Riots new stat changes are an Illusion of choice.

GigglesO·Oct 27, 2018·32 votes·28,207 views

So here is the deal (Insert math)

Level 1 Morde Vs level 1 Xearth

0 bonuses MR 32 Xearth Q 80 (80+.75ap) Damage taken = 60.6

6 MR and 10 AP MR 38 Xearth Q 87.5 (80+.75*10) Damage taken = 63.4

For a set of stats that are supposed to be "Quasi equal" MR is losing the war. For me to take the same damage that a Xearth Q would deal with the bonus 10 AP I would need roughly 12 MR

10 ap costs 217.5g 12 MR costs 216g

So... yea... damage is still being favored, and we are removing bone plating, which also increases general game damage...

You can't viably get defenses out of the runes anymore, Riot knows this and so they force you to take 1 defense stat so that the players that would otherwise just pick 3 offensive stats don't 100% win by gold efficiency alone. If I could choose 30 ap (651 gold) or 18 MR (324 gold) I would always take 30 ap and then just build in game early defense. Literally a kill worth of gold.

Here is the gold value of the shit they are trying to give us 5 armor = 100g 6 MR = 108g 6 ad = 210g 10 ap = 217g 15hp = 39g 90hp=234g 9% AS = 225g

Clear bias for damage. Defense needs to be similar gold value.

So Next season when not picking your mandatory defense rune remember 1 offence rune gives you a 100g advantage and a damage advantage over the enemy.

79 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarOct 30, 20186 votes

Not sure I buy that's it's an "illusion of choice" as you say.

I would, however, really love insight from Riot about how they arrived at these numbers, and how they feel about your evaluation of the gold value of these stats. I feel there's probably a good explanation, but generally agree that it feels bad to players not to have that explanation in hand.

Having said that, we're still in early stages on this. It's not just possible, but likely, that these stats get tweaked before preseason launches.

GigglesOOct 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

"but generally agree that it feels bad to players not to have that explanation in hand. "

I'm probably a bit cynical in saying this; I think that riot tends to openly word their "in our experience" in an attempt to convince us that they "know whats best".

Their explanation will likely be along the lines of "we still want meaningful interaction in lane, and we found out that if we give too much defense there isn't enough motivation to go for early game kills".

Riots fascination with early game kills is why I say we have an illusion of choice. Mirror shell and iron skin never stuck around because they were too stat inefficient compared to other trees. It was another "see you have defense available level 1", might not do anything, but you have the choice!

ModKnightsKemplarOct 30, 20181 votes

That takes the conversation in an interesting direction, though...

What does your ideal early game look like? Because I think we've now seen what Riot's ideal early game looks like, and it does, admittedly, have some cool action happening. And do you think even defense stats will give us that version, rather than just turning the entire game into a late-game fiesta?

GigglesOOct 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That takes the conversation in an interesting direction, though...

What does your ideal early game look like? Because I think we've now seen what Riot's ideal early game looks like, and it does, admittedly, have some cool action happening. And do you think even defense stats will give us that version, rather than just turning the entire game into a late-game fiesta?

I think that if I can't clearly win a level 2-3 trade I shouldn't be forced to 100% afk under tower. I also think there should be an intermediate ground where I don't die as often, but instead am forced to lose lane pressure/gold due to inability to farm. Think about the tanks that did get that +20 armor, and how they can trade back and forth a little early game without instantly feeding.

I'd like to describe this as the "games feel too snowbally" effect vs the "wet noodle" effect. We have two extremes the level 2 one shot(look at when we were complaining about electrocute ignite talon level 2 full diving and getting kills), and we have the lol maokai vs sion extreme. Your only choice was to stand back and afk, or ignore your enemy and farm. Both extremes are toxic to the game.

We need something in the middle that promotes fighting, but not to the extent that players are constantly dying (s8 inting meme anyone?)

