There is NO purpose in total AD scalings.

Baron Von Scrub··13 votes·12,704 views

Please note: Not a single damage value or scaling in all of League of Legends is changed by this proposal.

TL;DR. % Total AD can be broken up into % Base AD and % Bonus AD. The base AD component can be grouped in with the base damage of the relevant spell. This is a good thing because it makes base damages and scalings on these abilities tweakable independently, all whilst not changing a single value in LoL.


ORIGINAL POST:

What is the point of total AD scalings when they can be converted to a higher base damage + bonus AD %? Yes, you used to be able to change base AD with Sterak's, but now it's a defunct mechanic on SR after the Sterak's rework.

Why bother? Because it makes difficult champions easier and fairer to balance. Let me explain.


If you want to buff a total AD champion's damage scaling, this is currently impossible without tweaking their base damages also, which tanks benefit from, and this can have the exact opposite effect than intended, as high base damages can mean less need to build damage, particularly when tank items are safer.

BUT. This can be converted numerically identically into a better formula, as seen here. (Skip over the next section if you don't like a little algebra, but I assure you it's sound.)


y% Total AD = y% Base AD + y% Bonus AD

This means that an ability that does

x + y% total AD damage

can also be written a

z + y% bonus AD,

where z = x + y% base AD


This means that you can now change AD scaling without giving free base damages, thus properly incentivising building damage without the unintended consequences of also buffing tank builds.

These cases, where damage goes up per level rather than per skill rank, already exist in the game, and are generally represented in tooltips by white text, so this does not add anything new to the game or the code.

An example of where this would be practical and beneficial.


A prominent case where this causes issues is on my beloved Gravedigger's ghouls, as explained here:

https://boards.oce.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/4TmmEEaz-yorick-ghoul-formula-is-inconvenient-and-untransparent-solution

Currently, ghouls scale too well without building AD, and too poorly WHEN building AD. By separating the base and bonus components, you can nerf the base damages whilst buffing the bonus scaling, making the balancing nightmare that is Yorick far more handlable, especially since the MMR discrepancy in his winrate is in part given rise by the reliable scalings in low MMRs but lack of gold-based reward in high MMRs.

The ability to separate ghouls' scalings from bases means that skilled players may be rewarded whilst less skilled may be nerfed, allowing a relative shrink in the MMR winrate discrepancy, and making Yorick a less frustrating champ both to play AS and against.


But, this wouldn't be a fair analysis without viewing the cons too! Just what is it that makes this such a seemingly unattainable move by Riot, when the ability to better balance champs would improve the playerbase's experience?


Actually, there's just one con.


Riot would have to do a one patch overhaul of a number of champs - and nothing intensive, just a shift of numbers.

Yep. That's it. All that stands between Riot and a more balanceable game is the decision to actually do it.


Cheers for reading.

12 Comments

Done258 votes

Total AD is there so that a champion will slowly scale in power over time and levels rather than spiking really hard at level 9 with their main damage spell.

Dicerson1 votes

The same thing can be accomplished by increasing the base damage of the main damage spell in question at each level. If they want more damage, they gotta drop ranks on it.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

The same thing can be accomplished by increasing the base damage of the main damage spell in question at each level. If they want more damage, they gotta drop ranks on it.

You're making zero sense and contradicting yourself. Either you tie to to champion level (Rakan Q healing) or you tie skill power to its rank.

And I literally just said that total AD is used to provide a smoother power curve from level 1 to 18. That's literally the reason they use it. They did it to Garen so he didn't walk back to lane with a Brutalizer at lv 6 and ignite auto Q E R someone to death with a single rotation. Assuming he didn't just kill them at level 2~3.

Vekkna2 votes

And I literally just said that total AD is used to provide a smoother power curve from level 1 to 18

If they wanted to do that, they could have base AD ratios on abilities that are separate from bonus AD ratios, right? Or just have per-level base damage scaling that exists elsewhere (eg Zyra plants).

You say it's a smoother power curve because you're thinking of Garen as your example. The problem becomes more apparent when you look at the way total AD ratios lead to burst snowball, item abuse, and balance problems on champs like MF, Lucian, Wukong, Ezreal, etc.

