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Possible fix for the problems of current botlane

D357R0Y3R··37 votes·35,375 views

To begin with for anyone that lives under a rock in the past months, botlane is pretty much dominated atm by anyone that can abuse stormrazor, i've seen for instance doublelift and qtpie chain winning with tristana or doing fine with Jinx despite getting trolled.

https://youtu.be/DIkIm-gySME

The reason is simple, Stormrazor is insanely busted. And riot forced adcs to buy it or lose because the price is 2800 now so if you don't buy it the enemy adc is going to get an insane powerspike before you because no other items cost 2800 gold except zeal items.

let's take a look at rekkles's match history on opgg http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=rekkles https://i.gyazo.com/448317ed33ed332d2c6e1e867c95db4b.png

compare now the win rate of champions that build stormrazor (kai'sa tristana) to champions that do not build it (ashe varus) The only reason that he plays Varus and Ashe so much is because he needs it for the pro scene where Varus is the most picked and banned champion (we will get to that later) because his ult was always a problem there, and Ashe is the hardest counter to Varus in pro where over 22 games she has 63% win rate against him.

And now, there is the "but wait, how are Lucian and Ezreal doing fine without stormrazor" So Ezreal can do fine because he's Ezreal and still is safe against anything, he doesn't do anything and poke with klepto until he gets his powerspike with triforce+muramana. He's getting a vgu so idk what will change. Lucian now, in patch 8.15 he dropped hard in pro play AND in high elo since I didn't see rekkles or doublelift playing him, and qtpie is 2/3 on him. https://i.gyazo.com/36137a8a2bb2ee3f173c97da984ba8d1.png

But we don't balance around pro play right? so Yes i will give you that he does fine in solo queue where there isn't a coordinated environment and players absolutly refuse to play around winning conditions, which means Lucian will destroy them BEFORE they get their winning conditions (aka stormrazor). But as a Lucian main it's not fun, it's not fun to win just because enemies are stupid to not play safe against a 500 range adc with 22 sec cd dash, and then auto lose once they get stormrazor and poke the shit out of you every 2 seconds. So if we nerf stormrazor I would gladly welcome a Lucian nerf if it's necessary just to make botlane more fun than winning against stupid people.

Since Stormrazor isn't going to be deleted by Riot, they need to increase the cost back to 3200 and GIVE US OTHER RUSH OPTIONS

you need to understand something, Stormrazor forces you into a certain playstyle that NOT everyone wants to play. Pigeonholing the adc class into Stormrazor is not fun. and if stormrazor is the only rush options you doom the balance of botlane into failure if there is ONE option there is always going to be imbalance because not every marksman uses it with the same power what do you think? who's going to be stronger between Jinx that can poke you from 700 range with critting 110% ad rockets every few seconds and Xayah that gets a bit more damage on her 525 range autoattack without any AD steroid on it except once every 20 sec. This is why Jhin is dominating bot lane atm.

So my second question: item 3508 can you admit you fucked up? I can't stress so much about how fucking terrible this design is. You ruined essence reaver on Xayah Jhin Ashe Kaisa Sivir just to turn it into a Lucian item. And I will only explain once why: https://i.gyazo.com/774a15eb5b28280e077bbdec2aea8616.png

here is your problem, those caster adcs scale ONLY THANKS TO CRIT, sivir needs crit to scale, ashe needs crit to scale but as if it's not enough you gimicked the item with this essence flare passive, at first I thought it was funny until I realised only Lucian can make use of it. And this is the reality , as it stands now Lucian is the only champion in the game that buys essence reaver constantly, people are going to list some picks like yi or jax but those champions have a minority of games with essence reaver.

item 3095 cost increased from 2800 to 3200 AD increased from 65 to 75

item 3508 Essence flare: cooldown reduction on hit removed, attack speed reduced from 50% to 30% now has also a base stats of 20% attack speed

item 3072 cost reduced to 3500 to 3200 AD reduced from 80 to 70

This solves a lot of issues: the issue of Jhin dominating botlane, the issue of everyone forced to build stormrazor and not holding the same power with it. I would still add two fixes: Jhin passive movement speed should only scale with permanent attack speed (aka not with hail of blades) Varus World patch is going to arrive, and he's going to get the nerf hammer. Varus's problem is that in pro they abuse his ult so hard which has no counterplay, and his E poke that also has no counterplay. They need to nerf his ult projectile speed or range on his ult, give his E a higher delay, and then buff him back for solo queue

the end

40 Comments

Teridax688 votes

My thoughts on this:

