Let's discuss the role-confusion that divers are facing

Koechophe·8/24/2018, 4:21:34 AM·21 votes·30,485 views

Preface A diver is someone who is somewhere between an assassin and a juggernaut. They are meant to be able to dive onto the target and pressure them in teamfights, either forcing the target out or forcing retaliation. They are meant to be balanced with damage and tankiness, and generally require highly reliable kits in order to perform their function correctly.

Core aspects of a diver include:

  1. Reliable gap closer
  2. Innate tankiness or defensive steriod
  3. CC
  4. Reasonable up-front and sustained damage
  5. Relatively few reliable escape mechanisms (in most cases)

Some classic examples of champions who could be played as or considered divers include: JarvanIV MonkeyKing Diana Hecarim Kled Renekton XinZhao VolibearSkarner Shyvana Pantheon Irelia Udyr Vi Elise Rengar Nocturne

Many of these champs, depending on how they're built, could also be lumped into other categories. I'm not here to have an in-depth debate over who is and isn't a diver, I merely put this list here to serve as a basis for people who are unfamiliar with the role.

Current Meta

Many of these champions have had their struggles in viability from time to time. In the recent meta, a few (Wukong, Pantheon, Xin Zhao, etc) have found viability by completely ignoring tanky builds, and instead pumping as much damage into their kits as possible. They instead become semi-squishy assassins who frontload damage onto the target. When divers are instead played as assassins, this creates major problems for the health of the game.

Problems

  1. Feast of Famine play patterns. Because a Diver generally lacks a strong escape mechanism, they are unable to flit in and out of fights like assassins and pick up kills. They also lack strong utility, and generally require close range to accomplish their goal. This means that unless the diver gets fed early, they will likely get blown up in fights. If they get fed, however, they have extreme high points, often feeling tanky because of their innate defensive steroids, and blasting through targets quickly. This is exacerbated in lower elos and with less team cooridnation, making them extremely effective pubstompers, but inneffective elsewhere.

  2. Lack of meaningful counterplay Unlike assassins, who are (theoretically) built on having required skill shots and kits which you are able to play around (I do not want to discuss assassins in this post, but that is the intended play pattern for them), Divers are instead built around having extremely reliable damage. A classic example is Wukong. Nothing in his kit is a skill shot, or has any reasonable chance of being avoided. E + Q + R is all point blank lock on damage. The same is true of Nocturne, he will unload his damage and there is little you can do to prevent it.

The lever which is supposed to keep this in check is that Divers are not meant to be able to 100/0 targets quickly. They are supposed to build tankier and go for more sustained damage patterns, with initial burst which can make them a damage threat. However, because so much of the damage is disconnected from the kits (Stormrazor/Duskblade/Electrocute), their reliability is unchecked, and playing against an assassin-build diver is extremely frustrating, particularly if they get fed in a different lane.

  1. Suicide-bomb syndrome This is perhaps the greatest issue. Divers are not meant to flit in and out of the fight. They are meant to dive in and be a continual damage threat. However, because they are building glass cannon builds, they more frequently end up diving in and either dying, or blowing up any number of targets and then dying.

Assassins are balanced around being able to go in and out of fights (riot has clearly stated as much). This is actually healthy; it means they are able to unload damage and then leave, and do it again. It creates a more consistent and balancable playstyle. Divers, on the other hand (unless grossly fed and with a lot of lifesteal) will dive in and almost always end up dead, but if they're fed, they'll take a few people with them. Being a walking suicide bomb is extremely unfun for the person doing it, and for the other team; you know you'll lose people to the diver even if you blow them up.

Case examples A few people demonstrate this problem painfully well:

  1. Rengar Though he's almost always been played as an assassin, Rengar's kit was built to be a diver. He's listed as a Diver riot's page, and he has all the classic examples of it in his kit. He perfectly exacerbates all of these issues. From a skill standpoint, none of rengar's burst is avoidable. He ults, then jumps on you and kills you in under a second. The attack speed from his Q is entirely superfluous. He also has no reliable way out of the fight. Once he jumps in, he either kills everyone or dies very quickly. He's complained about constantly even if he's weak, because his kit has all of the above problems.
  2. Nocturne Again, same issues. Nocturne has got a lot of attention recently because his ult + Q + AA combo kills people almost instantly and cannot be avoided. All of the above issues are in place: when he's fed, he's a nightmare, when he's behind, he's non-existant.
  3. Diana She's a more interesting one, because she (theoretically) requires you to land a Q, but she's gotten some attention recently for her burst. Diana has the kit of a diver, but has been played as an assassin for a long while now (ap bruisers suffer in being able to itemize effectively). Her kit suffers immensiely from these issues, with frontloaded burst and inability to escape, a fed diana is a nightmare of resetting Rs that doesn't even need to land the initial Q to kill, and an underfed one is borderline useless. These issues crop up in almost every Diver on that list, because it is unhealthy to have reliable frontloaded damage mingled with innert tankiness and an inability to escape.

