Thoughts on Frustrating Abilities: Unbreakable & Windwall

King Braum··28 votes·37,639 views

So I think we can all agree that League of Legends can be a very frustrating game with a big point attributing to this being Frustrating Abilities, and so I'd like to make a series of posts looking at Frustrating Abilities within the game and possible solutions to make them appear more fun, fair and interactive. Please note that while I will be using statistics and information from multiple sources (which for this topic will be cited below), everything within this post will reflect how I personally feel about the state of these abilities and how I believe they could be fixed. I am in no way, shape or form a developer and thus don't want to discourage anyone from joining into the discussion to share how they feel about these abilities, the solutions I bring or how they'd personally handle change if they had the ability to. But with that said, lets get into today's Topic;

Unbreakable and Windwall I think it goes without saying that having an ability eaten up by your opponent is no fun, especially if this comes with vitally no risk or thought other then pressing a button but this is often how people feel when facing off against Bruam's E, Unbreakable, and Yasuo's W, Wind wall. two of League's most iconic defensive Defensive abilities both Unbreakable and Wind Wall have caused plenty of upset with players for their ability to completely negate the effect of projectiles though the latter of the two often causing more of an outcry from the community and this comes from a simple fact. While blocking an ability and especially and ultimate with these abilities feels great, it is incredibly frustrating for those who just wasted their ability only to have it disappear completely with the press of a button.

To combat this the goal for today will be the following

  • Make Unbreakable and especially Wind Wall feel less frustrating to play against
  • Raise the skill cap on both the abilities

It is important to note however that to both Braum and Yasuo, Unbreakable and Wind Wall are essential pieces of their kit and their main defense in fights, thus any changes can not be to the level of a full rework of the ability, and so at its core they'll stay the same. Anyways now that the rules are set, lets get into the abilities.

https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/8.16.1/img/spell/BraumE.png Unbreakable

The lesser evil of the two, Unbreakable works as follows, When E is activated Braum raises a shield in a targeted direction that intercepts any incoming non-turret enemy projectiles and reduces the damage he takes through the shield with the first hit having its damage completely negated and the ability lasting between 3-4 seconds depending on level.

Personally I don't believe this ability needs any large changes as its main ability of blocking out a hit completely can be negated by simply hitting Braum with any ability before using a stronger ability though that doesn't mean I wouldn't change the ability. Personally as a Braum player I find using Unbreakable can be rather unsatisfying and It's duration feeling like a burden unless you're in a larger fight.

To combat this I propose changing this ability as followed.

[E] Unbreakable COOLDOWN: 18 / 16 / 14 / 12 / 10 > 20/ 18 / 16 / 12 / 10 DURATION: 3 / 3.25 / 3.5 / 3.75 / 4 > 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 / 2.75 / 3 DAMAGE REDUCTION: 30 / 32.5 / 35 / 37.5 / 40% Active: When E is activated Braum raises a shield in a targeted direction, that intercepts any incoming none-turret enemy projectiles and reduces the damage he takes through the shield. any incoming none-turret enemy projectile damage for the first 0.5/0.6/0.7/0.8/0.9/1.0 second(s) of activating is negated. Re-casting Unbreakable cancels and starts the cooldown of Unbreakable.

My goal with these changes is to make Unbreakable a more skill reliant ability, rewarding players for timing the ability correctly to block out as much damage as possible while giving your opponent the chance to try and bait out Unbreakable to leave Braum more vulnerable for the following barrage of attacks when he's no longer protected by his immunity.

The toggle mechanic to cancel Unbreakable is to encourage supports to keep track of their opponents abilities and cooldowns, using them to their advantage so they can cancel out of Unbreakable early so it'll be up earlier in the following fight, compared to simply waiting for the ability to end on its own.

Now moving on to the second part of this post,

https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/8.16.1/img/spell/YasuoWMovingWall.png Wind Wall

Easily the more controversial of the two, Wind Wall works as followed Yasuo creates a gust of wind that travels in the target direction over 0.25 seconds to form a wall in front of him. The wall slowly drifts forward 50 units over 3.75 seconds, blocking all enemy projectiles except turret attacks.

When W is cast, Yasuo creates a gust of wind that travels in the target direction over 0.25 seconds to form a wall in front of him. The wall slowly drifts forward 50 units over 3.75 seconds, completely negating any none-turret enemy projectiles. (Wind Wall starts blocking projectiles on-cast even when it hasn't been formed yet)

Easily one of the most frustrating abilities in league, combined with Yasuo's immense speed and mobility, Wind Wall can create a situation where for nearly 4 seconds it becomes nearly impossible to hit him unless you manage to out maneuver him in which case he can still be saved by his flow. and While I dont have a definite answer on how to change this ability for the better here as some ideas on how to potentially make the ability more fair to play against.

[W] Windwall Duration: 4 > 1 second per cost tick. Cost: None > 15 per seconds + 2.5 per second after the initial cast. Active: Yasuo creates a gust of wind that travels in the target direction over 0.25 seconds to form a wall in front of him. The wall slowly drifts forward 50 units over 3.75 seconds, blocking all enemy projectiles except turret attacks. After Windwall has been active for 1 second Yasuo can recast it to deactivate it, ability deactivates automatically if Yasuo runs out of flow.

