for AP Ezreal. Adding 40 seconds to his ult without any compensation in patch 6.4 crippled his already weak wave clear for years. Only now with modern improvements to itemization and runes has he recovered. I STILL find myself annoyed when I ult a wave to push and am greeted with 40 extra seconds to wait. Or recently decreeing the damage of level 1 Q by 25 in patch 8.2 with no compensation. I still think of it Every. Single. Game. That nerf destroyed one of the only saving graces to pre-work Ezreal's lane pressure, he had an incredibly powerful level 1 and 2. I was there when Lichban's ratio was getting nerfed, and initially Ezreal was not on the list of people that would get a compensation buff from it. He was added in as seemingly an after though, like ohh ya, AP Ezreal is a thing, sorry we forgot. Ironically ignoring AP Ezreal bit ya in the ass when you made a FUCKING AP SHEEN ITEM and never considered AP Ezreal getting it. Like WTF HOW DID RUNEGLAVE NOT GET TESTED ON AP EZREAl.

And worst of all, I've been around long enough to still freshly feel the betrayal of patch 3.01, in which Ezreal's base move speed was reduced by 5, his passive duration reduced to 5 seconds from 6, and R's damage falloff was increased to 10% per target from 8%. This was not long after patch V1.0.0.154 in which his base attack speed was reduced to .625 from .665, AND not long before on patch V1.0.0.150 W lost the ability to reduce enemy champion attack speed.

In the 3.01 patch notes, this is what you said:

"These changes are a continuation of our earlier effort to carefully scale back some of Ezreal’s excess power. Although these nerfs affect AP Ezreal, right now we’re focused on stabilizing AD Ezreal. After that we’ll assess the state of AP Ezreal."

Source: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3064314

I was ecstatic. I nearly jumped from my chair when I read that. Riot had not forgotten about me! These dark times would pass! Sure AP Ezreal was struggling to survive after all the nerfs to AD, but Riot would come around. And then the next patch came, no buff. Ok ok, I guess they need some more time to make sure things have settled. And then the next patch came. And the next. And the next. AP Ezreal did not receive a buff until patch V4.4, a season later, and only because it was a compensation buff from the nerf to Lichbane, which as mentioned before he only got as an after thought. It took me an hour to find that quote again, and I remembered it almost word for word.

So Riot, you tell me:

"We'd be remiss not to mention AP Ezreal, a playstyle we want to preserve with this update. Though the new Essence Flux plays quite differently than a pass-through skillshot, it still packs a punch with some AP itemization. It also gives AP Ezreal much stronger structure damage as well as more reliability from Arcane Shift"

Sorry if I have a hard time trusting you. My brother already lost his champion, he played pre-rework Kat.

Edit: This is poorly worded, my point is reworks can and do kill play styles, my brother and I both agree new Kat is better designed than old Kat, but that does not change the fact that he does not like to play it anymore.

While the player in me still feels the scars of deeds long past, the designer in me knows you do care. The designer in me understand why AD is more important, and the designer in me most importantly understands the risks buffing AP Ezreal brings. AD Ezreal is already hard enough to keep in check, and at any moment he could flip to AP or Hybrid if it is even slightly over tuned. Just look at double tear which, for the record, I used for YEARS before it become popular(Season 3 I think). Riot, thank you. Thank you for giving AP Ezreal the attention he needs, because a truly lazy designer would have just let him die.

34 Comments

ModKnightsKemplar9 votes

Now hang on.

You're saying the problem is that AP Ezreal used to have AoE, and now he doesn't, and the reward for proccing for W on an enemy is too low. So... what if the detonation was an AoE? To tell you the truth, I thought it was when I first saw the rework, and that would have been super cool imo.

Break that idea down for me.

PotatoMine1 votes

Not only does that require more development time to make the art, it's not the heart of the problem. I'm fine with W not having AOE anymore, it just needs to have enough compensation for that loss in power

Galiö2 votes

I think their compensation was his added siege potential against turrets and injuns as well as making it easy to hit and E even if the enemy in in a tight spot.

But you're right about body blocking being unfortunate. But atleats that gives tanks a way to seem like they draw aggro in an aggro less game (for the most part).

Also when describing your W I think you mean moot point not mute.

Maybe if they increased the AP ratio of W and E by 5% and the ult by 10% it can make the AP build feel better.