  • I agree, both Stormrazor and Essence Reaver are horribly designed. At this point, I'd suggest deleting both of them, as both of them arguably occupy a niche that should not exist in the first place (we don't need more upfront burst, nor do we need Lucian having virtually no cooldowns for a window of time). Marksmen do need more items overall, as well as some better rush choices for sure, but I feel neither Stormrazor nor Essence Reaver satisfy that in a healthy manner, at least not in their current state.
  • I think now is as good a time as any to finally rework crit. Crit as a random chance to deal bonus damage has never really worked out well, as it doesn't feel particularly fair to rely on or play against (you can't really play against RNG). Moreover, there are valid fantasies that could be covered with crit that crit currently just obstructs: critical hits should be about landing exceptional attacks, whether it be lining up a headshot with Caitlyn, or getting that deadly fourth hit in as Jhin. Crits should be specific, predefined attacks that run along predictable rules that can be both exploited and outplayed, and crit itemization should cater to that by making crits even higher moments (and not necessarily just through damage). Crit marksmen should be a subclass of marksmen that rely on those critical hits within their own kits, rather than just marksmen geared towards a certain stat. The basic two stats any marksman should scale with are AD and attack speed (and sometimes CDR), and marksmen shouldn't be made dependent on a third stat just to be able to scale normally. Considering how critical strike chance exists on only one item and its upgrades (i.e. Brawler's Gloves, which builds exclusively into Zeal, which then builds into items with near-identical stats), I think it's become easier than ever before to rework crit, and remove its RNG component once and for all.
  • Side note, I don't think Jhin should gain bonus movement speed from his kit. Jhin was touted as this immobile marksman on release, but in practice he's shown himself to be capable of outrunning opponents and moving quite fast (with the right build, in fact, he becomes The Fast). The end result is that he's a champion with immense range, damage and crowd control, but also a substantial amount of movement speed. Removing this bonus wouldn't completely solve all of his issues, because marksman itemization offers a lot of persistent MS still, but it would allow him to be truly immobile in a vacuum at the very least.
D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

My thoughts on this:

  • I agree, both Stormrazor and Essence Reaver are horribly designed. At this point, I'd suggest deleting both of them, as both of them arguably occupy a niche that should not exist in the first place (we don't need more upfront burst, nor do we need Lucian having virtually no cooldowns for a window of time). Marksmen do need more items overall, as well as some better rush choices for sure, but I feel neither Stormrazor nor Essence Reaver satisfy that in a healthy manner, at least not in their current state.

why remove essence reaver, yes we don't need Lucian to have no cooldowns but Sivir for instance needs old essence reaver, Ashe may work without it but it feels insanely awful, I'm sorry if I make it personal but I can't play her anymore ever since ER is garbage now PLEASE GIVE ME THE OLD ONE or at least a version that can work on Ashe.

  • I think now is as good a time as any to finally rework crit.

I'm ok for this, do anything you want to crit as long as the users can work.

  • Side note, I don't think Jhin should gain bonus movement speed from his kit.

Okay but I'm afraid that would remove a lot of fun from the champion I'm still a Jhin player myself sometimes But if it's the right call then alright.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

why remove essence reaver, yes we don't need Lucian to have no cooldowns but Sivir for instance needs old essence reaver, Ashe may work without it but it feels insanely awful, I'm sorry if I make it personal but I can't play her anymore ever since ER is garbage now PLEASE GIVE ME THE OLD ONE or at least a version that can work on Ashe.

Sure, Essence Reaver in its older form had a niche, albeit a tad too much CDR for one item, and that could perhaps stay. However, the new Essence Reaver shouldn't. In this particular instance, merely reverting the item, and swapping out its crit chance for attack speed or the like, could be the way to go.

{quoted}

I'm ok for this, do anything you want to crit as long as the users can work.

This is the goal, yeah. I think there's a huge amount of potential in selectively enhancing certain autoattacks, which marksmen deserve to capitalize upon, and ideally crit marksmen should feel exceptionally accurate and mechanically skilled, whereas other marksmen should perhaps feel more conditional upon positioning or tactics.