The goal with this is making Windwall feel more fair and a more skill involved ability. and giving it a risk reward mechanic, Would you rather spend all your flow to block out enemy projectiles for 5 seconds or play it safe and only use half so you still have enough flow to build back to 100 flow for your shield. and though its a small nerf to the champion it shouldn't be to noticable for people who put in the time to master the champion as their mobility will already provide them with flow to sustain the ability and still build their shield in time, though it does prevent Yasuo's from having two layers of Defense up at the same time. meaning ADCs who manage to out maneuver Yasuo from his Windwall don't have to face with the additional shield which should take away from some of the frustration of Windwall.


Anyways, those are just my thoughts on the matter. If you agree of disagree with what I said or if you have a better Idea to help with the frustration of both of these abilities, Make sure to leave it in the comments below.

This was King Braum, and thank you for reading.

Sources used throughout this post: Braum, The League of Legends Wiki Yasuo, The League of Legends Wiki

98 Comments

Infernape47 votes

I personally wouldn't class Braum's Unbreakable as frustrating. It's pretty fair imo. At least he only blocks projectiles from one direction, only completely nullifies ONE projectile and redirects any CC and damage onto himself.

Ariel the Cruel19 votes

I second this.

The problem isn't necessarily the blocking of projectiles (though that is frustrating). When Yasuo uses Windwall competently, it doesn't feel like there are any down sides. It's just a free "negate most threats because reasons." Meanwhile Braum's has counter-play all over the damn place.

It also helps that Braum is a tank built and balanced around that ability. While Yasuo is a physical DPS assassin that gets too negate tons of damage* while exploding people.

Stars Shaper3 votes

This happens because he can move it.

dark100dark1002 votes

I agree. Braum is in a pretty bad shape in soloQ, since regardless of damage reduction, he just looses health to poke and dies at some point. Only coordinated 5 man teams can use him.

Yasuo is the opposite. His wind wall is mostly useless against 5 man teams, but super strong and frustrating in soloQ. It counters any ranged champions, blocks ultimates, and protects a whole team, not just yasuo. This spell should be removed, and replaced by some personal defense. E.g. wind-up: yasuo jumps to the skies and avoids all damage for 1.5 seconds. Basically a free stopwatch effect.

ModCaptainMårvelous16 votes

I don't think using flow to use Windwall is the right way to go about it. It kind of breaks his defensive ability.

What I do think, however, is that Windwall shouldn't instantly come out. The fact that wind-wall is instant means it can be used as a reactionary ability rather than one that needs planning. It also means that most of frustration is baiting Yasuo to use his windwall. In giving it a delay, even as short as one second, you make it harder to react to an ability and rather force you to play around and predict your enemy. It'd still be an extremely strong ability but without the insta-deflect Yas has been (in)famous for.

TheCodeisCupCake13 votes

I used to main Yasuo a year ago so my facts may be incorrect but let me start of by saying, anyone who thinks windwall needs to use flow has no concept of what Yasuo is about. I am not completely onboard for a windwall change but making it cost flow is (with no offense) stupid.

Despite the fact I don't think it needs to be changed (as windwall being annoying does not mean its broken), some changes you could do if you ABSOLUTELY think its necessary are:

  1. Stop it from moving forward, not the biggest change nor nerf but makes it easier to manevour around it.

  2. Make its duration scale as it levels. This is actually a pretty big nerf as ALL Yasuo players (that have over 2 IQ) max wall last as leveling it does nothing but lower its cool down and increase the wall's width. I would make it scale from 1.5 seconds with +0.75-1.25 (numbers to be decided) being added with each level. This makes the ability incredibly strong late game, WHERE IT WILL BE LEVELLED and increases the skill it takes early game to use. This however will result in massive drop in Yasuo ADC's win rate as ranged champions will worry less about it, slight win rate drop mid due to mage abilities being bursty and immediate (as opposed to bot ranged adc's) and near no effect top where champions like Darius Renekton couldn't give two shits. If his win rate drops too much, simply lower walls cool down, INCREASING it with each level. Increasing it may sound stupid but as the wall gets bigger and longer (especially with the fact fights late game can be pretty fast especially with a good initiator like Zac ) it will easily block more projectiles.

King Braum4 votes

I'd like to address that this post is not about Broken of OP abilities, its simply to discuss abilities that cause frustration and possible changes to in whatever way make it less frustrating to play again. with that said, the link between Yasuo's Wind Wall and Flow is simply to prevent Yasuo from having two layers of defense at a time as managing to outmaneuver Yasuo, only to be faced with another shield can be frustrating.

GreatWhiteNorth1 votes

{quoted}

I used to main Yasuo a year ago so my facts may be incorrect but let me start of by saying, anyone who thinks windwall needs to use flow has no concept of what Yasuo is about. I am not completely onboard for a windwall change but making it cost flow is (with no offense) stupid.

Despite the fact I don't think it needs to be changed (as windwall being annoying does not mean its broken), some changes you could do if you ABSOLUTELY think its necessary are:

  1. Stop it from moving forward, not the biggest change nor nerf but makes it easier to manevour around it.

  2. Make its duration scale as it levels. This is actually a pretty big nerf as ALL Yasuo players (that have over 2 IQ) max wall last as leveling it does nothing but lower its cool down and increase the wall's width. I would make it scale from 1.5 seconds with +0.75-1.25 (numbers to be decided) being added with each level. This makes the ability incredibly strong late game, WHERE IT WILL BE LEVELLED and increases the skill it takes early game to use. This however will result in massive drop in Yasuo ADC's win rate as ranged champions will worry less about it, slight win rate drop mid due to mage abilities being bursty and immediate (as opposed to bot ranged adc's) and near no effect top where champions like Darius Renekton couldn't give two shits. If his win rate drops too much, simply lower walls cool down, INCREASING it with each level. Increasing it may sound stupid but as the wall gets bigger and longer (especially with the fact fights late game can be pretty fast especially with a good initiator like Zac ) it will easily block more projectiles.

