The current changes to Sejuani and Ornn, and the impact on tank design

Iota Theta·11/9/2018, 4:56:47 PM·8 votes·21,655 views

The current reasoning behind the changes to these champs has been that the difference between their proplay and solo queue rates is massive, and Riot wants to bring them closer together. It’s a noble goal, but this path they seem to be taking is wrong, and it can impct how people see tanks and how tanks end up being designed.

When subclasses were set up and class updates were being done, tanks were to be defined by windows of higher tankiness, their CC, overall durability, as well as, for most, lower overall damage compared to other classes, exerting their power in utility and locking down targets for their allies. Another factor was tanks should have an element of unreliability in their kits to allow for higher impact in their skills, citing Sion and the reworked Galio’s E and Ultimate as examples.

Sejuani was reworked, and part of it for a good reason, as a long range, potential 5-man stun was incredibly powerful and, similar to Malphite and Amumu with their ultimates, ended up locking up a good chunk of her power. Her new ultimate worked out a bit better, with a single target stun and then a slowing field, which did better if it was used at longer range for engage. Her passive was updated to help with engages, and her W became a skillshot. Her E bexame a big issue, forcing her to rely on melee alloes to help her get the stun. It seemed less about reliability, and more of a weird gimmick for team comps. It also didn’t help that this mechanic for the stun lead to a fairly large %max health hit. She became strong in proplay, where they could more easily build around her kit, and weaker in solo queue, where that didn’t happen that often.

Now, the plan is to minimize the difference there, by increasing her damage and some base stats, removing her slow on the second hit of W, and reducing the stun duration.

In Ornn’s case, he started out weaker, released as, essentially, the epitome of the tank definition: unreliable skills (everything could be dodged), low damage, moderate-high durability, and high CC. His W at the time dealth %current health damage, starting out fights strong but getting weaker over time, and his Brittle procs the only source of %max health damage, but requiring an Ornn auto or hard CC to proc. His W eventually got adjusted to %max health so the damage would be more consistent (a massive mistake in my opinion), and from there he became harder to balance. He got picked up in season 8 in pros, and was incredibly strong there with his whole kit, and oppressive in solo queue lanes. So he took quite a few nerfs, with now a fairly low solo winrate and pickrate, but still good in pros.

He’s now being more focused around that W damage, pushing him more toward a bruiser type champ, ironically a position similar to old Sejuani according to her mains, in order to make him better for players in solo queue.

So what could this mean? We might be moving into a season where tanks, since they cannot perform as well in solo, will be granted more damage at the cost of tank aspects in order to make them better for solo queue players and not as strong in coordinated. If they think it works for Sejuani and Ornn, more tanks may receive this treatment, further blurring the already blurred lines between fighters and tanks.

Or I’m just being a doom sayer (i forget actual term) on this. What are you’re thoughts? What direction should these tanks, and tanks in general be kept in? Is it bad that a class is good in coordinated while being weaker in solo play? Should that be avoided?

24 Comments

Hibeki11/12/2018, 2:18:19 AM7 votes

I actually made a thread that unfortunately didn't get approved, but I agree with evrything said here.

Tanks, in order to be more relevant and feel like they accomplished something, are being given more universal damage and focusing around that universal damage.

Almost every single dedicated tank has multiple sources of universal damage while only one source of tankiness. This makes them incredibly frustrating to play as AND against, as tanks aren't doing what people play them to do and those playing against them feel they hit too hard.

Maokai is a great example. He JUST got his W % hp damage buffed, to try and make him relevant again. Instead of buffing his tankiness (Like a shield on W) while lowering the damage in return (This would absolutely make him played again) they make a pointless powercreep change that wont change any statistics, just further increasing the overall damage of the game.

Ornn I feel should be reversed, taken in the direction of perservering the lane so that hes a viable tank option against a lane bully. (Good waveclear, spammable shields, the ability to buy items in lane) while lowing the damage of his kit so hes not so oppressive in fights.

This gives ornn an actual unique and very viable niche. He retains skill expression and is a valuable roll without having to be able to kill people.

The changes you've described have not only been true, but its been true to the tank class AS A WHOLE.

Maokai has had his potent teamfight sustain and % damage reduction removed in favor of lower cooldowns and % hp damag on multiple skills

Nautilus Losing long term survivability in fights through a smaller shield in exchange for more fighting potential with the W's damage

Shen Has had everything nerfed so many times he actually has less health and armor than Draven

This spreads to keystones as well. Aftershock is a bandaid fix on tanks giving them armor and MR but yet even that has %hp damage on it.

PandaNator4311/12/2018, 11:26:48 PM2 votes

FWIW

In short, its not necessarily bad to have a large discrepancy between pro and solo queue performance. But its probably an indicator that too much of the champions power budget is coming from only team-play-orientated parts of the kit. In other words, it might mean the champ is too dimensional. I'm not sure how much of that applies to Ornn, but your concern seems wider than just him.

Its a valid concern, something I also expressed to Riot. Check out this thread.

Per squad5

I'd like to test out sharpening his identity as a higher damage and CC but lower durability tank.

I definitely would like more skill expressive tanks in the game. I thought of Ornn as a tank, but I guess Riot has a different direction in mind.