Also does his W explosion count as bonus damage for Rageblade? If so that can be a cute part of an AP build.

PotatoMine2 votes

While the tower and objective damage is nice, I don't think it's enough to make up for the loss. If they really wanted they could also lower the AP ratio on W a bit, again, at the end of the day having really high tower killing is not why I play AP Ezreal.

Galiö1 votes

I'm not just saying AP ezreal is more of a siege machine. But I guess your argument is for more of aoe (?) which I wouldnt know how to make him have the aoe and not be too strong. Also again I'd be intrested on how the Rageblade and W interaction works. It may hurt, a lot, if it works.

PotatoMine1 votes

The problem is not the lack of AOE, the problem is the lack of DPS. His total damage output got shit all over, the loss of AOE is just one part of that. That's why I like the Q buff, it increases his DPS a lot without increasing his burst too much. Hell if his burst is too high(I don't think it is, but for the sake of argument lets say it is) then they can just pull AP ratio out of W. That also helps make his W not nuke towers so much, which is not what AP Ezreal is all about.

Galiö1 votes

Well looks like he got some base damage Increased and for next patch he is getting pretty good AP Ratio increase.

Horrah?

PotatoMine1 votes

Ya.....I'd still rather have seen that buff go into Q ratio, but I'll take what I can get. At this I'm going to have to just trust Riot on the double tear problem, as that is why they are not putting it into Q I think. They have a lot more data and insight than I do, it is their day job after all to investigate this stuff.

Eklispe1 votes

Rageblade is for onhit effects, which Ez's w is not. It's a mark on the enemy that explodes when they get hit by an ability or attack. It'd be like a little like triforce or lichbane getting guinsoos, which they don't.

Galiö1 votes

I thought triforce was empowered back when they had devourer, which acted like a stronger version of rageblade when it was fully stacked.

But either way I guess it makes sense that it's not an on hit effect.

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

Hmm. I hear that, but I do worry about giving him too much single target burst potential. Especially giving it back on Q.

Your analysis is great, it just led me to the conclusion that what AP Ez needed was something for teamfights. I think if he gets too much power on single target, that might backfire and over-tune him.

(But I'm not an AP Ezreal player)

PotatoMine1 votes

+.2AP ratio makes him have the same total AP ratio he did before, so I'm not too worried about having too much burst, and I think there is a long way to go before he will be over tuned.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}

+.2AP ratio makes him have the same total AP ratio he did before, so I'm not too worried about having too much burst, and I think there is a long way to go before he will be over tuned.

The same total ratio, yes. But you are moving it to a much more frequent ability, which is a bit problematic. I suspect the reason his Q was taken from 0.4 AP to 0.3 AP is that he was too reliably bursting down targets since, as you mention, he is much more like an assassin now. Putting a higher ratio on his most frequently accessible (and cheapest) form of damage is actually a much larger buff than I think you intend, and drastically increases his solo potential as well as his teamfight potential.

If you want a teamfight focus, it might be interesting to consider options like W marking each champion in a line, or increasing the damage of his ultimate against champions (to prevent giving him too much free waveclear). Those would both impact his burst potential and 1v1 dueling/laning power significantly less than the proposed change.

I also personally think the lessened ability to output fatal damage to a specific target might be intentional, as it helps reinforce him as a spell-spamming mage/carry instead of the "focus down a specific target until dead" gameplay some other carries have. Whether or not this is actually intentional I can't say, but I think it does help him stand out as a strong pick into harassing siege comps and a little bit of a weaker pick when you need to delete a specific target in a straight fight.

PotatoMine1 votes

"The same total ratio, yes. But you are moving it to a much more frequent ability, which is a bit problematic. "

I mean this in the most constructive and respectful way possible, how much experience did you have with AP Ezreal before the rework?

I've very aware that .2AP ratio on Q is a much larger DPS increase than .2 on W, E or R would be, but I also have the luxury of seeing just how much DPS was lost from the W changes. And let me tell ya, it was a LOT.

Not only does it straight up have a 50% longer cool down, a fair amount of the time you don't even get damage from it since you don't apply the mark, and then of course there is not hitting multiple targets.

