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Manamune and Muramana thoughts

Doc Wood·10/3/2018, 4:24:18 PM·17 votes·25,903 views

There is an item that is only viable on one champion.

After the reworks of Yorick and Urgot and changes to Jayce, Varus and even Corki (going way back here), nobody seems to buy it anymore. I am talking of course of Manamune and Muramana.

There are enough AD-casters. Why would this item not be good on Miss Fortune, Kog'Maw, even Jinx (cause she can stack it with her rockets so easily) Or Spell-heavy Melee bruisers? Darius, Fiora also have an easy time stacking it up.

Well, I have done the math and it just doesn't work. Almost nobody gets enough AD and on-hit damage to make the purchase worth it.

Miss Fortune actually does considerable damage with her Q on-hit, so Muramana damage does mathematically pay off when completed, but still it is probably better just to stack lethality and snowball your lane.

This item should be reworked, so that it is a viable scaling option for ADCs to go for, if you can afford to delay your power spike. But the way the item is now, you can stack the tear all you want, in the end the damage is mediocre at best and will only delay purchasing lifesteal and armor pen, which just give way more bang for your buck.

I have come up with an active for Muramana and would like to hear your opinion on it. UNIQUE ACTIVE: Mana Fury. Instantly consume 20% of your current mana and gain a portion of the mana consumed as decaying bonus Attack Damage for 5 seconds.

This would actually give you considerable damage late game. I think it is more than fair to have this item outscale other items when it comes to flat damage, as it doesn't give you crit, lifesteal, attack speed, percent health damage or really anything but flat damage.

This active would be pretty ''broken'', but remember it is late game scaling, so you have a very delayed power spike when going for Muramana. Also, to benefit from it fully, you would have to use it with a full mana bar, as the bonus AD from the active scales with the flat ammount of mana consumed, which is also 20% of your current mana. Mana/management is key and there is counterplay for the enemy. If they keep a good look at your mana bar at all time, they can see when you used the Muramana active and disengage accordingly, trying to reset the fight.

These are my thoughts on the AD tear item. Leave a comment if you want :)

16 Comments

Von Brohenheim10/5/2018, 4:05:06 AM4 votes

It suffers from the same problem as its AP counterpart: the "reward" for delaying your power spike doesn't justify the delay. On paper, it sounds really good, but in game, getting Stormrazor or Duskblade and using the early game power gets you more gold overall that an unstacked Manamune wouldn't.

I did the math to prove my point, and got a lot of stats about usage and "well it works on tank anivia" for my trouble. Apparently, if 1 in 12 Orianna players and 1 in 8 Karthus players jump off a bridge, it's a viable option, regardless of the 220 ft drop until you hit the water.

I wish you better luck with your thread.

Pokemonred20010/4/2018, 11:05:46 AM3 votes

An idea I got from the changes to item 3003 earlier this year regarding item 3004 was to chance the recipe from:

item 3070 + item 1037 + 675 Gold (Total Cost: 2400 Gold) to item 3070 + item 1027 + item 3133 + 800 Gold (Total Cost: 3000 Gold), and change the base stats from 25 AD and 250 Mana to 40 AD and 500 Mana + 10% Cooldown Reduction. Additionally, the mana gained per stack on Manamune would go from +5 to +6 per mana charge.

While the item ultimately becomes more expensive, the updated build path (and the slightly more useful build path, since Caulfield's Warhammer grants CDR and can be built from Long Swords) grant the item more broad usability for a larger class off champions than JUST Ezreal.

Ezreal himself would likely benefit a little bit, but the increased price delays his spike with the item, so it could potentially balance out.

(As for that active, it seems... incredibly obnoxious. I think Muramana's current passive is fine, but its poor stats cause it to be outshined by several other items on AD casters, such as item 3071 and item 3508)

Alzon10/4/2018, 7:51:48 PM1 votes

Any changes to Manamune/Muramana have to be Ezreal-neutral. I think the first step to making the item viable on more champions would be making melee autos apply two stacks. This would let melee champions more reliably stack the item versus ranged champions without having them stack it overall any faster than ranged champions could.

