Regarding Lissandra's preemptive nerfs - Why this was carried out the wrong way

Coolkipp·11/30/2018, 5:10:22 AM·17 votes·22,856 views

Two different styles of Lissandra gameplay with two different goals based on gameplay environemnt So as we know, Lissandra was granted a new passive recently (and skins woo), and as a long time Liss main I was ecstatic.

I've mained Lissandra for the last few years, and from the get go I experimented building her with a heavier focus on damage rather than survivability, and found that I could more reliably carry games wherein I opted out of the common defensive builds of roa+zhonya etc in order to function as a legitimate damage threat for my team.

Her 4 aoe spells greatly facilitated this goal and I saw great success, and felt much more skill expressive due to the tighter margins when it came to errors. I had to consistently play well and could not afford to make mistakes, but was rewarded highly for choosing the right plays, correct ability usage etc.

I understand that pro players prefer to pick her more for her utility than damage, however in soloqueue your team mates are nowhere near as reliable. That solo carry aspect of being a main aoe damage dealers is really her most valuable asset outside of pro play.

The aftershock build that is currently being used in pro play is being mirrored in soloqueue, but at a much lower success rate than an experienced lissandra main building for damage.

The aftershock build essentially makes it alot easier for players who are inexperienced on Lissandra to function, because it makes her weaknesses less abusable. Lissandra lacks sustain and defensive steroids in her kit, as well as lacking damage early thanks to her low base damages. During this low damage stage and because of that poor regen and low range, she is very susceptible to being poked out of lane or all-inned. Aftershock negates most damage in trades because it can be instantly activated and she gets extra regeneration/tank scaling from resolve. This turns many of her previous skill matchups vs assassins or champions that need to get into melee with her in general into pretty hopeless negative trades for the melee player.

It allows the lissandra player to stall for their team during a teamfight and survive longer than usual, especially against burst. This however comes at the cost of a significant portion of her damage as well as a much smaller mana pool to work with, making the lissandra player heavily reliant on her team's followup and subsequent performance during the fight.

As I stated earlier, this is the major flaw when it comes to this build in soloqueue, you are far too reliant on your team to carry under your own power. Aftershock or tank Lissandra will get outscaled damage-wise and be relegated to being a cc bot for her team as the game carries on.

Why was she nerfed? I believe that there were two reasons for Lissandra to get nerfed with the new passive:

  1. The issue with the aftershock build being too reliable was aknowledged and it was released alongside the passive change in order to keep those players of the new less-punishable build from becoming oppressively strong.
  2. The simple possibility of the extra damage of thralls may make Lissandra too strong in general regardless of build.

These changes however have made building her for damage and carrying unviable, as I will explain:

Lissandra's ability max for damage is q max->3 points w->e max.

This is done because of the following reasons:

  • The damage from w is much more reliable versus multiple targets
  • The root duration at 3 points roughly matches the time it takes for her ult to spread towards a target if you use w then ult yourself and they are near max range.
  • Lissandra's e cooldown is extremely long early, making it unusable as a trading tool. It is only used to engage for all ins.
  • Lissandra will blink to her e early to root at target with w the moment she enters range to hit them with it in order to lower the amount of time opponents have to react. This can guarantee kills on targets who have flash, as they do not expect the Lissandra player to root them so quickly.
  • The low ratio on w (40%) while the ratio on e is rather high (60%) means that e can be allowed to scale with the ap the lissandra picks up as the game goes on. When purchasing luden's first, the ap and 20% cdr help mitigate the delay in putting points in e, allowing the lissandra to do alot more consistent damage with her all in combo using e as a gap closer.
  • Lissandra can use a combination of 1 q and w to clear the wave while keeping her long e cooldown preserved for an escape.

Because of Lissandra's low base damages raw ap components are usually rushed in order to make use of the scalings on her abilities for damage, there is also a heavy focus on a minimum requirement of roughly 30% cdr . For this reason luden's is usually rushed on her, and with the season being particularly bursty, at least one hp/ap item is purchased after that. This item is either morello or liandry's. The recent buff to liandry's adding 10% extra damage was a very nice bump in power that brought Lissandra into a good spot.