{quoted}

Okay but I'm afraid that would remove a lot of fun from the champion I'm still a Jhin player myself sometimes But if it's the right call then alright.

Fair enough, it's true that movement speed fun feels good to use, and Jhin's already attained meme status with his own. However, I think it's worth bringing up that any mechanic has the potential to be fun to use, but that doesn't mean the mechanic is a good fit for a champion, or all that fun to deal with. If Jhin can be made healthy and still keep his movement speed, then that could be fine, but as it stands, his current high speed is a direct reason for why he's so frustrating to play against.

XeroKimo1 votes

What are your thoughts on creating a true damage build path for adcs. Ideally the set gives lower overall AD compared to crit, somewhere along the lines of 250-300 compared to crit builds averaging around 300-350, but have higher attack speed. Attack speed items would give something like deal 10% total AD as bonus true damage on-attack (think runnans as their bolts are an on-attack effect, not on-hit)

Overall aims to function as a better tank killing build, but not be completely outshown against crit builds in lane, hence dealing bonus true damage over converting true damage, and have crit still be there as an optional, better to kill squishes with, but less effective against tanks.

Teridax682 votes

Personally, I'm not a fan of anti-tank damage, and I'd rather get rid of it entirely. I think marksmen should definitely be able to optimize against tanks, but personally I think that should come from investing heavily into DPS and sustain, rather than true damage. In this respect, higher attack speed would definitely work well for a tank-busting marksman build.

Champion Skin1 votes

The main problem with just giving Marksmen raw damage instead of anti-tank tools is that for their raw damage to punch through tanks fast enough (especially if they focus only on armor and is an armor stacking tank like Malphite) then they would have so much damage that they would kill squishy champions incredibly quickly

item 3047 item 3143 item 3068 item 3110 item 3083 item 3742 310 armor + 2250 HP

Malphite level 18 with stats from the above items would take physical damage to kill (this is counting his +30% armor and +10% health shield but not counting the effects of Ninja Tabi, Frozen Heart, Randuins Omen) 533 armor and 4789.4 hp for a total physical damage needed to kill 6.33 X 4689.4 = **30317 **

(Malphite level 18 without defensive abilities) 410 armor and 4354 hp for a total physical damage needed to kill 5.1 X 4354 = 22205

Azir withitem 3157 **4549 ** which means if it takes 6 seconds to kill Malphite then it would take only 1 seconds (1.23 seconds) to kill Azir (but if you want the tank to die faster then that means that Azir will also die much faster or if you want Azir do die slower then the tank also dies much slower)

Of course if you don't just deal raw damage (the scenario above use 0 armor pen or true damage or such) but have Anti-tank tools then you don't need to deal nearly as much damage to kill the tank without it enabling Marksmen to kill squishy champions so incredibly quickly

Yes it feels bad for Marksmen having to build anti-tank items which doesn't do much against other targets than tanks.... but at the same time it also feels bad for tanks being pushed to build both armor and MR and having to split their stats where only half of it does something (depending on which enemy champion is hitting you unless it is true damage where both armor and MR does nothing)

Sahn Uzal6 votes

I disagree with Stormrazor being horribly designed, I think it was actually a great addition to the game. Especially because it was a decent band-aid for the design issues in Crit itemization.

However, I think reducing it's cost to 2800 gold was a terrible idea

Teridax684 votes

I guess I'm probably just repeating myself here, but I disagree completely on Stormrazor's design. Even Riot has said that they pushed too hard on front-loaded damage, and Stormrazor is one of the major culprits. It's one of the main reasons, along with Duskblade and Statikk Shiv, why AD champions deal far too much burst damage upfront, and its function in relation to Shiv and Duskblade is redundant.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

I mean, when the item was on PBE they said that, if people were to stack it with Duskblade, they'd make those items non-stackable. And IIRC they'll be implementing that? Didn't Meddler mention something of the sort when he talked about Damage creep?

I think it brought plenty of good to the table and if you can simply fix the duskblade stacking issue, there's no reason to remove the item.

Teridax683 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=sfbvmHWd,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2018-08-22T13:27:23.040+0000)

I mean, when the item was on PBE they said that, if people were to stack it with Duskblade, they'd make those items non-stackable. And IIRC they'll be implementing that? Didn't Meddler mention something of the sort when he talked about Damage creep?

