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The Current Problems with Kayn and how to Fix them

Freud Fanboy·10/8/2018, 8:49:37 PM·8 votes·28,651 views

So Kayn has been out for over a year now, and has been a pretty popular pick ever since release (and especially now with the new sweet legendary skin for him), but every time I play him I keep getting bothered by how many frustating mechanics this champion has that I honestly thought Riot would've fixed ages ago. So let's get into it:

1. His passive meter to switch form lacks a lot of clarity. The lack of information you have about your progress to choosing a form is honestly astounding, and probaly the biggest problem when playing Kayn right now. It baffles me that Riot hasn't done anything about this yet. Alright, so features we need for Kayn's passive:

  • A way to see which form you have progressed most towards
  • The exact percentage of the meter filled
  • The ability to ping the ability to communicate our progress with teammates.

Alright, let us get into some more gameplay related issues.

2. Kayn is too matchup reliant early game because of the way his passive works. Getting up against 3 ranged lanes in a game can make any Kayn player's life a living hell. Not only do you lack any good gapclosers to actually reach them, you are directly forced to gank them over and over again just to get a chance of getting your Red Kayn somewhat early.

This problem gets worse when you realise that ganks against squshier ranged champions aren't just harder for Kayn to gank, and typically won't help him reach his much needed Rhaast form fast, ganking these lanes will also just give less orbs in general for his passive, since killing them is so much faster, resulting in you getting less attacks in on them, resulting in less orbs. You will almost always get way more orbs ganking a Maokai than an Quinn for example - This wouldn't be so much of a problem if Red Kayn wouldn't be the best pick in 90% of games (The 90% is argueable), but that is the current case.

My number one way to fix this would be to either:

  • Make Shadow Assassin Kayn more reliable and useful (His burst combo already deals a toxic amount of damage, so probaly best not to increase that. I would even suggest taking damage out of his kit for more tankiness/utility) or

  • Rework the Orbs so that there is only one kind of them, and they progress to both transformations instead of only one of them. This one would also fix the problem when you're only 5% off on your meter to get Rhaast, and you literally have to ignore every enemy ranged champion in the game, until you can get those 2 auto attacks off on their melee champions. I have probaly gotten reported for not touching a lane under any circumstance, just because it had an enemy ranged champion in it.

Now for the last one, that some people might not agree entirely with:

3. Kayn has terrible ganks early game, but is forced to gank way harder than most other champions.

Now I think this in most cases is fair enough, every champion needs weaknesses, but it can create some very, very frustrating situations for the person playing Kayn. These situations occur when he is either up against a very early game focused jungler, or all three lanes are all very hard to gank early (especially with the weak ganking power of Kayn early).

You can basically end up in a situation where you are so much weaker than the enemy, that you will practically have to suicide over and over again, just to get your transformation and finally be useful. Your teammates will rarely appreciate your light inting though, so prepare to get flamed a lot, when you get pressured into taking bad fights just so you can transform and actually feel useful. This exact one might be a bit tricky, but I still think there are good solutions here:

  • Make minions/monsters drop very low amounts of orbs. This should make it possible to still achieve your transformation in bad games without soft inting. Ganking/fighting should of course still be rewarded, and I don't think an afk farm Kayn should get his transformation before around 18 minutes, just make it possible. This will also fix the situations where you need like 2% to fill your meter, so you towerdive a full health Sion just to take 10% off his hp pool so you can back to base and finally get your transformation. (Happens more often than you think, at least for me)

Alright, that is everything for me, I really hope Riot does something to reduce the frustrations you get when you play this champion. I really like playing him in general, but god damn can he feel awful. EDIT: Tried to make the formatting a bit less painful

TLDR; fix Kayn's goddamn passive thx rito

28 Comments

TomiMan710/10/2018, 5:37:44 AM4 votes

Rework the Orbs so that there is only one kind of them, and they progress to both transformations instead of only one of them.

This is already the case. If you get 99% red orbs but you get the last 1% from blue you will get blue kayn.

  1. Kayn has terrible ganks early game, but is forced to gank way harder than most other champions.

Yes this is for balance purposes. Kayn is not supposed to be strong pre transformation.

The only legit problem you listed is that you cant ping your progress or that you can transform.

I honestly dont know how these posts gets even approved with so many false information.

Umbral Regent10/11/2018, 1:06:59 PM3 votes

Make Shadow Assassin Kayn more reliable and useful (His burst combo already deals a toxic amount of damage, so probaly best not to increase that. I would even suggest taking damage out of his kit for more tankiness/utility)...

As someone who plays primarily Shadow Assassin, his bonuses from picking Shadow Assassin are already heavily pushed towards utility. Increased Range and shadow-image casting on Blade's Reach, slow immunity and increased movement speed while Shadow Stepping, and increased range on Umbral Trespass, the only portion of his kit post-transformation that contributes to his damage is the post-mitigation magic damage conversion from The Darkin Scythe.

Everything else is stats (raw AD and damage scaling) and items (Duskblade of Draktharr in particular being a staple).