So as a side topic, I actually think that the new tower changes might make players feel worse about losing lane. While you might not be able to push them down a player will ultimately feel worse if they are stuck in a losing lane longer.

I don't really necessarily want to have a long response, but I feel like I need to write as much as it takes to describe issues, because this topic goes well beyond runes.

Its the tank toplane issue. If tanks can just afk farm what motivation do you have to try and fight them early game? If tanks scale too well, and can just afk farm why play a non-tank? We need to function in the inbetween where damage doesn't always win (which means tanks are unviable) or tanks always win (which means damage is unviable). We hit the extreme where we prop up tank base stats too high because runes/items are worth nothing.

Dorme OrnimusNov 24, 20182 votes

This is something i rarely think about but here's my grain of salt. In this season and the previous one the game had felt like a one shot clown fiesta made for casuals in resemblance of fortnite and call of duty, just outdmg everyone, duskblade (zed ult in an instant item) and many other ad changes felt wrong from the start, it started going downhill from rengar release (the first one shot champ) and to me, the best times for the game were when you could trade with the enemy without the fear of being ignited + e q killed in a second lvl 2 it's not fun IMO... That said i still believe that the best times were when we had support items giving gold passively, a support could put 20 wards in the same back, strategy mattered, teamfights lasted and yes, games were longer, this game was designed with a porpuse in mind, and that was to be a better Dota game, fun for everyone but being itself, problem is riot has tried several times to be some other game and changed fundamental things about the game that shouldn't have been messed with (armor pen, turrets, minion behaviour, runes, masteries) all favouring in their words "a more diverse game experience".

ProfDrDeathOct 30, 20181 votes

It is not even necessary to tweak these stats. The numbers are set up in the current way due to the fact that AD/AP are primary, additive stats, which HP would also be. In contrast, both Armor and MR are multiplicative stats. As such, despite having roughly have the gold value, 6 MR are in fact worth much more than 10 AP. On top, and this is especially important for AP, abilities have base damages.

Add Xerath's other sources of AP (+10 from slot 1, +15 from Doran's Ring) to OP's numbers: Against 25 AP Xerath (98.75 Q damage), Morde takes 74.8 / 71.6 damage (95.7%). Against 35 AP Xerath (106.25 Q damage), Morde takes 80.5 / 77.0 damage (95.7%). Bold are the numbers that would correspond to OP's two figures.

However, what about level 5? Level 5 Morde has 36 MR, or 42 with an additional 6. Xerath's Q at rank 3 has 160 base damage. Against 25 AP Xerath (178.75 Q damage), Morde takes 131.4 / 125.9 damage (95.8%). Against 35 AP Xerath (186.25 Q damage), Morde takes 136.9 / 131.2 damage (95.8%). Oh, look, Morde takes less damage in the cases with both bonuses than in the case without both bonuses.

The effect only scales up from there.

HibekiOct 31, 20182 votes

You forget that xerath is gonna buy more ap...

Support PositionNov 16, 20186 votes

Honestly I wish they would get rid of Keystone restriction :/ so you could pick whatever runes with whatever keystone and such :/ along with give ALL stats... I want FULL control... since they refuse to balance in the correct ways :/

GigglesONov 16, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Support Position,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=hAV8MAVr,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-11-16T20:10:48.087+0000)

Honestly I wish they would get rid of Keystone restriction :/ so you could pick whatever runes with whatever keystone and such :/ along with give ALL stats... I want FULL control... since they refuse to balance in the correct ways :/

This is why a lot of people actually want the old rune and mastery system back. It makes t hard to do anything without freedom of choice.

Ridley PrimeNov 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Support Position,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=hAV8MAVr,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-11-16T20:10:48.087+0000)

Honestly I wish they would get rid of Keystone restriction :/ so you could pick whatever runes with whatever keystone and such :/ along with give ALL stats... I want FULL control... since they refuse to balance in the correct ways :/

I had an idea a little while ago of a Keystone in utility that's just "take any five runes you want, as long as they're not in the same row in a path." Sacrifice keystone power for flexibility. Could also do "choose one lesser rune from each path."