But what is often overlooked is that increasing the cool down by 4 seconds is actually significantly worse than JUST 50% lower DPS because of how it interacts with Q's 1.5 second cool down reduction on hit. At 45% cool down reduction, which is rather standard for AP Ezreal later in the game, the old cool down on W was 4.4, now at 12 seconds it's 6.6. Here's the deal, 1.5 is 34% of 4.4, but 1.5 is only is only 23% of 6.6. That is a BIG DIFFERENCE. Put a different way, consider if for every cast of W you hit one mystic shot to reduce it's cast time, so at 45% cool down reduction the real cast time of W before was 2.9 and now it's 5.1. 5.1 is 175% the size of 2.9, so, unless I'm derping on the math someplace, the ACTUAL DPS loss from increasing the cool down by 50% is 75% lower! That's BEFORE factoring in the high fail rate on not getting the mark. From my experience I miss the mark 25-50% of the time, so let's use the lower bound and say 25% of the time you don't get the mark. So for every 100 damage per second we had before, we now get 100*(1 - (% decrees from cool down change)*(Hit rate) = **100 * .25 * .75 = 18.75!!!!!!!!!!! **

Say we _generously _ say 25% of W's would hit at least 2 people, that is an extra 25 to the base number.

So if our old W DPS was 125, our new W DPS is 18.17, that is fucking 15% of what it was!

AND THE AP RATIO IS LOWER(though it does have tiny bit higher base damage).

Say we ignore the Q interaction AND we ignore the fact that it can't hit multiple people, that is still 100 * .5 * .75 = 37.5.

So the DPS on W got utterly shit all over, AND Q got an AP ratio nerf on TOP of that.

The exact reason it should go on Q is BECAUSE it's a much more frequent ability, small changes to it's damage have large impacts on his DPS, meaning his total burst can be kept in check while addressing the actual problem of not having enough DPS.

Edit: And don't get me wrong, just because the mathematical DPS got an unholy nerf, mathematical DPS is not everything. Throughout the rest of the game it's not a problem, but in team fights it is. AP Ezreal ALREADY had a hard time dealing with tanks.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}I mean this in the most constructive and respectful way possible, how much experience did you have with AP Ezreal before the rework?

A fairly considerable amount, actually.

I've very aware that .2AP ratio on Q is a much larger DPS increase than .2 on W, E or R would be, but I also have the luxury of seeing just how much DPS was lost from the W changes. And let me tell ya, it was a LOT.

I'm aware it had the potential to be a lot if you could hit multiple targets or were an expert at boosting yourself with Essence Flux. My argument is that that damage should not be applied to Ezreal's most frequent, most reliable, most straight-forward spell. Maximizing W damage previously took positioning, skill, good target alignment, and using your E to offensively position in the line of attack -- things that didn't always occur. Hitting Q is extremely simplistic and versatile in comparison, and it not a place where I think any needed power should be added.

Edit: And don't get me wrong, just because the mathematical DPS got an unholy nerf, mathematical DPS is not everything. Throughout the rest of the game its not a problem, but in team fights it is. AP Ezreal ALREADY had a hard time dealing with tanks.

I'm not really disagreeing with that assessment. I'm simply saying that applying buffs to other parts of his kit or making that power equally tricky to apply well seems a healthier alternative to simply increasing the ratio on his bread-and-butter harass and damage by 66%. By all means buff him if it turns out he needs teamfighting power or tank-busting, but this particular suggested change skews every interaction Ezreal has by vastly pushing his power budget into the most straight-forward application of his most straight-forward, repeatable, and low-cost spell.

PotatoMine1 votes

"skews every interaction Ezreal has by vastly pushing his power budget into the most straight-forward application of his most straight-forward, repeatable, and low-cost spell."

That's what he needs though. He is already fun to play, he just needs the raw numbers to let him actually be played effectively. Additionally I don't agree Q is a less interesting ability than W, sure when you are in a team fight and have a point bank shot it might seem that way, but that is not really looking at the bigger picture.

Edit: Not saying you are not, you clearly understand the depth behind AP Ezreal, but there is plenty of depth in Q as well. I loved old W, but it is gone now.

"Maximizing W damage previously took positioning, skill, good target alignment, and using your E to offensively position in the line of attack -- things that didn't always occur."

To be rather cold, it does not matter what old W did at this point. I agree that before the rework adding AP ratio to his Q would not have been a good idea, but we live in a post rework world, like it or not. (So far I'm on the "not" boat, but that can change if Riot is willing to actually follow through and give AP Ezreal the numbers he needs).