Stelyar11/14/2018, 1:04:25 AM2 votes

What is your take on tanks having a so called "steroid" in their kits? Particularly since Ornn is set to have his removed. Supposedly, (as far as I understand) tanks are very high cc lower damagechampions capable of staying in fights for long periods of time. Fighters, are supposed to be moderate-high damagemedium cc champions also capable of staying in fights for long periods of time. The thing here is that most tanks have their durability tied to hp scaling, or a armor/mr boost, while fighters tend to have healing tied to their damage, (either ad, ap, or hp scaling, but generally heal based on hitting things {Darius Q, Illaoi Q, general lifesteal}).

The issue here is that certain fighters are completely oppressive if they get a lead, because they have both high damage and high sustain. In order to kill players that are ahead, a team normally has to group up to kill them, which means fighters have more targets to heal off of (looking at you Darius, Illaoi, and Aatrox). This is further compounded by Triumph, which works really well on fighters due to their high kill pressure(but that's another tangent). In contrast, when a tank wins lane, and they get teamed up on, they only get the bonus of aoe cc, instead of extra sustain, and can easily be picked off when alone. I know there are exceptions on both sides; for tanks: Zac gets more blobs the more champions he hits; Maokai gets his passive up more often; for fighters: Xin Zhao mostly heals off single targets until he gets a Ravenous Hydra or has Ravenous Hunter (spellvamp), Fiora mostly relies on proccing vitals against one person, etc.

That being said, there's also other blurs between tank and fighter, especially when it comes to build paths. Mundo is a fighter because he has no hard cc, but builds pure tank. Garen to a lesser degree, can go almost exclusively tank after 1 damage item. Skarner is really both classes, because he has a health scaling shield and the ability to drag and enemy back to his team. A lot of fighters can be built tank after just 1 or 2, which means that late game, (everyone has 4-5 completed items), a tank really relies on their team to kill the other team before they die. This inherently means they work better in a coordinated team setting. Inevitably, we have to ask if they should be given more damage to stay relevant in solo queue, even if it comes at the cost of their durability.

I personally would say no, since that'll skew their identity even further. In the case of Ornn, I would've much rather have had his W dmg lowered, instead of lose the shield and gain unstoppable. His W was extremely strong, being core to his trading, because it was the best way to apply brittle, and thus do damage, as well as his best way to mitigate damage. Without the shield, it's a lot harder to stay in lane for a long time and just take use of the forging passive, which sucks because that's one of his unique traits. I get that the shield and unstoppable together are too strong (as I've played him since release), but I'd much rather have the shield, even if that means people like Camille can redirect his flame direction with her knockback.

As for the post about making Ornn higher damage and CC but lower durability, I'm not as surprised so much as disappointed. Lore-wise, (and while lore shouldn't determine gameplay it does give some insight as to what Riot sees the champion as thematically), Ornn is a demigod who wrestled/brawled with the land to form the Freljord, and dug a trench to cool his home that drained the ocean by several inches, which resonate power and would fit a higher damage role. However, he also slept through a fire, which would fit a tankier theme. So I can see why they see Ornn's Identity as that, but sad that he's losing his tank steroid to fit that.

So I wandered a bit more than I meant to, so in short; I don't like how he's losing durability because it removes a lot of his sustain that he needs to compete both in lane and survive in teamfights. And do you think every tank should have a tank steroid or not?

TheSingularity11/14/2018, 2:17:15 AM2 votes

It is definitely a problem going forward if this is Riot's direction. It will certainly push me away from the game. We've seen it go wrong with nautilus in patch 5.5, shens rework, sion and gragas. The later 2 need nerfs to their damage

Sejuani is a rather simple case to repair with a few tweaks: passive: sejuani's base stats are buffed so she isn't penalized for this kit component (she has lower MR and armor than every other tank) W-slow removed or entire spell reverted (will apply an E stack every X time). Personally the current one is a lil clunky so would pref a revert E: Semi reverted: Sejuani can apply 3-4 stacks with spells and auto attacks, allies cannot. Activating the spell causes damage and a slow that scale with the amount of stacks applied. E damage nerfed against champions Ultimate: Reverted but then nerfed: Stun duration lowered, range nerfed and explosion radius lowered (so the enemy has to be retardedly standing together to get 5manned).

Ornn needs damage redistribution. There is too much dependency on brittle. Q: pillar now deals damage W: hitbox fixed so he isn't farting fire out of his ass. Brittle damage nerfed when proced with AA E: faster recovery at end of animation. Brittle deals double damage with this spell. (maybe) R: Change to make it track ornn, like ahri orb on first trip. Will make it more versatile and could open ornn up for some more power adjustment

Other tank as mentioned of concern IMO are gragas and sion. But in addition are gnar mega form and amumu. Nautilus is more minor issue who needs to be reverted to pre 5.5 state

ModKnightsKemplar11/11/2018, 4:01:54 PM1 votes

Approved!

Gilgayu11/15/2018, 1:41:59 AM1 votes

Tank can be bullied easily during lane-phase. Kennen can poke tanks without end Jayce can shred tanks as early as level 3 Tanks are jokes at the face of a good rumble

I think Riot is trying to give tanks more power to fight against lane-bullies, but the line among tanks, brusiers, and juggarnuts is really vague already.