Based on the ability maxes and item preferences, we now look to why this build has been impacted so much by the recent changes:

  • Lower damage makes it flat out more difficult to cs and waveclear, pairing this with earlier cannon wave spawn times and Lissandra is now alot more tied up clearing waves and struggling to maintain her mana pool in the mid game.
  • Ratio nerf makes the damage in an all in lackluster and encourages the Lissandra player to max e for damage in a fight instead of w, when they will likely not end up using the damage on e unless the opponent misplays.
  • Addition of 6-12 mr in runes as well as the compensation mr per level for ranged champions stack on top of the damage nerfs to make it impossible for a lissandra to punish an opponent by killing them. Her low base damages and long cooldownsm make it too high/risky early game to trade with opponents in a positive manner. Lissandra really struggles into even small mr purchases like null mantle while ahead until she gets a void staff.

Another flaw that I would like to point out in the changes is that the mana cost reductions where nowhere near what were expected upon the removal of her old mana passive, resulting in a mana item becoming an absolute requirement for Lissandra. This change alone I believe would hurt the aftershock build alot, as it forces that build into utilizing a mana item instead of functioning manalessly.

I do not think the cost reductions were effective. as for the q cost change, Lissandra 10/10 rushes q max every time, resulting in a q cost reduction of only 3 mana overall (60-72 down from 75), this has seen Lissandra players become much more mana hungry than before due to how frequently she has to cast it. While the cost on w being reduced by 10 does not mean much as the cost was already negligable at 50 mana for a long cooldown.

Her e mana cost could have been normalized from 80-100 mana to 80 at all ranks, and her q lowered to be in line with other control mages such as orianna (30-50) and syndra (40-80).

In response to her damages being lowered to create space for damage in her passive, I would like to say that this too is flawed. The passive as it stands is a win-more passive. It promotes you killing a target and fills the negative space that Lissandra has between her cooldowns coming back up, giving her time to retreat after expending them, or press the attack as her thralls chase people down. Lissandra however cannot achieve this fantasy if she does not have the innate damage to kill a target or start a snowball. Lissandra players don't feel like the thralls are happening becuase of how effective they're being, more like it's just because they're in the fight and nothing else. To tackle this passive being a problem on her tankier/aftershock builds damage-wise, the base damage could be lowered and ratio increased to favor ap-focused builds.

Sadly, due to aftershock/tank players being more accustomed to dealing less damage, they do not see the nerfs as a significant hit to her effectiveness because they pick her for team-oriented purposes such as crowd control or stalling. While damage-heavy Lissandra players are unable to influence the game as they aim to by being a significant aoe damage source for their team and being able to eliminate targets.

26 Comments

Anadanament11/30/2018, 5:34:16 AM11 votes

On the off chance a Rioter sees this, I would like to add that the new Thrall passive is just that - passive. The player has neither control nor idea about what the Thralls will do, and they spawn if she's simply near a fight. It removed what little skill expression was in the old Iceborn passive (throwing free Q's for trades, or utilizing the passive to E/E -> R someone when it appears that you don't have enough mana to do so and aren't a threat) and turned Lissandra into a fairly stagnant mage that simply needs to exist near a fight to make an impact.

FelixFurry11/30/2018, 1:04:12 PM8 votes

I have been playing Lissandra for 3 years, ever since I started playing the game. I have seen her both in and out of the meta and throughout the new passive process. I have to disagree with you on most of your points (not all).

The aftershock build essentially makes it alot easier for players who are inexperienced on Lissandra to function, because it makes her weaknesses less abusable.

Yes, and this also makes it easier for experienced Lissandra players as well because it makes her weaknesses less abusable. She doesn't have to do immense amounts of damage to be an asset to the team/game. It is indisputable that Aftershock was (in patches previous to 8.23) the best rune on her due to the synergy between the two. It's beginning to fall off now due to mana issues which is understandable. Some (not all) find that they can preform better with other runes (Aery, Electrocute, Comet, GA) than they can with Aftershock, specifically if they want to fill a heavier damage role, but Aftershock does not push them out from being viable. That said, Aftershock does need some revisiting given it's power.

