Ahri's foxfire needs a rework

Linna Excel··17 votes·27,394 views

As someone who plays Ahri from time to time when he gets mid, I have to say one of the least satisfying things about her kit is her Foxfire skill. It's the worst skill in her kit I'd argue. So I'd like to briefly go into what's right about it, what's wrong about it, and then talk about what her gameplay is about before making a few suggestions.


The Good Things Starting off on the positives, I think that it's name and its visuals are perfect for Ahri. The name makes sense for her theme and the visuals have a nice allure to them. She's a mage/assassin so conjuring some balls of fire seem right. It's a very simple skill which makes it good for new players to her; there's not much to learn about it when you are starting out on Ahri, just press a button. It has a low barrier to entry.

Another thing I like about it is that it can be cast on the run and if you do, you get a nice animation for it.


The Bad things It's not very satisfying a skill to use. Because all you do is press W and hope that all the wisps go where you want them too, getting proper use out of it isn't satisfying. However there are hidden mechanics to how the orbs select targets so if your position or how ahri is facing is a little off, the wisps won't go to where you want them to. So this skill has low potential to make someone satisfied and a high potential to make someone unsatisfied.

It lacks much in the way of skill expression. Again, as a very simple skill with a low barrier to entry, it also has with it a very low ceiling on proper use. In theory you could flash or ult just right for a specific orb deployment but if we are being honest, that's rarely the case with this skill. It's fire and forget and if you are going to flash or ult with Ahri, you are probably more concerned with hitting your charm than anything else. That relegates this skill to being more about bonus damage than anything else.

Wave clear with this skill is odd and not very fun. With Ahri's orb, wave clear is pretty simple: aiming. Using her Foxfire to wave clear on the other hand is unlike anything else in the game all because of those subtle mechanics one has to know about and master. If there are two low minions and one of them needs two wisps so you have not autoattack anything first, then you've got to move to the right spot and turn the right way so that one minion gets two wisps and the other only gets one and you have to do all this while your own minions are trying to steal your CS. Sure you aren't going to do this very often, but once or twice a game trying to last hit with this skill is going to stick out like a sore thumb. What's more, if the enemy laner is within the wisps' radius you have to be very careful in the early levels or you might accidentally draw minion aggro.


Overall conclusion about the skill Foxfire is a skill that hits its thematic notes but in terms of gameplay is too simple and has too much going on under the hood to make it a good skill for the game. It's basically bonus damage in a trade with a little RNG (subtle mechanics) thrown into it.


Defining Ahri's gameplay I think that if we want to see foxfire properly reworked, we need to talk briefly about all aspects of her kit. From there we can see what her gameplay is and try to come up with skill ideas that fit in with and compliment the things Ahri does. Ideally any new idea would keep the themes of the current foxfire as much as possible.

Ahri's kit includes the following:

  • Assassin-mage hybrid. While she's currently leaning a little more towards the assassin side of things she's generally been somewhere between the two. For instance her Q is definitely a poke/waveclear tool.
  • She's kind of reliant on hitting her charm for an all in.
  • She's forced to decide between playing safe or going for a kill.
  • Mobility. At first this was just her ult, later a speed buff was added to her kit.
  • Aggressive life gain. One of the core themes of Ahri&'s persona and lore is her ability to take the life essences out of others. Originally she was a fox that magically sucked life out of people, then she was converted into a vastyaan with similar properties.
  • AoE damage. Aside from her charm, all of Ahri's skills have the potential to hit multiple targets.
  • Skill shots. Her orb and her charm require you to aim them. Her ult requires you to have a good idea of where you need to be when you dash.
  • Niche ADC abilities. I'm a little hesitant to include this, but for sake of completion, Ahri is a very niche ADC up until low diamond. While she lacks AD ratios, her ult allows for repositioning that an ADC wants in a team fight and would work with TF/LB, she has a little CC for trading, her AA animations aren't bad for a mage, and her orb helps her with waveclear and heals her up a tad bit. So she's very niche but technically viable for the elo range riot balances around.

To Quote Bill Belichick "We're on to Cleveland suggestions"

Up to this point I've defined what's wrong with foxfire. I've mentioned what's right with it. I've tried my best to list what Ahri's kit is to narrow down the field of improvement. So now I just need to offer an idea to correct the problem.

So, where do we go from here?

As I see it, there's two directions we can take. We can either go down the path of trying to pick one aspect of Ahri's to be the focus of the new foxfire or we can go for a broader approach that hits multiple areas of how Ahri was defined. With that in mind, let me offer for your consideration a new take on Foxfire.

Foxfire Ahri generates 3 wisps of flame. She can recast Foxfire to send a single wisp to a target location or she can auto attack, which uses one wisp to deal bonus AA damage. Using the recast version deals less damage over an AoE, using a wisp for AAing causes that auto attack to be boosted by more damage than the recast, but the damage only effects your AA target.

Foxfire does AP damage and scales by both AP and AD.

Enemies killed by foxfire heal Ahri for a little health that scales on both AP and AD, AA kills heal Ahri more than recast kills, and champion takedowns heal more than minions or jungle creeps.