Second, raise Manamune/Muramana’s slot efficiency without adding CDR. Ezreal shouldn’t get more CDR in his early build. Instead, the item could grant even more mana at a higher price. This way, the item does more of what it’s supposed to do - give hella mana - while also increasing the AD it gives. Another option instead of raising the price is to raise the mana and lower the mana ratio(s).

Finally, raise mana costs for mana-using AD casters, while lowering their base damages and raising their AD scalings and mana per level. Imagine Varus losing 10/20/30/40/50 base damage on his Q and 10/15/20/25/30 on E, while increasing their AD ratios by 0.2 (tAD for Q, bAD for E). His on-hit build would hardly be dead, and his AD build would be buffed slightly - but then we raise their mana costs by -10/0/10/20/30 and add a 50 mana cost to the W active. Suddenly, on-hit Varus can’t max E and spam it for unavoidable poke anymore, but it costs less if he keeps it at rank 1 and maxes W instead. His lategame is virtually unchanged, since he has an extra 15 mana or so per level (150 more at level 11) and doesn’t use his spells except to pop Blight stacks anyway.

But AD caster Varus still has to watch his mana as he maxes Q, while stacking Tear/Manamune. He can’t just rush Lethality or Hexdrinker, either, as his mana costs are too high. He also gets more out of raw AD as the game progresses, gradually more than making up for the lost base damage.

Now imagine champions like Gangplank, Darius, Miss Fortune, Lucian, and Blitzcrank (hehexd) receiving similar changes (although Darius would require much higher mana costs to justify AD ratio increases, due to his passive). They will have generally weaker early games and stronger late games. Thus slowing down their contribution to the game and making them worse in the current meta, but hopefully better in 2019. Although Darius will need other nerfs, particularly in regards to his Triforce synergy...

Zeppelins circus10/6/2018, 9:38:52 PM1 votes

I miss the times Khazix could proc it like 6 times in a row and make his W nuke tipped missiles becase his passive procs applied muramana, and his passive also proced on W.

BLACK REALM GOD10/7/2018, 5:36:53 PM1 votes

i build it on random champs for fun. it has its scenario.

Flashes10/10/2018, 3:20:48 AM1 votes

I have to disagree with your reworked idea of Manamune, because we already have an example of how well that works out.

item 3907

120 Base AP with a potential for up to 80 AP is insane on paper, but in reality it doesn't pay off as well as one might expect, simply because the boost can't be reliably used.

Safety is still supreme in nearly all situations unless you can guarantee damage with minimal damage in return, which is the basis for trading.

The situations where Spellbinder is actually useful is basically zero.

Plus, why would anyone run an AD steroid when they could just get constant AD boosts through Duskblade/Lethality in general?

ModKnightsKemplar10/4/2018, 3:20:56 AM1 votes

Approved!

Shizuo10/10/2018, 1:34:37 PM1 votes

I also thought about Manamune/Tear/Archangel's Staff a lot and came to the conclusion, that the only real issue with those is that you have to build them early to be effective at all.

If they would be redisigned in a way that you start with a different base-value of mana for every few Minutes of the game, starting from 10 minutes,

like 10 min = 350 Mana / 15 min = 500 Mana / 20 min = 650 / 25 min = 800 Mana / 30 Min = 1000 Mana or similar values,

it would be an item choice worth considering for a lot more Champions, because you wouldn't be forced to purchase it as the first Item. I actually suppose a similar mechanic for Rod of Ages.

It wouldn't be broken but simply more flexible. At the same time I think you should be limited to one Tear-item with this redesign.

An alternative to this would also be to give it 10% CDR for 100 or 200 more cost. This would make it more interesting for Ezreal, as well as for Varus, MF and some others, but i still prefer my first idea.

Vexilus10/4/2018, 9:30:28 AM1 votes

I agree the item is mediocre. But the active you described would be too powerful and make it another up front damage item that has been a problem recently.

Increasing its base damage from 25 to 45 would be a good buff, the problem is any change inherently buffs ezreal.