Don't look at what his kit was, rather what it is now. We have 4 spells, we don't want to add ratio to W since that increases his tower killing, and he does not need anymore power in tower killing. in fact I'd LOVE to see that whole section removed in favor of better minion killing, but I don't expect that to happen. I think I'm rather universal in saying killing towers is not why you play AP Ezreal. So W is out, if any thing I'd love to see the AP ratio on W reduced and moved someplace else, which is honestly very sad. E is also not a good place, it already has a high ratio and in order to buff it enough that it mattered much it would give AP Ezreal too much burst particularly with the new W letting you land it over minions. Ult is again not a great place since while you could increase his ult damage, it's already extremely high, and again that does not actually solve the problem. It's the same kind of thing as having tower killing, it's just extra power that does not fit his identity.

If we could change things other than an AP ratio, then we have a lot more options. But changing an AP ratio does not have much or any impact on AD Ezreal, while other changes do. Again, the problem is his raw DPS is too low.

"a healthier alternative to simply increasing the ratio on his bread-and-butter harass and damage by 66%"

Remember, they NERFED Q, it's only a 25% base ratio increase from what it was, and with LB it's only and 11ish% increase. In total it gives him a 1.0 ratio on Q with Lichbane, which while a LOT, they also nerfed his W damage a LOT.

Edit: I was rereading our conversation and wanted to address a point you made a bit ago that I think I did not give enough justice:

"I suspect the reason his Q was taken from 0.4 AP to 0.3 AP is that he was too reliably bursting down targets since, as you mention, he is much more like an assassin now. "

While I've this in different terms, to directly address this, his total burst has gone down, not up, from the rework. On top of that his assassinations are a lot harder to do now as well, so I don't really see how Riot could be fairly worried about the rework making him too reliable at bursting down targets, cause he's a lot worse at it now than he was before.

I believe the reason they are scared to give him the power he needs is because they are scared of his tower pushing potential, a fear I totally understand. I am not faulting Riot for releasing reworked AP Ezreal in a weak state, effects that deal 40% of a towers health late game are kinda scary from a design perspective, particularly when you are working in a space that is not well documented considering how few AP Ezreal players there are compared to AD. I will fault them however if next patch nothing changes.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}> That's what he needs though. He is already fun to play, he just needs the raw numbers to let him actually be played effectively.

I'm not sure I agree there, frankly. Not on the raw numbers part, but on the Q part. There are other places to add numbers for teamfights that don't add a significant damage increase to super-low-cooldown harass. Stick it on the W or E. Make his passive scale better and provide some AP on-hit with each stack. Make it reward repeated Q hits by increasing the damage of a successful hit for X seconds. A blanket increase to his core ability in all cases, however, seems like a mistake -- I know a bit about how Riot tests these things, and I'm confident that the fact that they lowered AP Ezreal's Q damage was an intentional decision based on testing what happened when it wasn't lowered.

Edit: Not saying you are not, you clearly understand the depth behind AP Ezreal, but there is plenty of depth in Q as well. I loved old W, but it is gone now.

Aside from "hit skill shot" and "gain bonuses for hitting skill shot," it feels like this is a bit inaccurate. The Q is ultimately one of the simpler abilities in the game. Hence why I feel the passive could be an interesting space to explore adding power.

To be rather cold, it does not matter what old W did at this point.

It very much does if your argument is "he has lost teamfight potential," given that some of that teamfight potential was skill-locked. Adding in super accessible damage is a potentially dangerous solution, because it affects a lot of cases other than the ones you're talking about where Ezreal is still doing just fine, just as laning or poke trading.

I think I'm rather universal in saying killing towers is not why you play AP Ezreal.

AP Ezreal, perhaps (although with Lichbane he's still good at it), but that change is to help solidify Ezreal's concept as a sieging poke mage or sieging poke carry, and I think it's addition is actually a solid buff to his somewhat unique role.

While I've this in different terms, to directly address this, his total burst has gone down, not up, from the rework.

Total optimal burst, yes, but the ability to more easily focus the E on your primary target while not having to sacrifice a stronger positioning is more valuable than it appears at face value.