These changes however have made building her for damage and carrying unviable, as I will explain:

Lissandra's ability max for damage is q->3 points w->e max.

This is done because of the following reasons:

  • The damage from w is much more reliable versus multiple targets
  • The root duration at 3 points roughly matches the time it takes for her ult to spread towards a target if you use w then ult yourself and they are near max range.
  • Lissandra's e cooldown is extremely long early, making it unusable as a trading tool. It is only used to engage for all ins.
  • Lissandra will blink to her e early to root at target with w the moment she enters range to hit them with it in order to lower the amount of time opponents have to react. This can guarantee kills on targets who have flash, as they do not expect the Lissandra player to root them so quickly.
  • The low ratio on w (40%) while the ratio on e is rather high (60%) means that e can be allowed to scale with the ap the lissandra picks up as the game goes on. When purchasing luden's first, the ap and 20% cdr help mitigate the delay in putting points in e, allowing the lissandra to do alot more consistent damage with her all in combo using e as a gap closer.
  • Lissandra can use a combination of 1 q and w to clear the wave while keeping her long e cooldown preserved for an escape.

The changes to Lissandra were necessary. I did not like them either, but it was an understandable power shift. Her new passive, although uncontrollable, offers a lot of back-loaded power. If they did not nerf her somewhere, her power level would be over the moon if she was able to utilize her passive properly. Granted, the nerfs make her a somewhat feast or famine champion, but not by much. If they had nerfed her E damage, it wouldn't have mattered as you stated, it is only used as an engage. Very rarely do we use it for damage. So the best option was to nerf the guaranteed damage on her hit in her W and R.

Addition of 6-12 mr in runes as well as the compensation mr per level for ranged champions stack on top of the damage nerfs to make it impossible for a lissandra to punish an opponent by killing them as her base damages or too low and cooldowns too high/risky early game to trade with opponents in a positive manner. Lissandra really struggles into even small mr purchases like null mantle while ahead until she gets a void staff.

Because of the decoupling of stats from the Rune Trees, almost all champions are opting in for adaptive damage instead of the MR shards. Even if they opt into the bonus 6 MR on the last row, it does not impact the game as heavily. It is only 24% of the MR of Mercury Treads. Also, the MR/Armor shards were designed to reduce damage overall in the game, so the fact that they have any impact shows that they are working for their intended purpose.

Another flaw that I would like to point out in the changes is that the mana cost reductions where nowhere near what were expected upon the removal of her old mana passive, resulting in a mana item becoming an absolute requirement for Lissandra. This change alone I believe would hurt the aftershock build alot, as it forces that build into utilizing a mana item instead of functioning manalessly.

Yes

I do not think the cost reductions were effective. as for the q cost change, Lissandra 10/10 rushes q max every time, resulting in a q cost reduction of only 3 mana overall (60-72 down from 75), this has seen Lissandra players become much more mana hungry than before due to how frequently she has to cast it. While the cost on w being reduced by 10 does not mean much as the cost was already negligable at 50 mana for a long cooldown.

Her e mana cost could have been normalized from 80-100 mana to 80 at all ranks, and her q lowered to be in line with other control mages such as orianna (30-50) and syndra (40-80).

Yes

In response to her damages being lowered to create space for damage in her passive, I would like to say that this too is flawed. The passive as it stands is a win-more passive. It promotes you killing a target and fills the negative space that Lissandra has between her cooldowns coming back up, giving her time to retreat after expending them, or press the attack as her thralls chase people down. Lissandra however cannot achieve this fantasy if she does not have the innate damage to kill a target or start a snowball. Lissandra players don't feel like the thralls are happening becuase of how effective they're being, more like it's just because they're in the fight and nothing else. To tackle this passive being a problem on her tankier/aftershock builds damage-wise, the base damage could be lowered and ratio increased to favor ap-focused builds.