No, just no.

The way to fix windwall is to have it only block projectiles that touch the windwall. Windwall shouldn't be able to block them long after they have sailed past Yasuo.

That's what is frustrating about windwall, because it isn't intuitive.

DearPear4 votes

{quoted}

I don't think using flow to use Windwall is the right way to go about it. It kind of breaks his defensive ability.

What I do think, however, is that Windwall shouldn't instantly come out. The fact that wind-wall is instant means it can be used as a reactionary ability rather than one that needs planning. It also means that most of frustration is baiting Yasuo to use his windwall. In giving it a delay, even as short as one second, you make it harder to react to an ability and rather force you to play around and predict your enemy. It'd still be an extremely strong ability but without the insta-deflect Yas has been (in)famous for.

It's even more an issue when you consider that it can block projectiles that are already way past it.

Skelenth2 votes

I second this. Using Flow as a ressource is 'uncomfortable' at best.

An idea I had regarding Windwall was to turn it into a charged spell, similar to Vi's or Varus' Q. Charge time would affect duration, so tapping the spell would equal to perhaps 0.5 seconds of duration, whereas charging it to the max would give the 4 seconds we have now, maybe even more. So if you'd need Windwall in a split second, it'll be there for that split second, but it will not warp the teamfight around it. And if you prepare to put down a Windwall to warp the teamfight, the enemy team will be able to see you charging it up and react accordingly.

Modl Ryden l10 votes

I don't get why everyone tries to tie his Flow to his Windwall. Like I don't get the gimmick. On release his W used to have a passive that helped him regenerate his Flow quicker. If you want his Windwall to tie to his Flow then you'd have to bring that passive back.

I was just talking earlier about the fact that his Windwall lasts for 4 seconds. Thematically I don't get how wind can stay tangible that long. I merely suggest that his Windwall duration get nerfed from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. Perhaps also lowering its cooldown slightly in exchange. It's supposed to act like a flashier, fancier spellshield but more 'samurai themed'.

I'm fine with it blocking dire projectiles if it involves status infliction or stuns or an execute or a teammate about to get hooked. But I don't think it should outright prevent players from casting/attack in a fight which tend in to end in seconds.

TheSingularity11 votes

They want to tie his wall to his flow so there is more downtime and so he has to pick between shield and wall

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

But why? Why is it so obscene that he can have both a Windwall and a Shield? The shield, while it may get refreshed in Combat with his Ult (a point of debate one could consider changing), is there mainly to help Yasuo through the laning phase, in a lane mainly dominated by Champions with range or waveclear (mages or assassins), especially since (Feel free to correct me) he was also possibly designed to go Bot, in which to help deal with ranged poke.

The point I take issue with, is that people ignore the fact that squishy-building Melee Carries, have always had two defensive options. Xin has his heal and his newer Ult that makes Ranged pointless for a time being. Yi has his meditate and his Q. Fiora has her passive healing/Ult healing and her Riposte. Tryndamere has his Q and his Ult. Old Aatrox, when he was a Carry, had his heal and his passive.

Squishy Skirmishers have always had multiple defense options, because they're meant to be built squishy and survive as such. None of those other champions, have had to sacrifice one defensive option for another.

And what doesn't Yasuo have that others do? His shield is out of his control, and can be popped early before a fight. He has no on Demand CC, and has to hit 2 Qs before having access to CC or his own Ult during 1v1. He requires a target to dash, unlike Fiora's, Tryndameres, or Old Aatrox's movement (xin doesnt, but that's cause he's more binary, as is Yi). His normally mobile playstyle is offset by the fact his own Ult holds him in place. He doesn't have any healing, so any damage on him sticks, unlike Xin, Tryn, Fiora or Old Aatrox.

So why, does Yasuo need to have to dedicate one defense option, for his other one?

TheSingularity3 votes

But why? Why is it so obscene that he can have both a Windwall and a Shield? The shield, while it may get refreshed in Combat with his Ult (a point of debate one could consider changing), is there mainly to help Yasuo through the laning phase, in a lane mainly dominated by Champions with range or waveclear (mages or assassins), especially since (Feel free to correct me) he was also possibly designed to go Bot, in which to help deal with ranged poke.

Why should he get a shield? He has his E to dodge and he is in the 4th fastest base movement speed category. Why don't most assassins get shields? Most that may have a heal, or a diver/skirmisher with a heal, it generally comes with a cost (eg mana). Flow is barely a resource, it's a cooldown. It doesn't cost the yasuo anything to use it, he just gets a free 100 health shield every 15 seconds

The point I take issue with, is that people ignore the fact that squishy-building Melee Carries, have always had two defensive options. Xin has his heal and his newer Ult that makes Ranged pointless for a time being. Yi has his meditate and his Q. Fiora has her passive healing/Ult healing and her Riposte. Tryndamere has his Q and his Ult. Old Aatrox, when he was a Carry, had his heal and his passive.