They did, but it hasn't been implemented yet, and the item still overlaps with Statikk Shiv's own upfront burst, unless that's being made non-stackable as well (in which case you'd still have two separate marksman items competing for the same niche).

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=sfbvmHWd,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2018-08-22T13:27:23.040+0000)

I think it brought plenty of good to the table and if you can simply fix the duskblade stacking issue, there's no reason to remove the item.

What good did Stormrazor bring, exactly? By your own admission, it is at best a band-aid for a crit rebalance that screwed over marksmen who relied on the stat.

floo4 votes

Jhin hasn't been so oppressive before Stormrazor was released. Deleting that part of his passive because of an item which is pretty good for him just seems unfair imo. Nerf stormrazor instead.

Teridax682 votes

I agree, Stormrazor is what really pushed Jhin over the edge, though to be honest, even before then his bonus movement speed always felt out of place. It wasn't the worst, because Jhin was relatively balanced, even quite weak for some time, but it still made him too difficult to catch at times, and undermined his purported niche as an immobile marksman. If anything, Stormrazor was the catalyst that showed just how inappropriate it is for a champion like Jhin to move really fast.

floo1 votes

The thing is that Jhin is supposed to go in for high damage autos and go out with the resulting ms. You don't have smth like this on any other marksman. Jinx and Sivir as the only ones who have high ms steroids deal constant damage and not in single bursts. I would say this ms, burst, range combo is his niche ^^

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

The thing is that Jhin is supposed to go in for high damage autos and go out with the resulting ms. You don't have smth like this on any other marksman. Jinx and Sivir as the only ones who have high ms steroids deal constant damage and not in single bursts.

Jinx's movement speed is conditional upon getting takedowns and towers, though, it's specifically designed to not be available on-demand. Meanwhile, it is for Jhin, and there are plenty of champions out there who do not rely on bonus movement speed to survive even when going in, e.g. Ashe.

floo1 votes

I know Jinx' passive activates upon takedown, I just said she has a ms steroid. Doesn't change the fact that they have double, if not more as than Jhin. Ashe has a slow on every crit auto or her huge ass aoe W. Meanwhile the only escape tools for Jhin is his thin W which also roots himself (I know it is bugged and all, but you're still able to dodge it) and his E, which enemies can move around if you plant them while disengaging. Otherwise you have to plan the traps beforehand. I'm not saying there are few champs who rely on ms, but imo Jhin shouldn't be one of them.

Champion Skin1 votes

I agree, both Stormrazor and Essence Reaver are horribly designed. At this point, I'd suggest deleting both of them, as both of them arguably occupy a niche that should not exist in the first place (we don't need more upfront burst, nor do we need Lucian having virtually no cooldowns for a window of time). Marksmen do need more items overall, as well as some better rush choices for sure, but I feel neither Stormrazor nor Essence Reaver satisfy that in a healthy manner, at least not in their current state.

I think the idea behind Stormrazor is good The idea of giving ADC's a rush/early game option that doesn't scale well with Crit so building it has an opportunity cost of scaling worse however the execution is terrible and I have my doubts if Riot will ever be able to get it right

As it would need to be an item with a lot of it's power in effects/actives (because ADC stats scale so well) however it at the same time of course can't be too strong early so that it is mandatory to survive lane but then maybe it needs to scale a little (and then push that a little further and the whole point of the item is gone and it ends up always being good)

Spoofghoul1 votes

agreed on the crit part

Though i'm unsure how to make it not random besides every 4th every 3th every other attack kind of system

anyway

I always advocated for on crit effects, you know stuff that isn't damage, effects associated with crit which you can get from items

Like LDR no longer giving plain penetration but making your crits ignore X amount of armor Or applying a bleed effect They could make a target grounded Critical hits in and of themselves could ignore a small amount of armor and do a small amount more damage like ignore 10% armor and deal 25% more damage, this would make crits less loaded and allow for a 50% crit chance item for example along with a decent chunk of AD marksmen would then have a good rush option and more item slots to tweak the rest of their build for more enhanced crits or more raw ad or defensive AD options etc

I always thought of it this way imagine fighting an armored opponent you can hit the armor or you can hit in the gaps between the armor plates Or your opponent is quick so you cut his hamstring nad ground him Or you hit an artery making them bleed

Specific attacks with specific effects to cripple your opponent Can even differentiate between melee and ranged on crit effects through different items

ModWuks6 votes

Approved!

