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Let's Discuss/Brainstorm Dark Harvest

iPooUnicorns··5 votes·24,351 views

Preface:

Dark Harvest has seen a recent increase in pickrate, partially due to Electrocute's upfront damage being nerfed. Additionally, it was broken on ARAM and Nexus Blitz before the map specific nerfs on it, due to the greatly increased rate of soul acquisition.

While Dark Harvest is set for adjustment on PBE (base damage reduction), it won't fix the rune's issues. Simple number tweaks are not enough, and frankly I believe the can of worms has been opened, in that people have begun to realize how absurdly strong this rune really is, and will continue to be taken despite the love tap nerf.

The Keystone is very snowbally and binary, it adds upfront damage on auto attack, and scales infinitely, giving it absurd one-shot potential, making it incredibly feast/famine.

It pairs too well with auto attack modifiers / spells that apply on hit affects. For example:

Assuming the champion is level 11, with 150 stacks of Dark Harvest and 2 finished items:

  • Build: item 3142 /item 1400 + item 3147 - 115-120 bonus AD + ~ 100 base AD.
  • Damage from the basic attack: 215-220
  • Damage from Duskblade 100
  • Damage from Dark Harvest (40-60 base damage + 150 from stacks + 24 from scaling) 214-234. (Varying base damage to account for nerfs)
  • Added up this gives us 529-554 damage, which is roughly 250% of the damage of an unmodified auto attack, and this is without any auto attack modifying abilities!

It is incredibly versatile, despite how binary it is, since it only requires you to auto attack while having a soul:

  • MissFortune Rengar Shaco Kayn Nidalee were the biggest users of Dark Harvest on SR using it prior to the Electrocute nerfs, Miss Fortune using with her Q deals a ton of damage, and the others having strong power farming and upfront damage.
  • LeeSin KhazixEvelynn have started taking it after the Electrocute nerfs, and Graves using it to due to his versatility as a jungler.
  • Hecarim Jax Nocturne MonkeyKing XinZhao Vi JarvanIV MasterYi all have the potential to use Dark Harvest, but currently have either more favorable runes or have simply not become meta with it yet.

More ARAM specific uses, generally taken since laning runes are irrelevant:

  • Grasp and Conquerer are much less effective due to their in combat for 4 seconds requirement

  • Fleet Footwork isn't needed to survive aside from ADCS

  • Aery for poke really isn't noticeable in ARAM compared to Dark Harvest

  • Electrocute isn't as optimal as Dark Harvest, since Electrocute has a cooldown and doesn't scale as hard

  • Kleptomancy is borderline useless, with gold generation being substantially higher.

  • The biggest abuser in my eyes: Ezreal he synergizes so incredibly well with Dark Harvest that I am incredibly surprised that is not frequently taken on him in Summoner's Rift.

  • AD champions that use it, generally paired with Triforce or Duskblade, or taken as ADCs to simply hit much harder:

  • AatroxCaitlyn Camille Corki Darius Draven Fiora Gangplank Garen Graves Hecarim Illaoi Irelia JarvanIV Jax Jayce Jhin Kayn Khazix LeeSin MissFortune Nasus Nocturne PantheonQuinn Renekton Rengar Riven Shaco Talon Trundle Tryndamere Vi MonkeyKing Zed

  • AP champions that use it, generally paired with Lich Bane:

  • Akali Bard BlitzcrankDiana Ekko EvelynnFizzGalio Gragas Kassadin Lux NidaleeWarwick Sona Teemo TwistedFate Viktor Ziggs These champions can take it to substantially increase their damage to both champions and turrets, with the poke heavy mages sacrificing some poke damage in favor of teamfight damage by taking it instead of comet. If you doubt its strength, watch this: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/318165023

I might have missed some uses, and some of the champions use it more for cheesy builds or simply take it for free damage while building normally, but the picture is clear, it simply outclasses many of the other Keystones in ARAM.