Yasuo has his windwall an ultimate level spell that could counter almost every champion kit in the game simultaneously, and an ultimate that allows him to tower-not tower dive, he has a range option that those champions lack. it's the strength of this tool, that is reason to limit it. If it was as thin as his Q tornado, didn't start at his model, didn't last as long or had an ultimate level CD, then sure give him a shield. But it's reliable, has a low CD compared to what it negates and blocks from every angle (unlike say braum)

And what doesn't Yasuo have that others do? His shield is out of his control, and can be popped early before a fight. He has no on Demand CC, and has to hit 2 Qs before having access to CC or his own Ult during 1v1. He requires a target to dash, unlike Fiora's, Tryndameres, or Old Aatrox's movement (xin doesnt, but that's cause he's more binary, as is Yi). His normally mobile playstyle is offset by the fact his own Ult holds him in place. He doesn't have any healing, so any damage on him sticks, unlike Xin, Tryn, Fiora or Old Aatrox.

Yasuo has near infinite mobility in a wave, armour neglecting ult, one of only 2 spells that negate projectiles, a safety net on his R. Saying he "has to hit 2 Qs" is like saying ahri has to land her second Q. If he is close enough to Q twice, he is close enough to hit the third. In lane he can get 3 Q's ez af on minions and that allows him to zone his opponent as long as he holds it. And since he builds plenty of AS, the CD of his Q is extremely small.

So why, does Yasuo need to have to dedicate one defense option, for his other one?

Because of what I said above, BECAUSE THIS ONE OPTION IS SO STRONG! Any damage it negates, is essentially healing yas receives (since he takes no damage, it would be as if he took the dmg and then was instantly healed back to full). Make it like his Q, he shoots a small gust of wind that deflects a single projectile and we allg. But this spell is simply too strong to allow yas to do anything else.

Remove it and he can get dmg buffs, a new sweet spell that better synergises with his kit ect

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Why should Fiora get healing, she has her Q to dodge things? Talk all you want, but Yasuo doesn't use his dash to dodge shit. He uses it to engage and disengage. Assassin's don't have shields, because they have target-less mobility or safer waveclear.


Because Yasuo's Ult sucks by itself. It has more requirements than any other Ultimate in the game, just to be able to use it when in a 1v1 scenario. Even in a teamfight, he's a sitting duck if he ults. If you want to nerf the windwall, go the heck ahead, but don't act like Yasuo 'doesn't deserve two defense' options, because that's how skirmishers are built. With powerful defense in their kit, so they have the ability to stay squishy damage threats.


Wow, near mobility that is limited to only minions and once me. I'm quaking in my boots. I only said hit 2 q's, because that is an actual limiter on his Ult, since it requires 2 Q cds until he can use it. Whether or not it's easy, doesn't matter, that is time where he can't use his ult at all. Guess what? Everyone else can use their ult anytime they want. Yasuo, regardless of how quick his Q CD is, still needs two Qs.


Any damage it negates, is essentially healing yas receives

This is stretching beyond belief. A passive shield vs an ability to heal, it's massively different, because the heal can be used at an objectively best time. Yasuo's shield is entirely dependent on whether or not he takes damage, he has zero control over what it can or can't block. This is the main factor that makes up his shield, it won't always be used optimally. Comparing that to an on-demand heal is a poor comparison.

Yasuo doesn't need damage buffs. He needs his defense options, and him casting Windwall doesn't make him invincible in a teamfight, which is where he needs his passive shield the most, especially when ulting. Why? Because we want him to build squishy, and you do that by giving multiple ways to survive in his kit. Could they be nerfed? Certainly, many have, but don't act like he doesn't deserve two.

King Braum2 votes

The gimmick is to prevent Yasuo from having two layers active at a time as another point of frustration is that managing to outmaneuver Yasuo while he has his Wind Wall up will in most cases mean you'll get to hit his passive shield next, instead of actually being able to do damage, in which time Yasuo can once again hide behind his windwall, making you outmaneuvering him feel unrewarded.

Flashes1 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Ryden l,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=tnjHNo4A,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-08-22T05:37:31.777+0000)

I don't get why everyone tries to tie his Flow to his Windwall. Like I don't get the gimmick. On release his W used to have a passive that helped him regenerate his Flow quicker. If you want his Windwall to tie to his Flow then you'd have to bring that passive back.

I was just talking earlier about the fact that his Windwall lasts for 4 seconds. Thematically I don't get how wind can stay tangible that long. I merely suggest that his Windwall duration get nerfed from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. Perhaps also lowering its cooldown slightly in exchange. It's supposed to act like a flashier, fancier spellshield but more 'samurai themed'.

I'm fine with it blocking dire projectiles if it involves status infliction or stuns or an execute or a teammate about to get hooked. But I don't think it should outright prevent players from casting/attack in a fight which tend in to end in seconds.

I honestly thought that Yasuo's W should either be 1 second in duration, travel the entire distance, and vanish, or last the same duration but have a 0.75 second delay. Having an instant 4 second autoattack reducer is insane.

Of course, for only lasting 1 second, 22 seconds of cd is way too long.

Cotten Eyed Joe5 votes

I'd like to point out that they both only block PROJECTILE BASED ATTACKS. THINGS SUCH AS A VEL'KOZ ULT OR A LUX ULT WILL NOT BE STOPPED. Windwall also has a 25 sec cd i believe. which is pretty long. A lot longer than a lux q or e

Maisanai3 votes

which are both fairly slow and highly telegraphed abilities. Windwall isn't really in a bad spot tbh, just weird that you're complaining about a champ that is struggling in this meta. (Lux)

Cotten Eyed Joe1 votes

Not complaining about lux being strong. I'm trying to explain that windwall isn't as broken and comparing the CD's to a caster as OP believes, the WW completely negates the caster.