Thefrostyviking3 votes

As someone who has been playing a lot of Ashe recently i truly agree, stormrazor is much too cheap.

Unless i force my opponent to stay for ages post when they should have recalled to finish it while i desperately gather gold for my item 3153 then its really miserable to try and lane against it, and basically every single matchup i have except Ezreal will always get it.

Its not laning against a champion or two, its about laning against a item, it completely takes over and i feel that even if they wanted to make it a bit cheaper they could just have dropped it at 3k flat and been done with it.

Now for my Ashe to win lane i have to forcefully extend lane until i get botrk then go all in as quickly as possible and force a extended trade to either kill them to chase them out of lane right away, otherwise i´ll get poked down quicker than i can heal up and i also run the risk of exploding in 2 seconds if they get to do a engage of choice.

Then i have to end the game before they can have a shot at recovery because when they get some crit and AD i will explode in 2 hits and will never be able to fight again.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Death's Dance should get similar treatment to BT, so the item doesn't overtake it in slot efficiency.

As for Stormrazor, remove the crit and give it an AD ratio so Jinx doesn't break it. As for Jhin, reduce his AS to MS ratio so he can't abuse Hail of Blades with this.

Shinovar2 votes

item 3095 2800g 65ad 25as (+60% dmg on first attack) item 1038 item 1037 item 1042 item 1042 2775g 65ad 24as (no effect)

now we clearly see how at the same cost we get the same stats. going stormrazor also gives the passive (powerspike), so one would expect the crit build will be better soon after.

3425g later crit build looks like this (ignoring shoes) item 3031 item 3094

for the same gold, stormrazor build is this one (no shoes again) item 3095 item 3094 +625g (24% as?)

critbuild is: 70ad 30as 60cc (10% of crits ignores armor = 3% dps increase) >>> [~5500 gold value dps] stormbuild is: 65ad 79as 30cc (+70cc on first hit) >>> [~5400 gold value dps]

the difference is not that much, considered stormrazor gave a good powerspike quite early, the crit build is only good once completed the second zeal item (might be wrong, read the post scrittum at the end of the comment). games just don't last enough for a crit build to be worth. riot could simply make games longer by buffing towers and preventing snowball. still, the real problem of stormrazor is that even though it's well balanced as an item, it can be abused by some champions. mostly jhin. i don't see how riot can prevent this. nerf stormrazor? it will be useless and only built by him (ok for balancing, bad for game design). buff crits? same result. there shouldn't be too specific items, since they will be abusable by few champions. if stormrazor is thought to be a poke adc item, just add a damn cooldown. like 8 seconds cooldown. or make it an energized effect.

[sg-janna]

ps: even at 3 items, critbuild isn't that much better item 3031 item 3094 item 3087 70ad 65as 100cc (10% converted in true damage) item 3095 item 3094 item 3031 135ad 90as 60cc (+40cc on first hit) both builds cost 9000g. it's late night and i might be wrong, but i see the stormrazor build to be better even now, on a level 14 caitlyn. this might be for the wasted 20% crit on the crit build, exceeding 100%.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

Surely botrk is intended to be the other rush option

Alzon1 votes

Remember the days when every ADC rushed Bork? Silly how it was cast aside after such a minor nerf... oh wait, its cost was increased, too. Easy fix: bring Bork in line as a rush item alongside Stormrazor by equalizing their gold value.

DragonIgnis2 votes

Rush options are something Riot should definitely look at. It's dumb how Stormrazor is the rush item.

Essence flare: cooldown reduction on hit removed, attack speed reduced from 50% to 30% now has also a base stats of 20% attack speed

I thought you were going to suggest that Riot add crit back at first. This change seems good but it doesn't address how niche Essence Reaver is. With only this change, Essence Reaver would mostly be a stat stick.

I think the biggest problem with Essence Reaver is that Essence Flare is too awkward to activate. Relatively few marksmen have ults that are optimal for an all in. Ashe ult is meant to be used from far away and Xayah ult is supposed to be used defensively.