The underlying problems with this rune are numerous:

  • It has pitiful uptime before you reach 150 stacks. Before you reach this point, it lasts for 20 seconds, which is a tiny window of opportunity. However, once you've reached 150 stacks, it essentially has a 100% uptime with it lasting for 5 minutes. This is incredibly binary and is in general bad design.
  • Souls are almost non-existent for laners, as you only get souls from cannon waves and kills / assists. This punishes laners that want to have stronger trades through their keystone.
  • Souls get dropped for ally deaths. This makes no sense, why should you be rewarded for the other team killing your teammates or minions.
  • It has low AD/AP scaling but has infinite stacking damage. This reinforces how binary this keystone is, if you get a lot of stacks, it does a ton of damage regardless of whether you're actually building damage items. On the other hand, if you don't get a lot of stacks, it does pitiful damage regardless of how much damage you've built. This is one of the key reasons why it is so strong on ARAM, you're pretty much guaranteed to get a lot of stacks, which allows tanky oriented champions to do a lot more damage without having to build damage items.

If Riot wants to do an update rather than full rework to Dark Harvest, I have a couple of ideas on how to make it healthier:

  • Give non cannon minions and lesser jungle monsters "mini/weak/faint souls." These souls only give one soul stack, and do not activate the on hit effect. Additionally, these souls are only gained by killing said minions/monsters. This allows laners to have a lot more access to Dark Harvest, without giving them essentially 100% uptime.
  • Add additional check points that extend the time Dark Harvest is available. At 25/50/100/150/300 stacks, Dark harvest lasts for 30/45/60/90/120 seconds respectively. This would give junglers a much better window of opportunity for ganks, while also reducing the absurd uptime it has at 150 stacks.
  • Increase the AD/AP scaling to .4 Bonus AD/.3 AP, decrease the damage bonus of stacks by 50%. This would reduce the feast famine aspect of the rune by reducing how much infinite scaling damage it has, while rewarding those who build damage and limiting tanks' access to the rune on ARAM/Nexus Blitz.
  • Remove souls from ally deaths and neutral monsters killed by the enemy. Pretty straightforward, you should not be rewarded for things that benefit the enemy. A possible exception for this could be that ally cannon minions drop a soul if it is not killed by an enemy champion, but only if you are within 1000 units of an enemy champion. This would reward you for denying the enemy from killing cannon minions. Additionally this would remove the ability to track enemy junglers without wards, currently if you go into the enemy jungle while the opposing jungler is killing their camps, you can see the souls dropping from the monsters.
  • Add large souls to Epic monsters that are worth 10-15 souls, these would only drop if you kill or assist in killing the epic monster. This would reward you for good objective play.
  • ARAM specific: Reduce/remove the ability for Dark Harvest to damage structures. Damage from stacks is reduced further to 25%. This would reduce how OP powerful Dark Harvest is on ARAM.

All in all, I think these changes would make Dark Harvest much more accessible to champions that would want to take it, without making it too powerful on everyone. This also would give certain champions a good alternative or counter to Kleptomancy, which is currently an incredibly passive Keystone. The numbers might not be perfect, but I believe the general ideas I've listed would help push Dark Harvest into a much healthier direction.

However, it is very possible that Dark Harvest needs a complete rework, or a different set of changes; and I'd like to hear any ideas/input that the community or developers have.

Note to moderation team: I'd like this thread to be more of a community discussion rather than a discussion with solely the developers, which is why I am reposting a slightly modified version of this thread rather than posting it in Meddler's gameplay thoughts.

15 Comments

InTheory2 votes

I think this is definately one of the better posts in GP+ as it is easy to follow and makes perfect sense in every aspect. I'm usually not that kind of guy that just says "agree with everything" but I really can't think of anything that I'd change after your analysis.

Actually I didn't thought Dark Harvest could be a healthy mechanic in the game, at least now I am unsure. I wonder if you'd introduce a mechanic like DH (independent on whether it is on items, champions or another system like runes) to a moba you were to design from the ground.