On top of that, taking away damage from an Assassin in exchange for tankiness doesn't exactly sound right, especially considering we're talking about an Assassin who can walk through walls and heal by doing so - as well as hide in someone's body for a second or two.

I think the biggest reason that Darkin seems (and I say "seems" here since I don't know higher-tier Kayn stuff, I'm middle tier at the absolute best) to be the better option is primarily due to his survivability and the CC attached to Blade's Reach. Being a drain-focused skirmisher is kinda what sets Rhaast apart from the nimble, "gone before you see your health drop" Assassin.

So, I don't think that the best way to look at whatever disparity there may be between Darkin/Shadow Assassin is to look at it as though Darkin is objectively more reliable or something, but to look at what the two forms are supposed to do.

Darkin is meant to push Kayn into a violent, team-fight loving skirmisher who excels at shredding and devouring tanks and fighters, whereas Shadow Assassin is meant to push him more towards making focused, intentioned picks on weak or isolated targets, favoring priority mages, enchanters, and marksmen.

So, the question would be then, how does one refine those playstyles without breaking the Champion in either case? You can't really have Darkin be too shred-heavy or survivable, else he'd just wreck shop 24/7 and be always picked, and you can't necessarily give Kayn more tools to do the murder thing or else he'll become too versatile and reliable and be always picked.

So, how do you further push the distinction between when you should pick Shadow Assassin, and when you should pick Darkin, without either becoming dominant?

Also; stray thought.

Rework the Orbs so that there is only one kind of them, and they progress to both transformations instead of only one of them. This one would also fix the problem when you're only 5% off on your meter to get Rhaast, and you literally have to ignore every enemy ranged champion in the game, until you can get those 2 auto attacks off on their melee champions. I have probaly gotten reported for not touching a lane under any circumstance, just because it had an enemy ranged champion in it.

This is good in theory, but I don't think it would work so well in practice, as it'd remove some of the skill test for Kayn players to try and earn the forms they want. Granted, Kayn is one of a scant few Champions who have to face some extraneous dilemma while Jungling (the other being the Kindred), but it does add to his skill curve/ceiling to have him have to decide on which form he wants to prioritize - and if he wants to prioritize it over certain, present events.

LittleOak10/16/2018, 9:24:28 PM3 votes

  1. I'm sure it's already been said, but if not, your transformation depends on the first orb to be absorbed upon reaching 100%. Many people think it's just the last attacked champion, but orbs are not collected until after you leave combat as Kayn, and they all rush towards you at that point. What I have discovered through playing many games of him in Twisted Treeline (where there are a lot of early team fights around the 8-12 minute times), if you are in a team fight and you know this will put your orbs earned over 100%, and you attack both ranged and melee champions, position yourself nearest the Orb for the form you want, and you will be granted that form. Other than that, you can gank a ranged champ 5 times, and the 6th time gank a melee and you'll get red form. Not specifically known but a thing to note when playing Kayn.

  2. While I agree that there need to be changes made, I don't think this is how to go about doing it. The fantasy of having to wait to overpower the clear winner of the fight between Kayn and Rhaast, is fun and is justified in gameplay. It incentivezes players to have to have a deeper understanding the champion, how he works, and make good macro-decisions to get the form you want and not have to wait for it. You just need one calculated dive or fight in the jungle with the right opposing champion to get the form you want.

  3. Kayn doesn't have good ganks early in solo queue, yes, but if you're in a coordinated team environment, I completely disagree with this statement. As I said previously, I play a lot of Kayn in 3s and Flex 5s, and if you coordinate with your team, Kayn can have some pretty effective ganks. Biggest issue with Kayn's passive is Riot for some reason, doesn't want Kayn to get his form change before 10 minutes (one item on champions about), giving his orb value scaling more with time. I fall into a category of "aggressive" Kayn players who played him before they took away the DoT procs of his passive which I thought were very fun. Taking Deathfire Touch and Corrupting Potion provided no help to the champion late game and in team fights, but made you a monster to duel 1v1, got him his form change as early as 6 minutes if you played aggressively enough, and allowed Kayn to be played in the Mid and Top lanes rather than jungle only. If I were in the position to change Kayn's passive, I would instead change each orb to equal 3, at all times in the game, give him back the ability to gain orbs off of DoT damage, give a bonus orb or two for hitting a combo, being in a sustained fight, or getting a kill, and see how that effects his gameplay in a controlled environment. Kayn has either been very oppressive or under-powered since his release, and his forms have never been on equal footing. If we want to change that, give him a wider array of ways to play him rather than trying to funnel him into a specific playstyle.

Ifneth10/11/2018, 6:39:14 PM2 votes

All these comments are excellent. I also recommend a simple one: Kayn just gets his transformation at Level 6. The orbs grant him experience based on his level.

Galiö10/9/2018, 11:59:30 PM2 votes

  1. His form depends on who you hit last.

  2. Most champions are match up reliant, but atleast Kayn has amazing clear for how meh of a champ he is.

  3. I think he is supposed to have a weak early for q string transformation... however his tranformations are just ok making his base form feel awful.