JetboostOct 30, 20185 votes

I agree that that the stats should be equal in value at the start of the game. You pick the runes that would give your way of playing your champion an advantage with that given playstyle if damage stats are worth more there is no reason to go pick defensive stats.

I also want to note that some champions abilities scale with defensive stats but this scaling doesn't really matter cause the ratios aren't all that good so the starting defensive stat bonuses from runes shouldn't matter much as most champions that do scale with them have few offensive abilities that scale with those stats. What i thus want to say is that even tanks will probably pick the damage runes because they will have more use of it early in comparison to the defense runes.

I mean I am even thinking of playing tresh with the new dark harvest and shield bash runes because of damage potential.

GigglesOOct 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I mean I am even thinking of playing tresh with the new dark harvest and shield bash runes because of damage potential.

This is exactly what I'm talking about "Why pick defense if all it does is put you behind". Its the entire reason we complain about the current one shot fiesta of a meta.

ProfDrDeathOct 30, 20185 votes

These numbers are rather incomplete.

Yes, 6 MR vs 10 AP, in the example case, seems to be an advantage for the AP. At level 1, that is. Even then, conveniently forgetting to add Xerath's other sources of AP (+10 from slot 1, +15 from Doran's Ring) skews the numbers as well: Against 25 AP Xerath (98.75 Q damage), Morde takes 74.8 / 71.6 damage (95.7%). Against 35 AP Xerath (106.25 Q damage), Morde takes 80.5 / 77.0 damage (95.7%). Bold are the numbers that would correspond to OP's two figures.

However, what about level 5? Level 5 Morde has 36 MR, or 42 with an additional 6. Xerath's Q at rank 3 has 160 base damage. Against 25 AP Xerath (178.75 Q damage), Morde takes 131.4 / 125.9 damage (95.8%). Against 35 AP Xerath (186.25 Q damage), Morde takes 136.9 / 131.2 damage (95.8%). Oh, look, Morde takes less damage in the cases with both bonuses than in the case without both bonuses.

What about level 18, 600 AP Xerath? At level 18, assuming 50 MR from other sources, Morde has 103 or 109 MR. Against 600 AP Xerath (690 Q damage), Morde takes 339.9 / 330.1 damage (97.1%). Against 610 AP Xerath (697.5 Q damage), Morde takes 343.6 / 333.7 damage (97.1%). In this case, the 10 AP increase Xerath's Q damage by 1.1%. Meanwhile, the 6 MR still reduce the damage Morde takes by 2.9%. If Morde had no MR from other source, 6 MR would even reduce his taken damage by 3.8%.

In the end, the multiplicative nature of resistances compared to the additive nature of AD/AP means that resistance amounts in such effects MUST be smaller than the amounts in primary offensive stats.

#Different stats simply work differently.

ModUlanopoOct 30, 20183 votes

Question: aren't the gold values more about gating when the numbers change, making it a bad idea to compare stats in this way?

Example (with totally made-up numbers): jungler goes back at N minutes and is able to afford 6 MR. Goes to mid and has an advantage because the mid won't be able to afford the corresponding AP won't be able to buy until N+3.

GigglesOOct 30, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Question: aren't the gold values more about gating when the numbers change, making it a bad idea to compare stats in this way?

Example (with totally made-up numbers): jungler goes back at N minutes and is able to afford 6 MR. Goes to mid and has an advantage because the mid won't be able to afford the corresponding AP won't be able to buy until N+3.

I think you are talking about an arms race in trying to get the most stats so you can by default win lane.

Why would our level 1 stats being set to neutral be part of an arms race?

Why also would our level 1 stats being neutral somehow benefit defense more than offence?

Even if you are defense, if you get a lead you should be able to keep your lead.