In addition to transferring some attack speed from the passive, the passive condition should be changed to something like 4 attacks toward one enemy champion. This synergizes with the attack speed and mana restore. 4 attacks is also better associated with an all in than using the ult. It shouldn't be 3 attacks because then it'd activate on accident when using press the attack or on small trades. Abilities can count toward activating the passive so slow attacking champs like Jhin can still use it.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

the thing is riot wants crit items to be a bad rush, which is why they removed it from IE and zeal items are terrible on their own, there is stormrazor but it only gives crit on a single attack

I would love to have crit on essence reaver I just don't know if riot would agree

Aptest2 votes

At the risk of repeating and agreeing with Teridax68:

Stormrazor is a bad item. It should not exist, and it should be either nerfed into non-viability or preferably outright removed.

Why is this so?

Storm razor is an item for AA based champions, which grants front-loaded damage. Also, it grants good kiting potential.

Why is front loaded damage, specifically for AA based champions, and specifically when coupled with kiting boost, bad?

AA based champions are inherently DPS-y. They have a large amount of sustained damage, and as such they occupy the niche of tank busting. Also, due to their range, they offer the quality of reliable damage projection into skirmishes. The end result is a "tax the opponent when he is in range and put him on a timer to kill me" quality, which all ADCs share.

The counter to the "tax you if you are in range" quality of ADCs is to reach them, stick to them, and outpace their damage in the short run. The relatively lower levels of ADC DPS and lower levels of ADC mobility allow this outplay mechanic to exist.

By frontloading ADC damage and giving them extra kiting tools for the moment of initial engagement (when they are being engaged on), storm razor impedes on the natural counter mechanics of ADC damage patterns. This impedes on the idea that character (archtypes) should have clear and exploitable disadvantages, by essentially allowing the ADC players to build out of their class disadvantage.

This is especially important, because the whole ADC crit rework was done due to ADC damage output being very bursty against squishy targets as a result of the need to scale is sufficiently against tanks. So, on the background of ADCs having too much burst, the class is nerfed through both changes to the entire cast of characters AND the entire old item line, but the new introduced items re-introduce exactly the qualities which were intended to be removed through the previous re-work? seems like a serious error in design.

TL;DR: remove Stormrazor

Dog of Pavlov1 votes

With those ER changes, need to add some innate CDR then. Being able to get 30% CDR from it (from what I remember) was busted... maybe bringing it back to 20% base instead of 10% scaling up to 30% with crit would be a better middle ground.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

I don't intend to change the CDR, it would be 20% just like now

TeCoolMage1 votes

They should just fix Crit to stop Crit users from being right click machines :s Xayah’s E Crit scaling is a very good example of a possible way to fix Crit

That way items like stormrazor that buff autos are not as strong because the ADC has a lot of their damage moved into abilities

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

Remove Stormrazor.

Revert Essence Reaver.

Bloodthirster is fine.

Tetsip1 votes

Stop using youtube videos of a single game, and snapshots of pro players over a very small number of games as "proof" of your claim. I don't think stormrazor is actually that strong just based on experience, but if you could ACTUALLY find numbers that had anything to do with whether or not stormrazor was broken or not, then it would be worth discussing. Rekkles recent match history is irrelevant, you have no idea how those games went, and even his jhin which is a strong stormrazor user is at 49% win rate overall, so that does not support your claim. Don't confuse that if those numbers did reflect your argument however, that that would prove anything... because thats not how numbers work :X

Thing about stormrazor is that it needed to exist after the I.E change, and people WANTED the I.E change because its what cut down the adc's "burst" damage against squishies.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

I see, so how about stats? Jinx atm has 53% win rate and 15% pick rate

?

Do you see this difference between this and Tristana that has 48% win rate and 6% pick rate? that difference is because one is innertly stronger with stormrazor which allows her to poke from 700 range with critting aoe rockets while the other one has a 525 base range that scales with lvls and has no AD steroid attached to autoattacks.

Tetsip2 votes

Your interpretation of those numbers is... interesting lol.

Both champions use the same item but one has a good win rate and one has a bad... so you blame the item being OP?

Ever think maybe jinx is just better than trist in the current meta... and that this has nothing to do with stormrazor. And while we're at it, that there are high win rate adc's that don't use stormrazor at all, while tristana does... kinda disproves everything you're trying to say.

OtterlyLost1 votes

{quoted}

Your interpretation of those numbers is... interesting lol.

Both champions use the same item but one has a good win rate and one has a bad... so you blame the item being OP?