So, why is this better?

First and for most it's that it's a new idea for league; we don't have many skills that I can think of that can either be used as a spell or as an AA damage buff. This gives Ahri players a little more choice and execution. This also draws out the time it takes to get the bonus damage off, especially for someone using Lichbane, so the window of damage and ability to counter play Ahri goes up a little. For AA damage Ahri will need between 3 and 5 seconds to get all of her damage off. That's enough time for the other guy to respond, especially if you miss your charm.

More importantly, this new version of Foxfire gives Ahri players more choices and there's now a little more decision making involved. Do you recast for pushing waves or because enemy champs are clumped up? Do you use your AAs on a single target for max damage? Do you do both? Also because you get 3 charges so you have 3 chances to make a decision in case you want to set something up or a situation changes. So how to use it correctly becomes a lot more situational and it isn't exactly free damage anymore. For example if you did get Lichbane you now have to consider using a recast to enable the spellblade effect to activate VS waiting on one of your other spells to come up.

Other advantages of this skill are as follows. It keeps the existing art assets, so it's that much easier to implement. Since players can now use it more suboptimally and its maximum damage takes longer and puts Ahri at more risk, her players can get a little more reward for skillful play. The healing she gets fits in with the aggressive healing philosophy, and it might encourage Ahri players who are low to take an extra risk to heal up on minions; players focused on getting the healing would be easier to trade against. AD scaling is added as a bonus for the rare gunblade user or ADC Ahri but not something most Ahri players or people playing against her would worry about. Last hitting becomes easier with this skill as the player has more direct input on how the wisps are used now. Finally it has simple mechanics even though there is more skill in deciding how to use it.

However I think the most important advantage of this new version of foxfire is this: Ahri players would now be forced to think more about pressing W and think more about how they want to press it vs autoattack. Getting people to think is good. Ahris who fall behind on the other hand aren't going to think as well and that'll make them more open to getting killed because this is one more thing you have to think about when you are already frustrated and tilting.

23 Comments

ProfDrDeath7 votes

Interesting ideas.

The main issue I have with your W rework is that you add more waveclear onto a very powerful roamer and semi-assassin - which has a proven track record to lead to balance problems. The idea with the AA enhancer is good, though. Why not have the foxfires be single-target skillshots, instead? There are few mages with single-target skillshots (like Ryze's Q) after all.

Linna Excel1 votes

I'm perfectly fine if the foxfires end up as skill shots, if she gets 3 shots then that'd still be very close to what she has now. I'm more interested in the idea of a skill that you can either recast a few times or use to empower your AA. Once I thought of it, it seemed like it would be a fun mechanic to play around with.

TBH at one point I had it as a skill shot that if it killed something it gave ahri tiny little bit of permanent HP/mana to emphasize her life-draining nature.

Carnicore2 votes

I don't agree. Assassins need to have at least decent waveclear so that they can roam. That being said, if Ahri's waveclear is ever so high that her lane always has priority, then you could tack on a damage penalty against minions.

Alzon4 votes

Having Foxfire be a purely autoattack-enhancing ability sounds excellent. Not only does it reduce Ahri’s burst in favor of sustained damage, but it raises her skill ceiling because auto-weaving as a mage is skill expression. Giving it hybrid scaling would lower its strength slightly in a pure AP build and open up Gunblade as core item. Lich Bane would be more common, and Hail of Blades and Nashor’s Tooth would be viable.

The biggest issue (or positive, depending on your view) would be that switching Foxfire to an autoattack enhancer encourages kiting more than diving. Ahri is already well-known for being extremely safe with rewards typically outweighing the risk. Current Foxfire is the exception to this, due to its low range. A possible fix would be lowering Ahri’s autoattack range slightly, which would make a lot of people upset.

If Ahri’s range were reduced, it would open up this new Foxfire to be an auto-reset ability a la Sivir’s Ricochet. This would allow for more personal skill expression between Hail of Blades and other sources of attack speed, like Nashor’s Tooth.

Think of how a trade would go. Charm, Orb, Auto, Foxfire(auto), Auto, Auto. Congratulations, the enemy is now half HP or less. I propose lowering the damage output of Charm/Orb of Deception, as well as Charm’s duration, so as to backend more of Ahri’s damage with Foxfire and allow the enemy to react halfway through. Spirit Rush should be used primarily to reposition in a fight, not to start or escape one.

Of course, if Ahri’s damage were backended in this current “death touch” meta, her greatest counters would have to get that treatment as well, such as Talon’s damage being more pushed into his passive and Rake return, and Zed’s damage being more pushed into multiple hits with Razor Shuriken and lowered Shadow Slash cooldown.

I am by no means an Ahri player, but if she were changed in these ways I would probably add her to my champion pool.

TheSingularity1 votes

What if the new foxfire lowered her range for the duration? Then ahri players in theory would b fine

ADC Yuumi3 votes

I hear an AD Ahri buff. [sg-ahri-2]

Crimson Zeppelin2 votes

I'm pretty sure foxfire is MEANT to be a unreliable skill that is to be only reliable situational times to keep Ahri in check. It is a skill on a champion with 3 blinks, a long hard cc with decent speed, sustain, and waveclear. All of them with high performances. Some stuff needs to be unreliable on this champion.