ReWeebdown10/10/2018, 8:17:33 AM2 votes

it tilts me so much when someone calls him red/blue kayn, ugh. It's Darkin and Shadow Assassin, or Rhaast and Kayn, idc, not that hard. But tbh, I think Kayn is in a pretty good spot rn. I used to only play him Darkin form because he felt so much stronger. But after they buffed him a couple patches ago I tend to go SA more often and its also a lot of fun. The only thing bugging me is that you cant ping your progress in transform and that the last person you hit is deciding what form you get first, so you're basically forced to gank top with a melee if u wanna get Rhaast or bot if u want SA Kayn. Its mostly match up depending how fast you can get your transform. If I'm against 'ungankable' lanes I like searching for some skirmishes with the enemy jungler in the river or even his jungle. Its not about killing them, just about collecting souls afap and then get out with e. He is easily outplayed and kited in my opinion but that is only fair since post-transformation hes eithers super tanky or just one shotting everyone. So yeah, that's my 2 cents

ModUlanopo10/9/2018, 11:41:03 PM1 votes

Approved.

King I Rat12/23/2018, 2:20:13 AM1 votes

I find Kayn to be fine. The orb mechanic allows you to make a gank worth it even if you don't get the kill. A good Kayn will get their form at level 4-5 simply by constantly skirmishing. His clear is disgustingly good to the point where picking constant short fights is fine cause you can still go farm afterwards. The last orb is all that matters, you fill the bar, then you pick a target for your form. I agree that it needs more visual clarity though since the current asset used for his form change I believe was ripped from Elementalist Lux where the form changes are linear.

His type of gameplay is unique in that getting your form is quite litterary a new game for you. I've had so many games where I have gotten my face grinded into the dirt only to turn it around once I got my form and it feels good. Makes you feel like a true anime edgelord who just reached their final form or whatever and you are finally ready to kick some ass.

Von Brohenheim10/10/2018, 2:24:39 PM1 votes

Buff W. I see two possibilities, neither mutually exclusive.

  1. Giving Shadow Assassin Kayn better scaling ratios on W makes him more reliable, by making him less worthless outside an all-in. This isn't going to magically turn him into Vel'Koz or Caitlyn. Giving him a poke tool comparable to Talon's W or Zed's Shurikens lets him be useful even when there's no isolated target or exposed backline opportunity.

  2. Adding more flat damage to W would help with his ganks. But, this is tricky, since Kayn typically puts 3 points in Q to clear faster. The flat damage would have to be at rank 1 to be impactful, since both Red Version and Blue Version won't be ranking it up again until level 7 or 8.

Ideally, I think increasing W damage at Rank 1 without changing the Rank 5 damage, while also bumping Shadow Assassin's AD ratio up, is the ideal change. Kayn W is currently +45 damage per level + 1.3 Bonus AD. We're looking at Lux and Veigar levels of damage jumping. Kayn already has a ridiculous level 1 mana pool, are you trying to get him to take Taliyah's place mid? Have Shadow Assassin change his title to Shadow Wizard, build AP, put his hair up and start carrying 3 floating shurikens around? +45 per level is absurd.

I think smoothing that out to 115/145/180/220/265 makes the most sense.

115 damage on an aimed skillshot means that if an enemy laner is out of position, or the allied laner provides some CC, Kayn has a much more reliable early gank. We're still hitting that important 180 at Rank 3, and the lost 5 damage at Rank 4 and 5 shouldn't be a major concern with Warrior enchant and Kayn just finishing up Black Cleaver or Duskblade.

Hi lm Zoe10/10/2018, 2:37:07 PM1 votes

Agree with everything except the 2nd one, idk why u complain about blue Kayn, for me he is 10x times better because I like the movement speed items u build on him and then I can get 1k ms (Only in base tho) + u can activate ur Youmuu's & have ur Boots of Mobility and then u can kill ur target in 0.25 seconds

Vlada Cut10/11/2018, 9:13:21 AM1 votes

I like the sound of that, one orb type to pick any of the two forms early and visible progression. Seems like a quality of life change. For Shadow assasin I'd like to have more HP or maybe even be interactive enough with item 3053.

Hügö10/12/2018, 12:06:17 PM1 votes

I would like to change the orb system. Just make 1 type of orb to get any transfomration but increase the ammount you need a bit. I think you get to heavily punished when you can't get the form fast enough or even worse you get the wrong form and have to wait another 4 minutes.

Anghellous10/26/2018, 4:29:20 PM1 votes

The only part of this post I agree with is the lack of clarity on the passive and inability to ping progress.

Kayn is capable of taking the most creative gank routes (or routes in general) in the game while also having some OK damage to boot. Sure, he's no Lee Sin, Kha'Zix, or Xin Zhao in terms of raw killing potential early, but he's no slouch either. On top of that, unless the enemy ranged champ is some sort of hyper mobile champ, ranged champs are far juicier to gank than melees since almost half the melee roster will utterly trash base Kayn unless your team is able to help QUICKLY. Compare ganking a Darius, Renekton or Talon to ganking a Jhin, Xerath or Teemo.

Also, you are in no way forced to spam gank to get orbs (bar fills faster the later the game is). I'll agree that staying in base form for too long IS bad, but you're not forced to hard int for your transformation.