Possible solutions: (Tank itemization/masteries is a seperate issue. Though it would help immensely if tank options were more viable, I won't go into that in this thread)

  1. Transition dedicated Divers to gradual damage rather than frontloaded burst. This would solve a lot of issues currently plaguing the diver class. Imagine, for a moment, if it took Rengar more than .7 seconds to kill? Or if Diana actually had to make use of her passive in order to burst someone down? Fighters would need strength elsewhere in their kit (perhaps more tankiness and greater ability to stick to their targets) but in order for them to fulfill their role in a meaningful and healthy way, they can't be able to burst targets down quickly.
  2. Rework certain divers into assassins. While some champions are built around the idea that they can be divers, many have been played exlusively as assassins since their conception. With Rengar, for example, there was extreme backlash whenever riot has tried to transition him into more damage over time with tanky builds, even though objectively, that is a healthier approach. If this is the case for a particular diver, the better solution might be to embrace the assassin aspect and give the diver the tools to be a successful assassin.
  3. Provide better itemization for AP bruisers While relatively few divers are AP, this is essential for them to be able to operate. Diana, for instance, just can't get to the level of tankiness of most bruisers because ap itemization doesn't allow her to. The same applies to Elise, whose base damages are harsh enough that she has to build damage to stay meaningful, but doesn't have the tools to both get in and get out of a fight.

Conclusion I believe a some of the major game-health issues in champions hang on this issue. Divers have struggled to find a space, so they are now built as assassins, which creates toxic and unfun play patterns. If Divers were balanced around consistent damage and threat with survivability, it would not only give them a more clear direction, it would make them more valuable in higher levels of the game and more enjoyable to play as and against.

45 Comments

Sharpest glasses8/24/2018, 3:12:03 PM8 votes

Its simple, Divers were planned for a classe rework. Thats the issue, they're outdated.

Ifneth8/24/2018, 4:26:24 PM6 votes

I like your suggestions. Here are some mechanical ideas to make them happen.

Health balancing. If we want Divers to build AD-HP items like Titanic Hydra or Sterak’s Gage, rather than stacking burst with Duskblade, Stormrazor, and Shiv, then we should consider rewarding them for building HP and punish them for not.

-%Missing Health sustain -Lower Base Health growth -Lower Base Armor and Magic Resistance -Higher Base Armor and Magic Resistance growth

Burst Limitation. A caster who kills targets quickly at close range is a Slayer, rather than a Diver. We should reduce the AD and AP ratios on the class’ burst abilities to encourage them to stick around for basic attacks, while increasing their base damage growth to compensate.

-%Health Damage added or increased -Lower ability damage ratios -Higher ability base damage growth per rank -Higher Base Attack Damage growth

HeazonZ8/25/2018, 7:50:46 AM3 votes

One of my biggest problems with RekSai is that she’s 100% a diver, but lacks the innate tankiness or defensive steroid that is such a core aspect of being one. On top of that, her base stats are trash so she has to build damage to be useful.

Paroe8/25/2018, 2:12:25 AM2 votes

Im not sure if its been mentioned - but the premise of Divers being "halfway between assassins and juggernauts" is flat wrong. Divers are champions with an assassination pattern (when built like an assassin they can assassinate the same way a true assassin does) but lack the hyper mobility of a true assassin. Hyper mobility is having a get in/get out, or at least two forms of instant mobility.

None of the suggestions actually tackle the root problem of divers, and focus on superficial solutions that treat the symtpoms. The problem with divers is a lot less them being a mix of two classes, and more the fact that bruisers, the group of which all divers except Diana and kassadin belong to, are everything a tank is while being everything a fighter is. Divers being capable of Kamikaze assassination isnt a bad thing, its when they also get tanky to boot that you run into severe balance problems.

XeroKimo8/24/2018, 5:35:42 PM1 votes

Oof this was going to be my topic next week

AirKingNeo8/25/2018, 12:44:15 AM1 votes

how is this thread about divers if you're listing assassins?

MorganFreemanBot8/25/2018, 7:09:08 PM1 votes

Firstly, I want to clarify that "diver" is kind of a nebulous concept. As was mentioned, Renekton and Rengar are both divers. However they have dramatic differences; Renekton is more of a 'classical bruiser' with diver elements (target access), but lower burst and the ability to sacrifice target access for gtfo potential (using second dash to run). Rengar on the flip side has none of that, his only choice of actions are "all in" or don't engage. There's no other option.