Wukong's ult is probably the best example here. At level 6 with no items, his ult deals 449 damage. This is already pretty strong when compared to similar abilities, like the 300 max damage on Kennen's level 6 ult. But Wukong's ult damage goes on to increase by a full 15% before his next skill rank. Not only that, but the scaling from bonus AD is 4.4; again, compare that to Kennen's 1.5 AP. If you normalize for gold cost per point of AD/AP at a 1.56 : 1 ratio, Wukong's AP-equivalent ratio would be 2.8 and Kennen's AD-equivalent ratio would be 2.3. The point here is that Wukong's total AD ratio is not justified by poor scaling with bonus stats.

Now again, if we're comparing % damage increase between skill ranks, Wukong is generally in line with averages. Wukong's level 11 ult damage without items is ~200% of the damage at level 6. Kennen's ult at rank 2 is 187% of the rank 1 damage. But despite not being a massive difference, it becomes pretty apparent that the per-level damage increase from base AD growth is basically just free damage tacked onto the ability. This is egregiously true of Lucian's ult in particular.

So you may be correct that the power curve is smoother, but it's also steeper. Given the example above (which applies generally in analogous comparisons), a smoother and steeper power curve is nothing but pure advantage. If you give a champ like that an advantage in gold and/or level, they double-dip the advantage in ways most champs cannot. That leads to balance problems we've observed, such as burst snowballing on the champs I mentioned.

This doesn't present itself in the same way when the base AD ratios are on a champ building mostly or pure tank.

1 Wing1 votes

{quoted}

And I literally just said that total AD is used to provide a smoother power curve from level 1 to 18.

that "smoother power curve" is the problem.

A lot of games, I don't buy an item for 15 minutes even. If you're "just getting more powerful." I'll die. Good for you and your "smooth power curve."

EDIT: Yah, okay: I beat you top. We fight 7 minutes. Bot lane kicked in: TP; dragon fight. "Kennen, why aren't you at top." After I gank mid after. Then I run back to top; full points. Game still going. Yorik hasn't built damage. If Yorik isn't abusing his ghouls, he loses 100% and I don't need any items.

EDIT 2: Oh, yah: When Yorik abuses his ghouls, I have to go to base immediately. Vs: me winning 100%, if the player doesn't focus one specific move, and does nothing but one move, and Yorik didn't build damage, and he remains completely oppressive; and his damage enhances his regular auto attack. He needs to be an AP champion again. That's all Yorik is, and lets not start on ___ or _____

Leaf on Bush5 votes

Base AD scaling is used for spells that are supposed to grow more powerful with level ups even if you don't build offensive items. Saying that there is no purpose isn't justified. If you can't acknowledge this simple truth then there is NO purpose in this discussion, other than teaching you the game.

Vekkna2 votes

Base AD scaling is used for spells that are supposed to grow more powerful with level ups even if you don't build offensive items.

Show me an ability that scales off base AD only. I'll wait.

If you can't acknowledge this simple truth then there is NO purpose in this discussion, other than teaching you the game.

If that was true, there would be base AD ability scaling in the game. Instead we have total AD, which is distinct from base AD. Can you acknowledge that simple truth?

Galiö4 votes

What an account name... I cant get passed it long enough to full absorb the information of this post.

The Bad Touch2 votes

Yep can't get past name long enough to care about post.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Approved!

Daddy Ants1 votes

Then change Yoricks ghouls scaling to bonus AD.

A lot of champions have total ad scalings that work fine in their kits.

Raven is Alice1 votes

You're using Yorick as an example but it's a bad example. Yorick is intended to be a bulky champion who builds a few offensive items and then defensively. That's the build pattern for most juggernauts and exactly the reason why they have high base stats. Juggernauts are supposed to be in prolonged fights while being in the middle of the fight with no mobility or easy escapes. This fundamentally means they need to be able to build bulky and still be efficient. The problem with rewarding people for building full AD Yorick is that isn't really rewarding the right thing. It's rewarding people to build like an idiot. Build the champion properly, don't expect riot to change formulas to make your off-build better. Would really be no different from me making a post about how they should increase all of Jhin's base damage so I can build him tank. A juggernauts most efficient build is SUPPOSED to be like 25-33% offense and 66-75% defense. He's not supposed to be a hyper damage carry.

A better way to balance the game is to look at champions in a case by case basis rather than a blanket "remove base AD scaling"

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