Ever think maybe jinx is just better than trist in the current meta... and that this has nothing to do with stormrazor. And while we're at it, that there are high win rate adc's that don't use stormrazor at all, while tristana does... kinda disproves everything you're trying to say.

The difference between Jinx and Tristana in the current meta is that Jinx was buffed specifically to synergize better with Stormrazor while Tristana was kind of left in the dirt. That may be the argument that he's trying to make. Why he brings Tristana up at all in his post, however, I don't know. The only people really winning with any regularity with Tristana are 1-tricks and pro ADC mains in Soloqueue. He brings up Rekkles but Rekkles is the closest you can get to a Tristana OTP who is also a Pro.

I don't think Stormrazor is broken, however. I feel its an inherently flawed item that needs a more than just a cost lowering and an item build change; it honestly needs a revamp to be more DPS oriented than burst oriented.

Tetsip1 votes

It isn't really burst oriented though. A crit on your first auto that could have crit anyways is not that big of a deal. I think the movement speed attached to the proc is more useful than the crit. RFC and statik both give a bigger burst but no one is talking about them.

Fk I think if botrk were a more recent item people would be losing their shit about it to. Holy fuck this item gives sustain, attack speed, AD, makes your attacks scale with the person your hittings health AND HAS AN ACTIVE THAT SLOWS AND DEALS DAMAGE, riot you done lost your minds. But that items been around for abit so no ones bitching about it. And alot of champs that rush it instead of stormrazor are doing just fine.

OtterlyLost1 votes

{quoted}

It isn't really burst oriented though. A crit on your first auto that could have crit anyways is not that big of a deal. I think the movement speed attached to the proc is more useful than the crit. RFC and statik both give a bigger burst but no one is talking about them.

Fk I think if botrk were a more recent item people would be losing their shit about it to. Holy fuck this item gives sustain, attack speed, AD, makes your attacks scale with the person your hittings health AND HAS AN ACTIVE THAT SLOWS AND DEALS DAMAGE, riot you done lost your minds. But that items been around for abit so no ones bitching about it. And alot of champs that rush it instead of stormrazor are doing just fine.

Its pretty burst oriented. If it was more aligned with being a DPS item, it would be closer to what RFC and Shiv are in that they don't reward you for just standing around doing nothing for a few seconds without attacking. Instead, it should be rewarding the champions in question for continually AA'ing. I would be fine with them making the crit on it smaller if it actually charged for AA'ing.

OtterlyLost1 votes

As a tristana main, I'm not chain winning off of abusing StormRazor. I dont feel it synergizes particularly well with Tristana and anyone who builds it on her is just doing so out of a lack of other options. I'm getting more success out of a BF and Pick into Zeal into IE rush as the early AD means she can easily all in and be aggressive in laning phase, where she wants to snowball to avoid her devastating midgame power trough.

The primary abusers of stormrazor I have seen are Jinx(whom they specifically buffed in order to make it better on her), Draven, and Jhin. And its honestly a problem of the item being poorly designed for ADCs. Why would you release an item that rewards you for not AAing for a period of time instead of making it so the crit is smaller but charged up by consistent AAing?

Alzon1 votes

The Lost Chapter and its triple upgrade path did wonders for mid lane diversity. Junglers have their smite item + enchantment as well. Assassins have the Serrated Dirk upgrades. Supports have... an odd quest for vision, reachable by three different paths. Bruisers get two Phage upgrades, and two Tiamat upgrades. Tanks get the bottom of the barrel as usual, but what’s surprising is how the similar “standard rush component with completed item options” for marksmen... isn’t a rush item at all. Zeal is pretty darn suboptimal as a first-back buy.

Now, I’m usually pretty against the whole “marksmen should have x” concept, but I do believe there should be a standard rush component for the class that branches into a variety of completed items. Possibly a Vampiric Scepter or Bilgewater Cutlass rework, since the goal of a marksman is to farm safely and scale up, with lifesteal being assigned to a named unique passive on most items (Death’s Dance and Gunblade being possible outliers) to prevent spamming, like the Haste passive on The Lost Chapter.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

All this talk about ADC vs ADC. I guess the whole diversity for botlane and actually have ADCs be balanced got thrown out the window in favor of ADCs being perma busted again... just so long as all/most ADCs get to be busted.

Pianoasis1 votes

bump

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