King Braum2 votes

Actually the cooldown is 26 / 24 / 22 / 20 / 18 though begins the moment Yasuo casts Wind Wall, meaning it's active downtime is 22 / 20 / 18 / 16 / 14.

Makimoke2 votes

{quoted}

I'd like to point out that they both only block PROJECTILE BASED ATTACKS. THINGS SUCH AS A VEL'KOZ ULT OR A LUX ULT WILL NOT BE STOPPED. Windwall also has a 25 sec cd i believe. which is pretty long. A lot longer than a lux q or e

Wow. 2 Champions Ults countering a single basic ability out of all ranged champs abilities of league (and also Xerath's Q iirc). Totally not unbalanced.

Other champs have these kinds of CD on their basics and still not getting a 4s breather from ANY RANGED THREAT. Even things like Akali's Shroud are subject to skillshots. Even Braum still takes damage/CC from the hits with his shield. Any kind of spellshield disappears after 1 hit( like item 3814 item 3102, Malz/Nocturne's spellshields).

Yasuo's WW can just tank almost every single skillshot, all ranged AA and then block some more FOR THE WHOLE TEAM (and let's not even talk about when you try a teamfight in the jungle/lane only to have him block every single ranged carry/mage with just 1 WW, and you can't do anything about it except retreat).

Cotten Eyed Joe1 votes

Also doesn't block Ziggs ult, Viktor ult, Malzahar ult, Rakan ult, kog ult, annie ult, anivia ult, bard ult, brand ult, cass ult, fiddle ult, karthus ult, all of which are ranged abilities. Need i go on? his WW is not broken. And Braum does not take any dmg from the first thing that hits his shield.

Makimoke2 votes

{quoted}

Also doesn't block Ziggs ult, Viktor ult, Malzahar ult, Rakan ult, kog ult, annie ult, anivia ult, bard ult, brand ult, cass ult, fiddle ult, karthus ult, all of which are ranged abilities. Need i go on? his WW is not broken. And Braum does not take any dmg from the first thing that hits his shield.

Rakan's Ult is a ranged ult? Brand's Ult isn't blocked by WW? [zombie-brand-facepalm]

All alse are either zone ults and, of course, ULTIMATES? To counter a single basic ability? By the time you'll be able to counter one WW, he has the time to cast it 3-4 times and run away when ults like anivia/fiddle are popped (even worse for anivia as she'll just have the zone in, but can't throw anything as the WW is just going to block anything until he dashes away from the zone). Karthus won't pop his ult all willy nilly either, it's a kill secure/teamfight secure button. Wasting it just to deal damage over a WW is stupid at best. Same for Ziggs. Laning Kog vs Yasuo also is kind of a ridiculous idea, it could work if the Kog has perfect spacing, but if Yas catches him just once, lane's over, and most likely the game.

Bard actually works for one reason, it only makes enough time for the WW to disappear. But then again, wasting a 110- CD for a 20-25s CD...

Braum doesn't take damage from the first thing that hits his shield, yep. But every subsequent hits are taken, although with damage reduction. Wind Wall? Just negates everything.

Also, for AAs, yeah, Vel'koz, Rakan, and even Thresh have AAs working on Yasuo, but why would you ever approach Yasuo with Vel'Koz? Rakan and Thresh, sure, but those are supports, and unless Thresh builds ADC, you're not getting anything out of it.

Finally, defensive abilities. Yasuo's dashes is both attack and defense. You can get in, get out if you lay the groundwork carefully, which I can respect. So why does he have 2 other defensive options, in his passive and in his WW, whereas other assassins only have 1 or 2 at best?

Weiner the Pooh5 votes

Braum’s wall is fine. As others have said the fact he takes the hits and that it’s directional with a small hot box make it very easy to play around it.

DuskDaUmbreon5 votes

The problem with making Yasuo's W cost flow is that it completely removes his other defensive ability, as his shield only exists at full flow. That might ultimately result in his W just not being worth using, or just not possible to use (as a single auto would disable the ability for several seconds - Imagine if Jax's E couldn't be used within 10-15 seconds of being hit by an auto!)

This problem, however, could be solved by also reworking his passive, so that the shield itself may be weaker, but will also be consistently up. Think along the lines of Mordekaiser's passive: It's always there, is charged up the same way as it normally is, and decays if you're not doing the thing that charges it. Every hit to Yasuo depletes his flow by the amount of damage taken, it's charged up by moving, and decays down to a certain percent if you're not moving.

At that point, he doesn't completely lose his shield if he wants to use W, and he doesn't lose his W if he gets hit by a single auto or a stray projectile. It also makes his passive a bit better against DoTs (as the shield often expires well before the ability ends), but makes it a bit weaker against burst (due to a smaller shield overall), and ultimately helps the problem of it being a really awesome and strong shield for a second, then gone the next. And, of course, it opens up more opportunities to manipulate his flow meter with his abilities.

King Braum2 votes

I could see something like this working, though it would probably require some number tweaking.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with making Yasuo's W cost flow is that it completely removes his other defensive ability, as his shield only exists at full flow. That might ultimately result in his W just not being worth using, or just not possible to use (as a single auto would disable the ability for several seconds - Imagine if Jax's E couldn't be used within 10-15 seconds of being hit by an auto!)