PotatoMine1 votes

There is a lot to digest here, and what stood out to me the most was this:

" but that change is to help solidify Ezreal's concept as a sieging poke mage or sieging poke carry,"

Not because I want Ezreal to be a siege mage, rather because it represents the fact that perhaps I need to simply re-conceptualize what AP Ezreal is NOW. I know through and through what AP Ezreal WAS, but as I said before we live in a post rework world now, I might have to adapt or die. This would not be the first time after all.

While we could go back and forth on many of these details, for the sake of having a productive conversation rather than going back and forth about details, let's consider the new post from Riot and how it plays into this:

Edit: Because I know it is rewarding to know, you have certainly shifted my view on multiple points I have not taken the time to type out.

"Now that his update's been out for a little while wanted to share a few thoughts on Ezreal:

His AD build's performing pretty solidly, particularly given the amount his play rate's shot up, which tends to depress performance for a while as less experienced players get on a champ. We estimate that build's in a spot where it's balanced, or possibly slightly strong long term once this players have more experience with the kit changes. His AP by contrast's looking weaker than it was pre update. We're looking at buffing his W rank up damage as a result, given AD Ezreal maxes that last and AP Ezreal maxes it first or second. That will likely be in 8.22. We're avoiding putting more power into AP ratios because we're already seeing the double tear builds be pretty powerful and giving him more value for AP pushes all his builds towards double tear as the way to go, removing variety."

Adding damage to W is actually a really solid idea. Sure it's not what I want, but the designer in me knows this increases his kill threat, poke, lane pressure and works well into Burst AP's play patterns. It does so in a way that has minimal effect on AD, and is over all clean design.

But, we might be able to do a little better.

Consider, what if we made it so W only did half damage to towers? Or perhaps like 75% or something, IDK the exact numbers. If Riot would even be willing to, you could make only the bonus damage from the AP and AD ratio do half damage to towers, but that is unclear and clunky so while it does work, I don't think they will do it. This power could then be moved to another place in his kit that better fits what his fantasy is all about. The argument for it is rather simple, killing towers is not why you play Ezreal, AD or AP, so let's move power out of that aspect of his kit and into what really matters for him.


After writing and then rereading my post I realized I was talking to myself more than you with this section, so I've moved it down as it's not quite as relevant.

So let's say AP ratios are out. Rather than going back and forth about if Q should get extra AP ratio or not, let's consider Riot's proposal to increase the damage on W. To me, this change makes it rather clear that Riot has decided the correct way to play AP Ezreal is Burst AP Ezreal which, as much as I hate to say it, it likely correct.

To back up a step a real quick, for you or anyone who might decide to read this conversation(#LookingAtYouSilentRioter), there are(sorry WHERE, cry a little inside) actually two very very different ways of playing AP Ezreal.

By far the most common was Burst AP, where in short AP Ezreal was played as a burst mage, an assassin. It was nice and all, but it was a mid game house that fell off late game. Then there is Poke AP that is much more consistent, in which AP Ezreal is a long range poke mage and has a much more powerful late game. You give up the powerspike of rushing a Gunblade and instead get an early Lichbane and Deathcap, combined with AP Ezreal's very high AP ratios you'd have #TonsOfDamage at only 2.5 items, and most importantly it could ALWAYS come back. If you just sit and farm you will always have a lot of damage later in the game, it does not matter if you are 0 5, and that is the main reason I played and loved it.

But......as much as it pains me to say it, it was niche. A niche within the niche of AP Ezreal. Meaning while I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world to play AP Ezreal this way consistently, it would not surprise me if the people played my particular brew of AP Ezreal consistently could be counted on your fingers. So fine. Burst AP it is.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}Not because I want Ezreal to be a siege mage, rather because it represents the fact that perhaps I need to simply re-conceptualize what AP Ezreal is NOW. I know through and through what AP Ezreal WAS, but as I said before we live in a post rework world now, I might have to adapt or die. This would not be the first time after all.

I also suspect that part of that is what AP Ezreal was to you. I think to a lot of people he was a spell-sniping poke mage who would help when you had a team pinned under a tower, and this helps capitalize on that, for better or worse.

Adding damage to W is actually a really solid idea. Sure it's not what I want, but the designer in me knows this increases his kill threat, poke, lane pressure and works well into Burst AP's play patterns. It does so in a way that has minimal effect on AD, and is over all clean design.

But, we might be able to do a little better.

Agreed on both points.