This is kind of universal. While OP pulled up a list of divers, a lot of them are more bruisers (or fighters) than divers. Hecarim Vi Volibear Shyvana JarvanIV are technically divers, but in all their cases I'd almost call them 'initiators'. They tend to excel at getting into the heart of the enemy team / onto an unwilling enemy, and having both the bulk and damage to make sure that a fight follows after.

On the flip side, Nocturne XinZhao Pantheon Rengar are also divers. However they operate more like assassins, having strong access to a single target and making that target's life very, very hard.

With that out of the way: Nocturne is, for the first time since his inception, actually a relevant and strong pick. I want to talk about why.

As I said above, divers sort of have two categories. The 'initiation' divers and then the assassin-esque ones. There are a few other niches, but we're not talking about them.

Traditionally, the initiation based divers have been more-or-less fine. They're not always S tier, but they usually have their place. Quite a few of them have spent large amounts of time at the top of the jungle food train, running their unholy rape train on entire seasons before being properly dealt with. These are the more fighter / bruiser-esque ones

The assassin like divers though.. haven't had much time in the sun. Outside from a few shorter eras where one or two of them are heavily overtuned for awhile, they tend to be pretty poor picks. These are the wanna-be assassins.

The reason that the second group doesn't work is pretty simple: They're assassins minus one. They don't have the damage, target access, or escape tools which an assassin has; so they're weaker in every area which is critical to being an assassin. In return they have more tankiness, but not NEARLY enough to be functional as an actual front liner.

This leads to them, at best, being strong early game champs. Where lower-mid range tankiness lets them shrug off a few hits in a 1v1 / 2v2 scenario, and their strong (but not assassin level) damage lets them make good killers. However once team fights roll around their usefulness ends; they don't have the tankiness or CC to last on the front line, they don't have the tools or damage to murderize a priority target if they play super well and gain access to them while not dead.

I'd argue that's the 'true' diver design, while the other more viable examples are more like bruisers with benefits. And from that stance I'd argue that divers, as a concept, simply do not work.

This season kind of proves it. Divers are the strongest they've ever been, and its entirely because items let them go full glass cannon and murderize someone. This is the only way they have a use late game, and it's as a suicide bomber.

As for the answer? I couldn't tell you. I don't, personally, think there is an easy one. Select 'divers' are functional at times because they're more like bruisers, while the rest are (at times) O.K. because they're overtuned.

5050BS8/26/2018, 9:32:03 AM1 votes

Hmm is that the "Professional" description of a Diver? I always thought of them as those that can "Dive" in (with a gab closer), attack a few times and get out.
Champs like Ahri Akali old Aatrox Camille Irelia Kassadin Katarina Leblanc Talon Yasuo Zed Fizz are more of who I think of when I think of a "Diver"

I dont think of Divers as being juggernauts at all.

By your definition then Illaoi is a Diver....

woodvsmurph8/26/2018, 10:06:55 AM1 votes

I personally dislike all the classes and subclasses and feel they make discussions needlessly complex and confusing for various people.

Melee toplaners should be just categorized in one of 3 categories barring very unique champs like gnar (who changes depending on his form): fighter, bruiser/juggernaut, tank. That's it.

Fighter - often has good mobility, sacrifices durability for extra damage, generally focuses on dps; ex: trynd, fiora, jax

Bruiser - varying degrees of durability and damage but with a greater emphasis on durability than a fighter at the cost of some dps (or less commonly burst) damage; generally caster-based with windows of burst damage; ex: darius, renekton, yorick, volibear

Tank - has some burst due to high base damage abilities but does not typically build much damage nor get rewarded much for building damage, very tanky, often has one or more abilities which scale off durability stats (hp, armor, mr); ex: sion, malphite, maokai

Just looking at the champions, we can see each one fits in a different point along the scale and that they can even potentially jump classes by building non-meta items but that their kits alone (ignoring items) fit them into a particular class. Ex: trynd is almost entirely dps based auto's with a few e's thrown in there mostly to stick to a target while jax is more on the caster based side of the fighter scale with abilities playing a key role in his damage. Fiora is somewhere in between the two. Yet all are capable of good dps, all are naturally squishy and rely on proper use of abilities and getting a few items to really come online and win a fight.

Similarly bruisers cover a spectrum. They range from dps champs like yorick to burst champs like renekton; from damage and sustain heavy champs like darius to more tanky but lower damage champs like volibear. But none of them are as durable as a true tank nor as damage heavy as a fighter is in an extended trade once the fighter has several items.

I think this plays an important role in balancing champs too. Treating more champs in a similar manner, but recognizing their differences as champs falling at different points along a spectrum vs champs being on totally different spectrums affects how you balance them. Like volibear... should his abilities scale more off tank items and stats or should they be more rewarding for him to build some bruiser damage items? And depending on the answer, perhaps his kit needs changes to the abilities or to their scalings and type(s) of damage dealt.