This problem, however, could be solved by also reworking his passive, so that the shield itself may be weaker, but will also be consistently up. Think along the lines of Mordekaiser's passive: It's always there, is charged up the same way as it normally is, and decays if you're not doing the thing that charges it. Every hit to Yasuo depletes his flow by the amount of damage taken, it's charged up by moving, and decays down to a certain percent if you're not moving.

At that point, he doesn't completely lose his shield if he wants to use W, and he doesn't lose his W if he gets hit by a single auto or a stray projectile. It also makes his passive a bit better against DoTs (as the shield often expires well before the ability ends), but makes it a bit weaker against burst (due to a smaller shield overall), and ultimately helps the problem of it being a really awesome and strong shield for a second, then gone the next. And, of course, it opens up more opportunities to manipulate his flow meter with his abilities.

I mean, we should probably ask ourselves, exactly WHY Yasuo still has a shield on a passive? Yasuo was suppesed to be a groundbreaking new design idea, the solution to the blue whale dilemma of the game designers in the genre (especially in a game like LOL were character are strong but generally don't have EXTREME powers): the existence of a finally viable and hopefully balanced "melee bot laner that can fit in the game instead of a marksmen" type of champion (a thing that they later tried to do with Mordekaiser rework after Yasuo experiment failed)

Yasuo was given the passive shield + the windwall to give him the means to survive what would have been a still obviously difficult for him laning phase against ranged marksmen (early game that was always supposed to be his weakest point), to then allow him to be able to spike super hard in mid game at two items completed with old Infinity Edge + any Zeal item (Statikk Shiv got the nod since it give him some ranged AoE damage) and then try to carry over his obtianed advantage (if he didn't fall too much behind before getting the two items spike) to keep killing people in the late game

As soon as he got his kit adjustements that basically every champ get after release, people saw that he meh at best in bot lane, but he was a freaking monster in mid and top lane if people were able to maximize his kit, and he was one of the bst snowballing champs in the game because of the weapons in his kit, so he has moved definitivley away frombot lane and settled in mid and top lane

After years where he has definitively moved out of the initial idea, and the design experiment to have him in bot lane failed (as well as the next try with Mordekaiser as well), and now that his landscape has also drastically change with marksmen item changes that heavily modified IE and impacted the vital for Yasuo IE+ Statik(or other Zeal item), I think probably we should debate about if his kit needs to be reevaluated as a whole in a minor Gameplay Update, reshaping the way he does damage overall (keeping his current gimmick up, but changing some mechanichs) ggiving him some form of compensation damage wise, but taking away from him at least one of the two defensive tools he has been given when he was supposed to fit in another role, and that are pretty much redundant right now

ModThe Djinn4 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Braum,realm=EUW,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=tnjHNo4A,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-22T02:54:38.323+0000)So I think we can all agree that League of Legends can be a very frustrating game with a big point attributing to this being Frustrating Abilities...

I actually would contest this.

I understand that abilities can be frustrating, but I don't think that's inherently a problem. If you have to make every ability non-frustrating to play against, you end up severally cutting out a lot of potentially neat designs, especially because many frustrating abilities actually HAVE meaningful counterplay. What you've done here doesn't really increase the frustration of these abilities blocking things, but it DOES take a lot of their uniqueness and counterplay out of the picture by tightening up timing windows or, in Yasuo's case, making him feel much clunkier and making his choices all feel worse. I don't think that's beneficial.

Stars Shaper3 votes

I'm just saying that the 2 skills are meant to be used after the opponent projectile has been shot which means that you can't do it with a longer setup than "one botton click" because otherwise they'd just be stupidly uneffective.

That said, both skills also have different downsides:

  • Braum is anyway taking hits after the first, he is meant to do so because he is a tank but its small hitbox and the fact that it doesn't nullify damage is enough of a trade off.

  • Windwall, while a lot wider at later ranks, is stationary and has a huge CD especially if compared to a lot of ultimates that it blocks, the advantage is that Yasuo can play forth and backwards against ppl who won't kite him away from the zone.

Those this make them less frustrating? Probably not, every1 has something that finds really unbearable, for me it's Fizz or the fact that Zed has a potential range that surpasses Xerath's.

King Braum2 votes

I would like to note that Yasuo's cooldown's are deceiving as his cooldown begins when he activates his ability unlike champions such as Braum where the cooldown begins only when Unbreakable ends. so while the cool down goes 26 / 24 / 22 / 20 / 18 while the actual active downtime of Wind Wall is 24 / 20 / 18 / 16 / 14. Which while still a long cooldown at level 1, is fairly reasonable at level 5, being only four seconds longer than Braum's Unbreakable.

Stars Shaper3 votes

On the other hand, Yasuo is more subsceptible to melee initiations than Braum is. You don't want to simply charge against Braum as this is a way to give him a free stun. That and Wind Wall being stationary are enough of a trade off in my opinion.

And you should also consider that Yasuo always levels Wind Wall last (I guess Braum too but Wind Wall has far less uptime at ealry levels).

BigBenClockTower2 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Braum,realm=EUW,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=tnjHNo4A,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-08-22T12:07:02.144+0000)

I would like to note that Yasuo's cooldown's are deceiving as his cooldown begins when he activates his ability unlike champions such as Braum where the cooldown begins only when Unbreakable ends. so while the cool down goes 26 / 24 / 22 / 20 / 18 while the actual active downtime of Wind Wall is 24 / 20 / 18 / 16 / 14. Which while still a long cooldown at level 1, is fairly reasonable at level 5, being only four seconds longer than Braum's Unbreakable.