Consider, what if we made it so W only did half damage to towers? Or perhaps like 75% or something, IDK the exact numbers. If Riot would even be willing to, you could make only the bonus damage from the AP and AD ratio do half damage to towers, but that is unclear and clunky so while it does work, I don't think they will do it. This power could then be moved to another place in his kit that better fits what his fantasy is all about. The argument for it is rather simple, killing towers is not why you play Ezreal, AD or AP, so let's move power out of that aspect of his kit and into what really matters for him.

I think there's a dangerous counterargument here though, which is that putting power there does help him contribute a lot to a game without having overbearing damage on squishy targets, so you'd have to be careful where you reassign it. It also means that, while it adds counterplay to Ezreal (stay behind a tower or objective and you can dodge his skillshots at the expense of tower health), Ezreal is still able to REALLY make you think about that decision, as he can tear down your tower very quickly if you let him.

But......as much as it pains me to say it, it was niche. A niche within the niche of AP Ezreal. Meaning while I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world to play AP Ezreal this way consistently, it would not surprise me if the people played my particular brew of AP Ezreal consistently could be counted on your fingers. So fine. Burst AP it is.

I actually preferred this method as well when I played him AP, and I'd like for it to still be viable. It's actually one of the reasons that I didn't like the straight-up Q buff, as it basically gives both styles of AP Ezreal a lot of free power. I also think adding strong tower damage TO poke Ez is a good way to make this more threatening, as is forces you to either retreat or engage on him, meaning that he can chunk you down for his team to win the fight you force, or he can quickly tear through your tower if you don't take action or have to retreat. It basically gives him a strong reward for zoning you out and poking you down, albeit making that poke a bit harder to achieve.

The problem, though, is that if you want to buff that playstyle you have to do so in a way that won't heavily increase the power of burst AP Ezreal, harass + burst AP Ezreal, or AD Ezreal. This is why Q damage is probably out -- it increases the chip damage that burst Ezreal can deal, which makes him much more able to burst you after any given number of hits. That, however, is not an especially easy design goal to accomplish without adding more levers into his kit.

PotatoMine1 votes

I need to eat, for now if you are interested I finished an addition to the original post.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}I need to eat, for now if you are interested I finished an addition to the original post.

I'll be honest -- I effectively stopped reading here (or, rather, I continued, but this took all the wind out of my willingness to further discuss the issue):

But yet you are scared to put power into double tear, so one of two things is happening:

-You had decided double tear was already a problem before the rework

or

-You are full of shit and being lazy.

This is not how a good argument is structured or a good point is made. There is a marked tone in your added content that comes across very much as "my way is the only right way, and to disagree means that you're either wrong or full of shit." This refers to the changes you propose, the analysis you make, and the gameplay fantasy you identify, which is not everyone's fantasy even for AP Ezreal.

Further, I still don't agree with the fundamental point: "The correct way to increase AP Ezreal's power is to increase his DPS from Q," for reasons I've stated numerous times. You're welcome to ignore them, but to see you effectively dismissing the arguments I've made wholesale without even addressing them in this addition is odd.

HaIlMonitor2 votes

Hey they took the AOE away from Taliyah, and now she is a meta jg. You never know lol

DerMangoJoghurt6 votes

I think buffing his Q is dangerous territory, since it's a low cooldown, low mana cost ability that allows Ezreal to harass his opponent a lot if they aren't careful with their positioning. You said the rework already improved his laning; improving it more by buffing his Q might make it overbearing. Additionally, even if it's balanced by requiring you to hit two abilities, losing more than half your health to a WQ combo doesn't feel great. A buff to his Q would only make this worse. (We don't want to enter Zoe territory, do we?)

If I understand you correctly some noticeable differences are

  • Less backline access
  • Less damage
  • No longer able to hit multiple targets
  • Overall weaker teamfights

So why not buff his R ap ratio instead? It's most useful in teamfights, won't significantly buff his laning, allows you to hit the backline, still does damage to the front line, and while losing a big chunk of your health to it still doesn't feel great, it's mitigated by it's status as ultimate ability.

PotatoMine1 votes

buffing ult is not a bad idea actually, buffing Q makes the most sense to me still but I also know I'm very close to the situation, making it very hard for me to really know how frustrating he is or will be to play against. I have the perspective of knowing what it was before, so I'm bias in wanting to having it be similar to that. Old AP Ezreal was great at sitting back and just spamming spells, and that is a big reason I loved him.