When I have large amounts of off-time I put some work into a project (not from a coding perspective but a theoretical one) how I'd create a moba for myself that of course varies from the big ones currently available so that's not quite the same question. I came to the conclusion that I'd not want a feast or vermin nor a permanent stacking mechanic. Which means that mechanics like DH would not be introduced to my version in any form.

ModUlanopo1 votes

Approved

5h4Dovv1 votes

I'd like to point out that there's a different between numerical factors and how it affect game play (attack damage vs hits it take to kill a target, for example). The window of time for owning a dark harvest charge until you can use it is pretty static (for most cases), and once it hit a certain point, it doesn't make any difference, a 5 minute timer or 1 minute is both enough for a jungler to kill a camp - get it up, then use it to gank a lane. The 5 minute window is more or less to ensure at late game the player have an actual keystone, and is not forced to juggle the charge constantly.

In addition, I don't really get what you're implying by charges off non cannon and minor jungle creeps. If you intend to nerf its activation, that's going to gut its uses. If you intend to buff its stacking rate, it will make it too strong. DH is atm a high risk, high reward rune that allows you to snowball, but also punishes if you are behind. I've been experimenting with DH yi, and it's disgusting. It allows you to Q AA for a 1 hit on squishies, pick up the charge, then take out another squishy. At the same time, it's not viable if your opponent can deny you the stacks, leaving you with no actual keystone.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

The idea behind the charges off non cannon creeps, is to allow laners to have better access to the rune. It would only increase the stacks you have, but it wouldn't give you the proc.

My goal with the changes was to make it to have more accessibility & consistency, while lowering the raw power behind it.

5h4Dovv1 votes

{quoted}

The idea behind the charges off non cannon creeps, is to allow laners to have better access to the rune. It would only increase the stacks you have, but it wouldn't give you the proc.

My goal with the changes was to make it to have more accessibility & consistency, while lowering the raw power behind it.

Can you clarify on how the small drop mechanic would be? Because I don't really understand it right now. You want to reduce the raw power, but give more soul drop, which is contradictory. I'm seeing this as damage gain/minute, whenever you reduce soul value, change how it's given, change how much damage each soul give, will only adding complication without any actual meaning. You can buff the soul given in cannon wave for the same result, with the minor difference being your suggestion punish new players and losing lanes harder, as they can't reliably CS.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

The non cannon minions would drop a mini soul, adding 1 stack, but they don't give you the empowered auto attack effect.

The damage gained from souls is reduced by 50%.

Get stacks faster and more consistently, but gain less damage from stacks.

5h4Dovv1 votes

{quoted}

The non cannon minions would drop a mini soul, adding 1 stack, but they don't give you the empowered auto attack effect.

The damage gained from souls is reduced by 50%.

Get stacks faster and more consistently, but gain less damage from stacks.

This is what I meant by what matters is the damage gain/minute, not soul count.

Having 200 stacks at 50% damage is the same as 100 stack, translating to it doesn't do any difference than, for example, nerfing or buffing the soul from a cannon wave. Instead, you turn it into a farm keystone, which can be detrimental as it's relatively weak in the early game, while at the same time champions that can wave clear and CS consistently could abuse it, depending on number tweak.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

I see where you're coming from, but part of the goal is to reduce the overall damage at higher stacks, as it becomes ridiculous; and the changes made to it aren't as simple as x2 stacks, x.5 damage.

Early game it would actually be a bit stronger for laners. Currently, when you get your first soul, you have 0 stacks, whereas with the changes I proposed, you would have 12-18 stacks from caster and melee minions.

Also when you factor in the scaling increase, the scaling shifts more towards your build, rather than just how many stacks you have.

As far as someone who's lost lane goes, I'm fairly certain they'll still be better off than compared to live; as it's already a weak rune when behind.

5h4Dovv1 votes

{quoted}

I see where you're coming from, but part of the goal is to reduce the overall damage at higher stacks, as it becomes ridiculous; and the changes made to it aren't as simple as x2 stacks, x.5 damage.