Just saying, even 14 seconds is a long time to smack someone around a bit with smart play and good positioning.

Hexs Fortune3 votes

I feel it's more ok for braum to have his projectile defying power. Braum is exposed to cc, even when blocking it for others and is fully designed around being a living shield for his team

Yasuo on the other hand is a skirmisher and it feels inappropriate to grant him an arguably stronger wall effect with seemingly no tax on his overall power budget.

I feel Windwall should last about as long as Fiora's parry. Let Yas players keep their "fun" twitch-gameplay projectile nullification, but the wall doesn't need to linger obnoxiously, with no way to interact with it, for as long as it does

Busty Demoness3 votes

If I were to tie Windwall to Flow, I would do one of 2 things in that aspect:

  • Cost a flat 50% of the total, having size scale with rank. Duration cut to a flat 2 seconds.
  • Cost all of his Flow, but extend the size and duration based on % consumed.

It's already been said that Windwall doesn't feel like it's properly valued in his power budget.

Until it comes at an actual cost to Yasuo, it's a broken skill that does far too much for how little effort is required.

FixHealsRemoveGW3 votes

This game is full of frustrating things or there are no frustrating things at all. It just depends on your attitude. Like, somebody can rage about Annie being a noob champion and another player is like "sure whatever, what is your problem?".

And I think if you want to be a really good player you kinda need to get over this hating of certain champions or abilities and just be more objective. Don't be so emotionally affected by the game elements. I mean it's like you are playing chess and you hate the queen for being too mobile or something, well that doesn't help you at all. Then you go to whoever invented chess and tell him that the queen frustrates you. That's a bit ridiculous.

Just accept the rules of the game. That is the first step.

Did you ever think about how much frustration should matter for balancing? Should it matter at all?

Everyone has moments of frustration but I would say you usually get over it and that's part of learning.

You didn't have to explain to everyone what these abilities do. It's ok we know that. But what makes them so special aside of the fact that you are emotionally against them? A lot of champions in league have very clear strengths and weaknesses.

You just named 2 abilities that signify champion strengths and now what?

I think frustration is not a good guide. How do you expect Riot to do their job if players let their frustration take over and just end up hating all kinds of things on champions that are not even overpowered?

Since when is it accepted to use frustration like it was an objective argument? It isn't!

Thanks for this anti yasuo circle jerk ..... PLUS

King Braum2 votes

Pardon?

The point of this post is to minimize frustration, making abilities seem more fair to be used against you while still keeping them satisfying for the user to use. Though my apologies if it came over as a circle jerk.

I think frustration should be accounted for when balancing the game as at it's core League of Legends is still a game and should be enjoyable to play, which is why a lot of the game is actually made around player satisfaction. an example of this being the Three-Hit Passive which takes something as boring as repeatedly auto-attacking something and makes it more satisfying for the user.

I believe the same applies to frustration, where simply putting up a wall or shield can feel boring and frustrating, making the abilities more skill involved can make the ability feel more intuitive and more impressive to play against, so that if you do lose a fight against either one of them it feels less unfair and more like you got outplayed because you can see the effort they put in instead of the ability being cut short to simply pressing a button and stopping all projectiles.

This is also why none of the changes are direct nerfs to the abilities. simply changes that would make the ability either stronger or weaker than its current state based on the skill of the user, through properly timing for Braum and resource management for Yasuo

FixHealsRemoveGW1 votes

You did read my opinion about frustration? Did you?

Feel free to ignore my last sentence if that helps you, consider it an unnecessary conclusion.

What if I don't share your frustration? What if Windwall does not seem unfair to me? What if I don't think that it **feels **boring.

How do you rationalize all that so it becomes an issue that we can actually discuss? For me it's not a problem, no I did not play Yasuo in a VERY long time. I also never ban Yasuo. I don't mind playing against Yasuo, because I firmly believe that whatever strengths Yasuo has , are offset by his weaknesses. Statistics confirm that, he had 47% winrate the last time I checked. I am confident in my ability to deal with a 47% winrate champion and if I fail then I know that I don't have to blame the balance, but either myself or teamplay issues.

King Braum1 votes

Yes I did. in regards to you not sharing in the frustration, that's good. having a neutral stance on an ability is a good thing. if anything you would be a more deciding factor on if any of these changes would be considered valid. how you feel like the changes would affect your standpoint, either positively, negatively or neutral.

balance here is not the issue, its how it feels when you play against these abilities. do you think it create a more interesting dynamic in fights or make things perhaps too hard on the Yasuo player. any opinion is honestly welcomed.

The idea behind this post is that a large amount of players can get frustrated from the mechanics of Wind Wall and Unbreakable, though it is noted that Wind Wall if by far the more controversial one, from there I try to bring a solution to both help people who feel this way while keeping the ability engaging for players and not negatively impact players who feel that the ability is ultimately fine as it is to create something that both people who hate yasuo, people who play yasuo and people who stand neutral can at least to an extend stand behind. (to an extend seeing as its going to be impossible to get everyone to feel the same, some people will blindly follow or hate on things regardless of how things are changed)

Paroe3 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Braum,realm=EUW,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=tnjHNo4A,comment-id=000e000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-22T17:48:04.618+0000)

Wait... People get frustrated over braums wall? The literal best implementation of a tank support ability in the game? Why? Because it intercepts? The damage reduction is only 40%, and its actually needed because youre going to be tanking hits from a lot more sources than you would be normally, especially if the enemy is projectile-heavy. Just giving him a short lived, reactionary defense buff wont help anything.