The problem is it's very difficult to kill people right now in a team fight. Sure I might be able to do some chunks of damage here and there but it's nothing compared to what it used to be, and AP Ezreal was not even the best DPS around before. Buffing ult would not really solve the problem of his core rotation feeling weak, AP Ezreal is a spell slinger, he should be casting lots of spells to kill his targets, he is not Brand who wants to live or die on a single spell rotation.=

oortoomeebreesuu2 votes

I'm super upset abut AP ezreal as well, thankfully somebody else understands because everybody thought I was crazy when I said W was straight gutted. No more lane harass, no more AP ezreal.

PotatoMine1 votes

Well while I agree it's a net negative to a champ that was already below the curve, I actually don't think lane harass is the problem, again it's team fighting. Sure his lane harass is different now, but it's over all better depending on how you build him. I'm holding out tell the next patch or two before I get my pitchfork out. Riot wanted to be very careful, particularly with the massive damage AP now does to towers later in the game.

ƒrostγ2 votes

Well at least he's way hotter now.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Approved.

DerMangoJoghurt1 votes

Now that we know AP Ezreal is getting buffed, what do you think about the changes?

We're looking at buffing his W rank up damage as a result, given AD Ezreal maxes that last and AP Ezreal maxes it first or second. That will likely be in 8.22. We're avoiding putting more power into AP ratios because we're already seeing the double tear builds be pretty powerful and giving him more value for AP pushes all his builds towards double tear as the way to go, removing variety.

Khristophoros1 votes

I want to know what's even the point of having an AP build and an AD build? The gameplay is basically the same. Hit your skillshots for damage. Both builds can use spellblade items to make Q hit harder. The big difference for me is that AD or hybrid builds have access to more utility because Trinity Force scaling is independent of items.

Way way way back in the day there were huge differences in playstyle between the two builds. AD Ezreal had much more single target DPS (his base attack speed and passive were stronger) while AP Ezreal had significantly better AoE potential in teamfights (his ult had a higher AP ratio and less falloff) and he even had a heal scaling off AP. AP build was also way more about burst comparatively due to mechanical differences of spellblade then vs now, Lichbane being stronger, and Trinity Force being weaker. I believe the introduction of Muramana shrunk the gap in burst damage further between the two builds. Also, with this most recent remake to his W, any remaining difference in AoE damage between the builds has been reduced again.

I'm not saying those differences are totally gone, but they have been muted extremely hard since every single nerf over the years actually brought the two builds closer in terms of playstyle and most changes to his items also did that.

The two builds are so homogenized now that I seriously don't understand why somebody would care if AP or AD is the better build. If Riot isn't willing to significantly split the builds in terms of playstyle I just don't see the point.

PotatoMine2 votes

Two points. First, they are very different from each other. Sure on paper they seem similar, but it's similar to old and new Ahri. Before Ahri was an assassin, now she is a kite mage. On paper she still has the same abilities, but in practice she plays a lot differently.

Secondly, and perhaps even more powerful of a point, there simply is no good reason to kill AP Ezreal. The rework is designed in a way that it is great for AD Ezreal, while letting AP Ezreal still be fine. AP Ezreal is not a toxic build, and it's loved by a large number of players. It would just be lazy design to not support it since there is no good reason not to.

Most of the time when a rework kills an off build it is because there was something toxic about that build.

Khristophoros1 votes

I am not saying they should kill the AP build. I'm trying to argue that they need to differentiate the playstyles more before it really matters.

I gave a lot of examples of how the two builds used to be far more different and how those differences have been muted over the years. I don't see how they are significantly different enough to matter right now.

Noxo1 votes

Can we just make his W shred through all enemies and apply marks to all of them? then his ult could nuke all of them down! :D

It shouldn't stop on the first champion hit, it should keep going to its max range before dissipating. I'd like that as a "washed up used to be ezreal one trick" from season 2. And even though it doesn't do any initial damage now, having the W apply the slow from item 3116 again would be nICE as well... so please? but maybe that's asking for too much since his q already applies on hit affects. Actually nvm forget i just asked that.

PotatoMine1 votes

Even if W passing through enemies is better design, that boat has sailed. The art is not made in such a way that it would look right. Even then, skipping a long explanation on why, having it not pass through people is better for AD Ez, which in turn is actually good for AP Ez.

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