ModUlanopo2 votes

Some stuff needs to be unreliable on this champion.

If the ability is made more engaging, then any increased power can be addressed in specifics (including raw numbers).

Linna Excel1 votes

Right.

I was hoping that by giving the players choices, it'd be both more engaging and for much of the player base a little less reliable. There'd be more you can do with it, but each application is a little more situational and comes with trade-offs. That means you'd have to consistently be making the right decision with it. As the game goes on, the more you make decisions about it, the more decision fatigue fits in.

The Goodest Boy2 votes

While admittedly not an Ahri player, I love the proposed idea for her W. When drafting early ideas, it's best not to consider any sort of objective balance; and just let the ideas flow.

I think League is severely lacking in terms of auto-attack focused AP characters/mages. Your idea sounds very cool for an auto-attack focused champ, while also keeping the mage-fantasy by being manually castable.

It also brings an exciting in-combat sense of ugrgency. "Okay, I'm about to auto attack. Do I want it to be enhanced, or do I want to cast it??? Better decide fast."

I think you'd need to draw a LOT of power out of her kit to allow this, but It's cool as hell!

NineTailedMystic2 votes

I don't think your skill is designed badly, but why do people suggest AA modifiers for Ahri? Just to artificially slow down her burst combo? I'm all for making the skill more than fire and forget, but I think making it an AA modifier would make her combo vastly different, slow, and dare I say clunky. Not to mention potentially spur tanky battlemage Ahri builds focused on sustained damage which isn't her identity. The only real positive I see for it is that it keeps Ahri in her ~550 range like her current W to make her take risks.

Linna Excel1 votes

The short answer is that after playing around with multiple directions for her foxfire and some mod encouragement to pick one thing, this idea came to mind and it felt like it'd be the most interesting one to play with. I reasoned that this might fill riot's desire to give Ahri a little more risk and reward for skillful play. Then there's the fact that her autos don't feel that bad.

She might start building item 3100 more often for weaving empowered AAs with her ult or do a W>AA>E>AA>Q>AA chained combo some of the time. Other times she might W>AA>W>AA or W>W>AA>AA. That's why I decided to go with this idea. It gives you things to play with and different ways to approach situations.

Noor Sakata2 votes

Honestly I don't like how her W works , but I love the animation of it and the 3 orbs around her like you mentioned , as for a rework , even though I main her but , she had so much attention , there are other champions that needs some changes more than she does

Linna Excel1 votes

Yeah, this was more of a one-skill rework idea that was trying to minimize the amount of work riot would have to put into it.

Sukishoo2 votes

Agreed. I've always wanted them to do something MORE with that ability. I love the animation it has but the actual ability isn't anything special to use.

Yaoi Tarded2 votes

It would be nice to see the "devouring their life essence" part of her be incorporated into her kit in someway.

Linna Excel1 votes

Yes. Part of the reason why I went this direction is it's a way to add her story and her lore into gameplay. As I see it there's 3 ways to do this, all of them ideally would be based on something else dying:

  1. healing/mana regen
  2. a tiny increase of max health/mana
  3. gaining a small amount of some other stat, in Ahri's case this would be AP.

Number 2 is a little problematic for ahri in that she probably needs to stay squishy and we don't want her casting spells forever, so the amount she could get from this skill would be trivial. Number 3 might work, but it might encourage her to farm more than she should. She's needs to gank and roam and having this in the early game would make her players want to stay mid all the time. Option 1 is the safest bet for Ahri players, her teammates, and the other team.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Approved! Nice work on the edits, btw; I think this is a lot cleaner :)

Ifneth1 votes

I agree. It’s just more damage when minions aren’t around and a quick way to collect last-hits after Q’ing the wave. The ability needs more skill expression and interaction.

GreatWhiteNorth1 votes

[sg-soraka]

You can aim the W using the R. It works by hitting W away from the fight, then popping your R so that when you land you burst the R and W on the enemy adc at the same time. Followed up by a Q or E-Q combo, it's extremely satisfying, moreso than any "skill"shot.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Make her W like Phoneix's W from Dota 2.

Fire Spirits Summons 4 fire spirits that circle around Phoenix. Each spirit can be launched independently at a targeted area of effect. Affected enemy units take damage over time and have their attack speed greatly reduced.

Linna Excel1 votes

Riot probably can't copy that skill exactly, but it looks fine to me.

Halodjin Tyr1 votes

Honestly I'd rather her W put a Marker on the Map that works Like a Post with a dog leash to Dash in a circle where for a limited time determined by the direction of your mouse be able to dash Left/right a set distance to allow for Quick dodge/positioning to land skill shots without relying on her ult, where the W fires Foxfires at people who are in the Circle, However the W ends if she clicks W again. Ahri I'd like to emphasive while W is active she doesn't have normal Walking movements Just dashes in a horizontal line.

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