If you find the damage reduction unfair, why not turn unbreakable into a toggle ability that consumes mana per 10 damage intercepted? Could even give it a gray health mechanic so braum can shrug off that engage/poke a little better.

Popperofski2 votes

Fiora W - Literally negating everything but a summoner spell cast (unless someone can proof she can block ignite / exhaust). Combine that with her extremely oppressive amounts of damage in a lane meant for people who either build a lot of health, or fight a lot, it's awful

Oleandervine2 votes

Braum's Unbreakable is not a problem at all. It does what it does, and it can be frustrating to play against it if he blocks your lynchpin skillshot, but it's very balanced.

Claiming Unbreakable is on the same level as Windwall is like claiming that Hextech Protobelt is cancerous because it allows you to dash away from skill shots, causing them to miss.

King Braum1 votes

I never claim they are on the same level of frustration, I simply put Wind Wall and Unbreakable in the same post seeing as both abilities work similarly, and because Braum is one of the few champions I'm comfortable with knowing enough of to talk about something like this.

Oleandervine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Braum,realm=EUW,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=tnjHNo4A,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2018-08-22T15:11:37.091+0000)

I never claim they are on the same level of frustration, I simply put Wind Wall and Unbreakable in the same post seeing as both abilities work similarly, and because Braum is one of the few champions I'm comfortable with knowing enough of to talk about something like this.

Yeah but Braum blocks only 1 projectile, and reduces damage from the rest. It's not a frustrating ability at all because it has massive outplay potential.

Who Fed Ru2 votes

w8 how does this post have a downvote when downvoting is disabled here?

HalcyonDweller2 votes

For Braum, I honestly don't feel like much change (if any) is needed. But your suggestion for Yasuo is highly welcome, as it creates clearer tradeoffs for both the Yasuo player and his opponent. An opponent who pokes yasuo's flow shield off can make his windwall less effective, and a yasuo player who uses wind wall has to be wary of how much flow they have.

Sire Hippington2 votes

I mostly agree on the braum change, not sure if it would feel good without any damge reduction past the first 0.5-1.0 sec though. Anyway, braums E in it's baseline design is totally fine immo, the only issue it has is that it's uptime is to high, giveing to little room to play around it and find a proper opening. More impact but less duration/uptime certainly is the right way to go about it, makeing it feel good for braum to intercept a strong combo with the W+E combo, but also giving opponents more room to bait it out and then strike duering the downtime.


For Yasuo, i think a flow cost is the absolutly wrong way to go about it, if it's to low it's hardly noticable, it it's noticable it will feel totally shit for yasuo, and quite frankly, sacrificeing defense to gain defense is...fail? It just becomes 'does that skill do more damage than my shield can handle? If Yes cast windwall, else just don't. The main issue with yasuos windwall imo is that it servs two jobs: it's a splitsecond nope because it blocks projectiles from nearly all angles right on cast befor the wall even is formed, and after wards it's a massive zoneing tool that can have huge impact. I think it should be one or the other, either a wall, but with built up so you can't just last sec deny a LB-combo or similar shit, or it should only be that quick 'nope' without beeing a big area denial tool vs projectiles. I personally think it should be reworked into "Gust", delivering a blow of wind in a 150° arc towards target diration, expanding 300-500 range over 0.3sec and elimiateing any projectiles cought in the blow while slowing eneimies chought in it by 90% for 0,25sec A quick reactionary defensive tool would fit his high tempo meleecarry playstyle and be less frustraiting to deal with overall, and it would need more skill to use properly as you could miss projectile if useing it to early or in the wrong direction. Windwall seems like a good supportive skill for an enchanter or warden, maybe even as ult. However, if they keep windwall, it needs to NOT DO ANYTHING UNTILL FULLY FORMED with atleast 0.5 if not more builtup time, and it needs to block directional like braums E rather than blocking anything from any angle if it touches the hitbox. would also be nice if projectile would still have their aoe-impacts against it like vs braum, so a gragas barrle still hits targets close to the wall for example.

Benzaquen2 votes

I think one easy thing that could really help this abilities feel less frustrating is showing the duration of it after being casted. For your team and for the enemy, both could play arround it better. (braum shield, yas windwal)

Shadow Hazard2 votes

A point to bring up for those who are on the side of defending yas. Zed has before had to have a dedicated mini update targeted specifically at making him less annoying. Also recently pointed out the intent of gameplay changes for zoe targeted at making her less annoying that is being worked on right now. So there is complete merit in saying parts of his kit is BS and needs to be shifted around.

I also agree with the idea brought many times of pairing his shield into his windwall together. I think it should work similar to TK's grey health/shield. So while wind wall is off cooldown his shield wont be available. Other points of adjustments that can be worth thinking about can be to find a way to give an item stat scaling to his shield instead of per level, add having moving AND attacking charging up his flow so it charges a little faster than now, make his wind wall block in the same way as now up to a certain amount of damage.

Another point that is complained as a BS point about him is that his ult puts him in the safest point out of towers for tower dives. That is the biggest change that would make people feel not slighted by laning against him. Another thing that can be considered is making able to be CC'd out of his out like WW with his ult after landing.

Again I will reiterate annoyance targeted changes are not wrong points to bring up and even if they result in being a net nerf, balancing can be done after to bring him into a better state after.

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