XeroKimo8/27/2018, 12:48:49 AM1 votes

Ok this time I'll write my constructive thoughts about divers. They generally are not in a limbo with just assassins, but with tanks as well. When a diver meta exist, it's either they out damage assassins, or they out tank tanks, which makes them a very hard role to balance, this is very in contrast with juggernauts as they usually have no hard CC at all, but like tanks, doesn't have easy target access. Now look at divers, they have target access, like assassins, and that's thanks to mobility that's meant to be going inside enemy lines, but on top of that, those same target access skills usually have CC attached to it, if not, has a skill that easily combos with their mobility skill.

To me, I preferred the tanky diver playstyle meaning we'd probably have to shift %ratio into base AD making full damage builds look less attracting, but something that just seems to never be able to take away from a diver class is their suicide bomb style of playing. Which in my eyes, should be seen as, distract back line while your team collapses on the enemy team, but if you're too squishy, or you don't seem too much of a threat, you won't be much of a distraction, or you can't really suicide bomb which makes it really hard to balance any diver without tipping them on either side of the scale.

So how would I got about balancing divers, well first I'd put them into 2 groups, the caster group, and the AA group.

The caster group caters more around using their abilities for damage, and since they usually suck at extended battles, their abilities should see more shift into lower cooldowns, mediocre base damages, and low to medium scaling. Lower scalings make building damage less desireable, while lowering cooldowns would help them in extended battles. Champions who'd fall under the caster group would be:

  • Wukong
  • Vi
  • Lee sin
  • Diana (she could go to both)
  • Rengar
  • Pantheon
  • Renekton
  • Jarvan

The AA group caters more around using their abilities just for target access, and have some kind of attack steroid, they should have increased base attack speed, with less attack speed growth, which makes attack speed items more valuable to them, their base tank stats should be higher as well compared to the caster group but worse in growth just so they have the headroom to build an attack speed item early without falling behind in tankiness or damage. There'll probably some shift or nerfs in ability damage as a result, but generally should make AA based divers appeal more to being a bit more tanky, then again, I find most AA divers do build more tanky than the caster group. Champions who'd fall under the AA group would be:

  • Warwick
  • Camille
  • Irelia
  • Olaf
  • Rek'sai
  • Xin zhao
  • Kled
The Yetii Rider9/1/2018, 6:38:25 PM1 votes

The problem with transitioning divers to be more sustain-damage oriented is that divers are supposed to be the one melee class in the game that CANNOT be kited. If assassins are meant to kill mages, divers are meant to kill marksmen. But half the kill time of any melee champion is closing the gap, something that only the attacker, and not the attacked, can appreciate. You have to find a path, you have to dodge CC, you have to anticipate blinks and flashes and etc.

Then once you get there, you have to deal with peel, emergency flashes, shields and lifesteal. All of that, plus you're taking damage constantly.

Now, how can you accomplish your primary goal of killing a marksman if you have to do all that just to get to the target and THEN spend longer in melee actually killing them? Keep in mind that marksmen are intended to be tank busters, so increasing the tankiness of divers will not accomplish this because marksmen are supposed to be able to kill dedicated tanks with ease.

ModThe Djinn8/24/2018, 12:13:54 PM1 votes

Approved.

Creator0fLegends9/16/2018, 6:32:56 AM1 votes

Shyvana volibear and Udyr are juggernauts

Enragedmonkey88/24/2018, 2:11:08 PM1 votes

I think Root cause of these issues could be burst damage levels in the game generally , if every champion on the enemy team ether has a large amount of CC or a very large amount of burst , building as a diver is designed to do isn't productive because in any fight with more then one person even investing two or three items into tank still won't allow you to live when you dive in for any significant length more , its simply more effective to make sure if you manage to close on someone that they die instantly otherwise your just gonna get CC'd and killed regardless of your sustained DPS you theoretically could have

As for solutions , basically if damage levels were down a significant chuck across the board , and small adjustments to remove burst and add sustained damage to divers they could get back into a healthy place , I don't think that any list of diver changes can really make sustained damage the best without that overall game changes to damage

Crunbum8/24/2018, 2:31:53 PM1 votes

I think it all can be traced back to the state of damage in the game right now and how it is, in most cases, far more rewarding to build than defenses.

I actually made an essay on what exactly is wrong with damage currently but it got buried so shameless self-promotion here

Solidair38/24/2018, 3:52:11 PM1 votes

I think that item rework coming in preseason will help, at least a bit. One of the big problems is that there are so few diver specific items. Things like Shojin's spear that'll give divers some more survivability at the cost of some upfront damage.

But yeah, champs like Wukong and Nocturne are definitely an issue. It's hard to say these champions are in a good place when they can just click and delete any squishy they want to.