If the jungle in your case gets a lead shouldn't he have the advantage?

ModUlanopoOct 30, 20181 votes

I'm saying the gold value of stats is set for a specific purpose and you might wish to consider that the absolute value of the starting stats is tuned for a different purpose. "This is how much of these stats is acceptable in the early game, when rune stats are most meaningful" is not the same thing as "this is how we gate the rate at which items are purchased."

EDIT: think of it as contextual value. Certain things are worth more at certain times.

GigglesOOct 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

"this is how we gate the rate at which items are purchased."

So that is actually a whole extra issue that I believe is also Illusion of choice.

The short story is that if you do an in depth analysis of defense item slot efficiency and gold efficiency its very difficult to get anything out of defense items. Which is why I believe that tanks have such over loaded base stats. Its designed so that the tank items can only stack well on "tank champions", that way they remain inefficient when not stacked, and even less efficient when on a target that doesn't have high base stats.

Example... try and play tank twitch...

Conspiracy also says that this is why Riot rebranded the meaning of tank two seasons ago to "champion with high cc". That way we can't say a champion like mundo who if he builds full defenses isnt a "tank" because he doesn't have enough cc.

ModUlanopoOct 30, 20183 votes

The short story is that if you do an in depth analysis of defense item slot efficiency and gold efficiency its very difficult to get anything out of defense items.

That's because games have to end. If survivability always scaled at the same rate as damage, the DPS character would always be rendered irrelevant the moment their opponents' defense moved the time to kill outside the length of the engagement. Either the defensive champion just walks away or they wallop the glass cannon until it stops moving.

GigglesOOct 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That's because games have to end. If survivability always scaled at the same rate as damage, the DPS character would always be rendered irrelevant the moment their opponents' defense moved the time to kill outside the length of the engagement. Either the defensive champion just walks away or they wallop the glass cannon until it stops moving.

Which is why we had 1-2 hour long games season 1. I was in full support of them nerfing defense until about season 4... I think then we started seeing changes that hurt the game more than helped. I fully believe offensive champs need to have the option of purchasing defense rather than just the illusion that the option is there.

Edit: I had a really wordy argument, so I'm cutting it down.

Too little defense is likely why we have all of the "feels stompy" games this season, because it is likely undervalued in both items and rune choices.

Maybe my question is when should I build a tank item then? Right now if I try and build one at all on anything but a full tank champion all I'm doing is accepting that the enemy who did build damage is going to kill me first.

If defense doesn't really have any clear advantages why would I get any?

PandaNator43Oct 30, 20182 votes

Right now if I try and build one at all on anything but a full tank champion all I'm doing is accepting that the enemy who did build damage is going to kill me first.

Not sure this is fair statement. I think the times a squishy wants to splash a defensive item is when the enemy is really bursty. So you have to consider the time interval of each champions damage pattern in your dmg vs defense calculation.

Illusion of choice might be putting it strongly. Situationally there are right or wrong choices. Maybe what you want is more valid choices for each situation. (Building defenses with a Janna on your team is better right?)

wish I could write more but need to get back to work.

Am I making any sense?

Pika FoxOct 30, 20183 votes

You need to remember many champs have multiplicative defensive abilities.

Also, it doesnt matter if damage outscales defensive runes, youll still probably take defensive options. It doesnt matter how much damage the enemy does to you, all that matters is you have at least 1 hp.

Not to mention offensive options vary in value between champs (how easy they can land their abilities, their ratios, method of obtaining farm, how easy they are to harass)

GigglesOOct 30, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=hAV8MAVr,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-10-30T14:22:08.796+0000)

Also, it doesnt matter if damage outscales defensive runes, youll still probably take defensive options. It doesnt matter how much damage the enemy does to you, all that matters is you have at least 1 hp.

I could use this argument to only build more damage and just attempt to one shot the enemy first.

It doesn't matter that I didn't build the defense because I still had 1 hp while killing them first.