Early game it would actually be a bit stronger for laners. Currently, when you get your first soul, you have 0 stacks, whereas with the changes I proposed, you would have 12-18 stacks from caster and melee minions.

Also when you factor in the scaling increase, the scaling shifts more towards your build, rather than just how many stacks you have.

As far as someone who's lost lane goes, I'm fairly certain they'll still be better off than compared to live; as it's already a weak rune when behind.

I still believe that letting normal creep dropping souls isn't a good idea, and it would emphasis on farming lane. Picking up soul from cannons is also easier than keeping consistent CS, and it would also remove the keystone availability from support players. Having a curved damage growth is a good touch though, much like how thresh soul is working as of now, would curve late game damage while allowing early game buff though.

Kadexe1 votes

It's strange to me that this rune was introduced at all. Did Riot forget the grief Feral Flare and Devourer put them through? At no point in the game's history was a stacking mechanic in the jungle balanced. Low elo players always get free time to stack and destroy the other team, while high elo players lose the early game to champions that invested in runes and items that let them have early impact. Same reason you rarely see Evelynn, Master Yi, or Shyvana; the game is usually lost before they have they can have the same impact that the enemy jungler had.

I don't see any way to fix this rune without capping the stacks or removing its identity of a stacking effect. You could maybe do something like Kindred and force the jungler to get stacks from the enemy jungle, but that could be hard to balance because the risk is so high.

MorganFreemanBot1 votes

{quoted}

It's strange to me that this rune was introduced at all. Did Riot forget the grief Feral Flare and Devourer put them through? At no point in the game's history was a stacking mechanic in the jungle balanced. Low elo players always get free time to stack and destroy the other team, while high elo players lose the early game to champions that invested in runes and items that let them have early impact. Same reason you rarely see Evelynn, Master Yi, or Shyvana; the game is usually lost before they have they can have the same impact that the enemy jungler had.

I don't see any way to fix this rune without capping the stacks or removing its identity of a stacking effect. You could maybe do something like Kindred and force the jungler to get stacks from the enemy jungle, but that could be hard to balance because the risk is so high.

Just to counter this point:

Both Feral & Devourer were far smaller problems than Harvest.

Flare was only problematic on Udyr and Shyv. Those were the only two champions who had the clear speed (and kits) to make it even semi viable in a professional, organized environment. It was stompy in low elo, but meh / super niche once you rose higher.

Devourer was even worse. It wasn't even remotely viable at high elos, and had all of 0 impact on the pro scene. It was also reasonably stompy in low levels, but that was because it actually gave junglers a reliable damage source.

Velasan1 votes

Agreed. I love the idea of Harvest because I've always been fan of all the old stacking effects: Feral flare, Devourer, bounty systems etc. I also enjoy champions who can stack like Veigar or Kindred marks.

I want to like Harvest, but it has an odd power curve of being especially weak earlier on compared to just taking Electrocute, but then scales in a stronger way throughout the later parts of the game.

Devourer was not really balanced either as a stacking mechanic, but it was also an on hit ability meaning you didn't burst someone with it up front. You had to stick to someone and land auto attacks, and that restricted its use to champions who wanted and could do that.

If I were to change Harvest I would much rather it just give your next ability extra damage, but reduce the overall damage that it does. Let it start very low, but scale at a more even pace including removing the extended timer at 150. Just have the timer go up by like a .2 of a second per soul collected. This way it adds damage with less burst that scales better throughout the game, still has that 1v5 potential if you get the reset, and is attractive to more champions who might use it except they don't rely on following up with basic attacks as much. The downside being it wouldn't do as much damage until it was properly stacked and would require farming it up to get there, which should be proper trade offs for the strength it gives.

Dog of Pavlov1 votes

Ezreal doesn't use DH because he's been balanced around Klepto. No one can abuse it better than him (except maybe GP, but even then Ezreal has much more range with his Q and is ranged). Sucks that if you go Ezreal and don't take Klepto it's like asking to lose.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

Ezreal using DH was ARAM specific

Daddy Ants1 votes

MissFortune is an abuser of Dark Harvest.

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