As I said above, her passive makes her a feast or famine champion. It is a flawed concept, but it is adaptable. But the reason her base damage is so high is to make it so her passive is not useless if she falls behind. Scaling damage from level is better than from items as it makes sure she is still relevant in the game if she only has 1-2 items and it's 30 minutes (exaggeration).

Sadly, due to aftershock/tank players being more accustomed to dealing less damage, they do not see the nerfs as a significant hit to her effectiveness because they pick her for team-oriented purposes such as crowd control or stalling. While damage-heavy Lissandra players are unable to influence the game as they aim to by being a significant aoe damage source for their team and being able to eliminate targets.

Damage Lissandra is still viable. The nerfs to her represent a power shift in her kit, not an all out demolition of her ability to carry. If you are able to adapt to the changes, you are able to find equal success from the previous iteration of her kit. I agree with you that her kit needs to be more finely tuned, as we expect it will in the coming patches as she finds her footing in the game and people become more accustomed to her new ability.

It's good that we are openly having this discussion. Hopefully Riot allows multiple variations in her playstyle without one being overtly OP.

Vekkna11/30/2018, 7:43:00 PM4 votes

Aftershock Liss is the symptom of the champ's low damage. Aftershock builds would virtually disappear overnight if Liss had enough damage for Electrocute to push her burst into kill-threat territory. Instead, people go Aftershock because she's not bursting a target either way, so Aftershock can be worth more damage by having the survivability to cast more Qs.

We saw similar contrivances with Gunblade Ahri and Leblanc, tank Akali prior to season 6 tweaks, Grasp/Mallet Teemo, Nashor's Trynd, tank Pyke, bruiser Evelynn, an AP Shyvanna. IBG Ezreal is another that stuck around long enough to be meta. Aftershock Lissandra is really no different, and for some insane reason Riot thinks that big damage nerfs will improve the situation when is actually just further pigeonholes LIss to Aftershock.

Most of the time LIss is just a worse Gragas or Sej, with less damage and lower AP scaling (specifically Gragas). Even played as a utility disruptor, she's not doing anything that bruiser Brand and Zyra don't do better at longer range for much less gold. The only advantages Liss has over these other champs is more reliable cc and a blink (with an exceptionally long delay/telegraph) in exchange for a massive increase in risk and decrease in damage.

At this rate just do away with the stun on her ult and give her the damage and Q range needed to have agency in solo queue.

Emo Twink11/30/2018, 8:45:12 AM4 votes

I never liked aftershock liss, full damage liss felt more rewarding than being a CC bot. Was excited for the rework, but I feel like they wouldnt of touched as much of liss's damage if she didnt suddenly become a meta champ.

SanKakU12/2/2018, 2:01:43 PM3 votes

I agree that tank Lisssandra can at times feel bad in solo matchmaking, and it sucks to have some damage taken out of her 'carry style' of play, but I would rather blame the direction they took her new passive in than the nerfs they gave her. The passive itself is an absolutely massive nerf and anyone that thinks otherwise just doesn't understand how passives work. If they really wanted to give her a new passive, all they had to do was give her the Yasuo treatment. Give her that super gimmicky secondary effect to her passive. And then you're done. No buffs or nerfs needed anywhere else for her.

Yasuo has 2 effects on his passive, he has a free shield that seems to come up more frequently than Malzahar's spell block passive and he has bonus critical strike chance. There's no excuse for giving a champion a gimmick only for a passive nowadays. It's just nonsense.

R is for Reset12/4/2018, 11:31:52 AM2 votes

Her winrate in Diamond and higher elo is around 53%. But that's thanks to Aftershock being so good on her. If they tuned her AP Ratios and AP scaling she would be in a good spot to use the more offensive runes.

TLF brubie12/5/2018, 1:40:18 PM1 votes

I think rather than requiring a mana item, it seems to have made high elo lissandra require multiple starting items (some combination of doran's rings/dark seals/corrupting potions) which is arguably a poor thing. That said her passive removal and mana cost buffs hurt her way more mid than top (you dont have to waveclear as fast though you use w more often - a lower mana cost ability anyway). That said I do think the ap ratio nerfs hit her a bit to strong considering how unreliable and frequently useless/winmore her new passive can be.