If we want defense to be a viable option we need to have somewhat comparable tradeoffs. Whats the trade off if I die first because tank stats/items/runes put me at a disadvantage?

Pika FoxOct 30, 20182 votes

It doesnt really work like that, as CC exists. And exhaust. It doesnt matter how much damage you do, you have 2 options;

Either you build full damage so you either kill or be killed, and rely on your champions inherent safety to deal with CC and ranged abilities (which is why most ADCs are ranged), or you build tanky enough that when you do get CCd, you dont die.

The only reason marksmen and melee ADCs get away with glass cannon builds is because they have enough inherent safety to do so, either through basic attack range, yasuos W and shields, yis.... really the exception but he gets a metric fuck ton of DPS for it, and trynd's R.

Mages can also build relatively squishy if they so desire, but mages often by default have a massive range advantage over even ADCs with their spell ranges.

Someone like mordekaiser, however, cannot build to 1shot or be 1shot, as he will ALWAYS lose that battle.

GigglesOOct 31, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=hAV8MAVr,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2018-10-30T21:50:31.785+0000)

or you build tanky enough that when you do get CCd, you dont die.

What fantasy world are you living in, this isn't seasons 1-5....

Someone like mordekaiser, however, cannot build to 1shot or be 1shot, as he will ALWAYS lose that battle.

Thats not actually quite true... Might take 2-3 hits, but you can still kill someone in less than .5 seconds...

Pika FoxOct 31, 20182 votes

I main leona, tanks can still survive 6+ seconds getting focused as long as you engage with your team properly.

And no, mordekaiser cannot build to 1shot. Youll die before you get within spellcast range.

CdoreNov 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I could use this argument to only build more damage and just attempt to one shot the enemy first.

It doesn't matter that I didn't build the defense because I still had 1 hp while killing them first.

If we want defense to be a viable option we need to have somewhat comparable tradeoffs. Whats the trade off if I die first because tank stats/items/runes put me at a disadvantage?

I've been thinking about this since my tank top picks dropped in winrate. I blow up like a squishy and my items almost feel worthless just for trying to be a bodyguard to champs with greater scaling offense. I might as well build damage. Sure enough, I tried that and now we have trinity Darius and Black Cleaver Garen.

AlzonOct 30, 20182 votes

Ah, but did you factor into the account that you’re now getting that MR instead of a tiny bit of HP at level 1, while the Xerath is still sitting at about the same amount of AP that he would have with the current system?

It is an all-around buff to early-game defenses, even considering the loss of Bone Plating.

GigglesOOct 30, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Ah, but did you factor into the account that you’re now getting that MR instead of a tiny bit of HP at level 1, while the Xerath is still sitting at about the same amount of AP that he would have with the current system?

It is an all-around buff to early-game defenses, even considering the loss of Bone Plating.

That tiny bit of hp is and always will be a joke. You still have the option to pick 15 hp level 1 which is worth all of 39g. I couldn't get any support last preseason because "its just preseason riot will fix it" mentality. Well its been a season, and I'm still salty that they still haven't fixed it.

Can you imagine going to lane with 1%cdr, (26g) 15hp (39g) and 5 armor 100g verses someone that takes 20 ap (435g) and 5 armor (100g)

You would be at a 370g disadvantage level 1.

AlzonOct 30, 20184 votes

Last Preseason you could walk into lane with almost a thousad HP on some champions, and around 800 on most because you could take Celestial Body (+100 HP) with Inspiration primary and Resolve secondary (+165 HP).

I was actually comparing the current rune set stat bonuses to the new stats planned for preseason. Currently, you can’t get any resistances from runes other than Aftershock and Conditioning, and the only HP you get is a tiny amount per level and 50 from Chrysalis. At level 1 with the new set vs the old, you’ll lose a bit of HP in exchange for actual bonus resistances, while people who invest fully in damage will get comparable amounts to what they had before.

HibekiOct 31, 20181 votes

Celestial body was balanced because it directly nerfed your early game kill potential.

You had appropriate tradeoffs just to be on equal gold standing

GigglesOOct 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Celestial body was balanced because it directly nerfed your early game kill potential.

You had appropriate tradeoffs just to be on equal gold standing

Lol, "appropriate" as deemed by whom? Our Riot balance overlords?

Sir PoodleNov 1, 20181 votes

Clearly not even them, given they removed it.

GigglesONov 1, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Poodle,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=hAV8MAVr,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T01:08:34.472+0000)

Clearly not even them, given they removed it.

I'm pretty sure the actual reason why they removed it is because "It stopped players from ~~feeding~~ dying" We wouldn't want that in our game.

HibekiNov 1, 20182 votes

If you dont think that a 10% damage reduction for 260g of health isn't a fair trade-off youre crazy. A rune meant for surviving early was somewhat good at surviving early? Can't have that!

Anyone who complains about celestial body just aims to improve the damage fest.

DragonSheaNov 8, 20182 votes

Ok, first of all. the Damage runes need to be lowered for them to be balanced, cut adaptive force by half and reduce AS by -5% then we are good on the offensive side.

In regards to CDR, make it scale from Lv 1 to 10 instead of 1 to 18.

GigglesONov 8, 20183 votes

{quoted}

In regards to CDR, make it scale from Lv 1 to 10 instead of 1 to 18.

I think this needs to be an additional conversation about how riot has accelerated their game so much through damage that the new late game is level 11-14. Thoughts?

DragonSheaNov 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I think this needs to be an additional conversation about how riot has accelerated their game so much through damage that the new late game is level 11-14. Thoughts?

A lot of people have talked about that and my suggestions on countering damage creep by having a tankiness creep through universal HP increase or nerfing physical damage was pretty much shot down. Doesn't seem like anyone has come to a conclusion.

ThrowsTheBirdNov 13, 20181 votes

If they pump any more resistances into this game then the whole point of aggressive laning will be lost and it will be a dumb game.

This new system allows you to start the game with half a Cloth Armor or Null-Magic Mantle and that is still not enough for you?

I don't want wet-noodle fights, I want to be rewarded for risky plays and not just play farm simulator for 25 minutes.

GigglesONov 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If they pump any more resistances into this game then the whole point of aggressive laning will be lost and it will be a dumb game.

This new system allows you to start the game with half a Cloth Armor or Null-Magic Mantle and that is still not enough for you?

I don't want wet-noodle fights, I want to be rewarded for risky plays and not just play farm simulator for 25 minutes.

You are talking about extremes not just slightly backing off of damage. Those are two very different things.

Also, the new runes don't let you start with a NMM or cloth armor item 1033 gives 25 MR item 1029 gives 15 armor... Runes don't give that much.

Plays are also not risky enough with how fast you can kill the enemy because you just play farm the enemy champ simulator.

ThrowsTheBirdNov 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You are talking about extremes not just slightly backing off of damage. Those are two very different things.

Also, the new runes don't let you start with a NMM or cloth armor gives 25 MR gives 15 armor... Runes don't give that much.

Plays are also not risky enough with how fast you can kill the enemy because you just play farm the enemy champ simulator.

I like how you deliberately changed what I said. I said HALF an item.

You can start with 12 MR that is HALF of a Mantla OR you can start with 10 Armor that is 2/3s of a Cloth Armor.

Also you understand I hope that giving early resist stats (most of which will be used by Tanks and Jugs top lane) does nothing to solve the "too much damage in the game" issue you perceived. It is just a huge "F You!" to assassins and other early game champs while making a whole class (tanks) even more broken.

Also some champions were DESIGNED to be weak early and strong late. Twitch / Vayne / Cassio etc...scaling champions who have godlike late game. This pumping resistances into the game is just ignoring balance considerations.