Nevrankroaton12/7/2018, 1:13:30 PM1 votes

I don't really agree with this comment, they didn't made a new passive for the fun of it. It was ASKED by PLAYER for years now. I didn't care, just so you know, but it was CONTINOUSLY asked to replace her passive because it was "generic" and "boring".

So they changed it, and it is quite a strong passive. Huge base damage, has a slow, AOE, no cooldown.

In exchange, we lost 0,2 AP ratio and 40 base dmg on a direct buff. Not the most violent nerf but not a small one.

But again, what is lissandra strength? Because I was playing aggressive Lissandra (comet personnally, never liked thunderlord on her) and she wasn't an insane burst mage. She was a mage with huge lockdown, tempo capacity, short Q cooldown allowing for pushing waves like crazy + harass. It isn't like she NEED that strength and not like it would be healthy for her to have it.

One thrall touching one ennemy make up HEAVILY for the nerf on her W and R. Then let's see an other point, what was touch?

Her W base damage at later level and AP ratio, normally max last, and her R AP ratio. So she isn't violently touch on her early game, we lost some AP ratio but we don't have much AP early on anyway (and lissandra build a lot of different item...). It make her violent in 2 vs 2 situation. Our snowball isn't damaged, if anything it can be made far stronger.

Then Lissandra would burst people if fed or very late game on people not building defensive items, I don't think it is fair to say we lost something when our Q, the bread and butter spell, got UNTOUCHED and when we have already a LOT of strength on her. She was never meant to be in the lane of Veigar/Zoe/Annie and it wouldn't be healthy if a lockdown mage (CC lockdown non less) with a gap closer could burst as hard.

She is fine, she is more than fine.

SoulDraxios12/16/2018, 1:31:03 AM1 votes

item 3047 item 3025 item 3110 item 3030 item 3027 item 3116 Full build, then replace boots with item 3089 when you may. Early and forever tanky with max cd/high mana pool and by the end of the game with item 3027 timer making you increasingly stronger and item 3089 finalizing your power, you become a CC, tanky, magic mage god beast.

Only issue with this build, is going against a mage in lane, so you better be good at dodging spells, safing with R, or killing them with ganks.

Rabbi Shekelberg12/27/2018, 2:59:50 PM1 votes

that lissandra passive change made her from barely playable to overpowered and oppressive in ARAM

Pianoasis2/4/2019, 7:38:34 AM1 votes

Aftershock or tank Lissandra will get outscaled damage-wise and be relegated to being a cc bot for her team as the game carries on.

I'm all for this

Ashenvall12/1/2018, 7:55:32 PM1 votes

Just swap scaling damage between W and E. Decrease W CD, and increase flat damage, + increase ap scaling to 80% Increase E CD, decrease flat damage, + decrease ap scalling to 20% Increase R % scaling ap and health. Reduce her casting range. Q; Apply Slow to two targets supplementary (max: 3)

ModUlanopo12/2/2018, 4:41:48 AM1 votes

Approve

STDspreader12/2/2018, 5:35:14 PM1 votes

I wholeheartedly agree with your points. I think Riot has invested way too much of her power into her passive and I would like to see them shift damage back into her abilities from her unreliable passive.

Gilgayu12/2/2018, 10:43:50 PM1 votes

Whenever I play Lissandra her damage always seem to be low (compared to other similar control mages like orianna) I go item 3027 item 3003 item 3151item 3157 item 3089 and item 3020 after 2nd back most of the time

I can never melt down the tanks, and adcs just qss and kill me...

Am I playing her wrong? (I always win lane, though)

Ηuawei12/4/2018, 1:26:04 AM1 votes

I read a lot of your post and you make good points but isn't the same with supports?

When you play a support you effectively set up plays for your team and you hope they will follow up. So... that's not a new concept.