First they say "there is too much damage" so instead of taking some away from items (both ap and ad) they buff tanks WHILE they nerf the Domination Tree. Now they buff Doran's Shield (again...Tanks and Jugs use it mostly) while introducing even more resist stats into the game. Horrible direction.

GigglesONov 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I like how you deliberately changed what I said. I said HALF an item.

You can start with 12 MR that is HALF of a Mantla OR you can start with 10 Armor that is 2/3s of a Cloth Armor.

Also you understand I hope that giving early resist stats (most of which will be used by Tanks and Jugs top lane) does nothing to solve the "too much damage in the game" issue you perceived. It is just a huge "F You!" to assassins and other early game champs while making a whole class (tanks) even more broken.

Also some champions were DESIGNED to be weak early and strong late. Twitch / Vayne / Cassio etc...scaling champions who have godlike late game. This pumping resistances into the game is just ignoring balance considerations.

First they say "there is too much damage" so instead of taking some away from items (both ap and ad) they buff tanks WHILE they nerf the Domination Tree. Now they buff Doran's Shield (again...Tanks and Jugs use it mostly) while introducing even more resist stats into the game. Horrible direction.

Missed the word half. (gonna apologize for that)

Anyways as far as tanks and juggs go, alot of them have over tuned base stats because of a combination of weak runes/itemization for defense. Its the reason why everyone that doesn't have good defense base stats builds glass cannon.

We first need to level the playing field in runes even if it means tanks are too strong.

We then need to nerf outlying tanks that are too strong.

Follow that up with a defense itemization buff so that defense again opens up to more champions so that we lower average game burst.

Follow that up with another nerf to anyone that abuses the items too much.

Just as how we didn't get to this damage meta in one patch, we won't get back to a wet noodle fight in one patch. I'm not asking for wet noodle fights either I'm asking for slight changes that add up slowly and get us just far enough away from this burst meta to have in fight combat rather than "I hit first" I'm honestly not sure how everyone is so worried about "invalidating assassins" Its not healthy for the game for any champions to be able to 100--0 a champion through defense items. 1 defense item is supposed to give 20% or more life. (Just look at 400 hp on a champ with 2k hp) Assassins are still bursting right though that 100-0ing.

We need enough defense to make assassins 100-0ing stay and auto attack 2-3 times or even hit their whole combo instead of just a say R Q.

Honestly if everyone does less damage it also means that even if assassins can't 100-0 someone they can stick around longer without being blown up themselves...

ThrowsTheBirdNov 14, 20181 votes

Here is the gold value of the shit they are trying to give us 5 armor = 100g 6 MR = 108g 6 ad = 210g 10 ap = 217g 15hp = 39g 90hp=234g 9% AS = 225g Clear bias for damage.

The only reason for this is that tank items are DIRT CHEAP for no apparent reason. Tanks no longer have a weak early game so they should be able to farm just like everybody else, make their items more expensive. Or look at it from the other side: damage items are expensive so it is only fair that ad and ap are worth more gold.

Armor and MR have low gold value because these items cost like 2700-2900 gold while most other items go to the 3200 range.

You can't have it all you know. Tanks are spoiled with cheap items so it follows that tank stats are worth less.

You want a less biased system? Make tank items cost 3200-3500 and immediately those values will change :)

GigglesONov 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

5 armor = 100g 6 MR = 108g 6 ad = 210g 10 ap = 217g 15hp = 39g 90hp=234g 9% AS = 225g Clear bias for damage.

The only reason for this is that tank items are DIRT CHEAP for no apparent reason. Tanks no longer have a weak early game so they should be able to farm just like everybody else, make their items more expensive. Or look at it from the other side: damage items are expensive so it is only fair that ad and ap are worth more gold.

Because their slot efficiency and gold efficiency is often garbage.

Slot and gold efficiency was meant to be low on itemization so tanks could have a stronger early/mid game while damage could still win out late.

Before passives tmail is 74% gold efficient.

If you have 30% crit IEdge is 105% efficent. (Up to 127% gold efficient at 50% crit)

You really think that tmails passive is worth 26% of its gold value? You really think Iedge should have a bonus 27% worth of stats? The gold value of ignoring armor isn't even calculated with that.

Sure the Item costs 500 more gold but you get a shittone more out of it.

Cheap is not the same as good. Thats why tanks have super inflated base stats, because they get shit out of their items, its also why except for damage/utility items like Iceborn Gauntlets noone else buys tank items. Noone else buying tank items fosters higher average game damage.

I stand by my assessment that we should be starting on a level playing field in lane, and that defense being weaker in the runes is a poor balance choice.

GigglesONov 28, 20183 votes

{quoted}

5 armor = 100g 6 MR = 108g 6 ad = 210g 10 ap = 217g 15hp = 39g 90hp=234g 9% AS = 225g Clear bias for damage.

The only reason for this is that tank items are DIRT CHEAP for no apparent reason. Tanks no longer have a weak early game so they should be able to farm just like everybody else, make their items more expensive. Or look at it from the other side: damage items are expensive so it is only fair that ad and ap are worth more gold.

Armor and MR have low gold value because these items cost like 2700-2900 gold while most other items go to the 3200 range.

You can't have it all you know. Tanks are spoiled with cheap items so it follows that tank stats are worth less.

You want a less biased system? Make tank items cost 3200-3500 and immediately those values will change :)

That’s fine, let’s make them 100% gold efficient while we are at it too. That way you can see exactly how spoils damage dealers are having gold and slot efficiency.

At cost most of the defense items are only worth 2200-2400ish gold but still cost 2900-3000

KaiokoNov 14, 20181 votes

You're taking things in a silo by only looking at the stat choices from runes. There are many more changes and not taking the impact of them all combined causes you to make asumptions that are simply incorrect just to prove your point.

Things like doran shield changes, turret changes and dragon respawn times just to name a few play a huge impact that should not be underestimated.

GigglesONov 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

You're taking things in a silo by only looking at the stat choices from runes. There are many more changes and not taking the impact of them all combined causes you to make asumptions that are simply incorrect just to prove your point.

Things like doran shield changes, turret changes and dragon respawn times just to name a few play a huge impact that should not be underestimated.

I'm not exactly sure dorans shield is the buff you think.

"Up to 30 hp"

Rather than

Get 20 hp...

They probably reduced the hp gain at higher hp values it might not even be a buff at all.

KaiokoNov 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm not exactly sure dorans shield is the buff you think.

"Up to 30 hp"

Rather than

Get 20 hp...

They probably reduced the hp gain at higher hp values it might not even be a buff at all.

It's HP restored after being hit. In your example -- Morde will get back 30 HP vs the 20 HP he used to get after each Xerath poke. You can take either dark seal or shield as morde depending on how harsh the lane is.

GigglesONov 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

It's HP restored after being hit. In your example -- Morde will get back 30 HP vs the 20 HP he used to get after each Xerath poke. You can take either dark seal or shield as morde depending on how harsh the lane is.

Read the damn thing again

"Regain an additional 20 health over 10 seconds after taking damage from an enemy champion." to "Regenerate up to 30 health over 10 seconds after taking damage from an enemy champion, based on percent missing health."

Its going from a guaranteed 20 to an "up to 30"

Just like mordes W says "up to 75MS" not gets 75

Its likely a net neutral change. You wont always get the 30. It might even be a nerf.

Asobi SpiritNov 15, 20181 votes

I'm not sure what the point is here, can you clarify it for me?

GigglesONov 16, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Asobi Spirit,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=hAV8MAVr,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-11-15T19:49:21.717+0000)

I'm not sure what the point is here, can you clarify it for me?

We need to have the stats be equal gold value so we have actual choice. Otherwise its better to just always get the damage runes.