Boards›[ARCHIVED] Gameplay+

Finding the Bucket Instead of Fixing the Leak; What Can We Do to Change This?

Hibeki·8/21/2018, 10:15:02 PM·38 votes·33,113 views

Recently over the past 3 seasons or so, I've very much noticed that balance choices tend to hinder on nerfing or buffing the effect, instead of looking to change the root of the issue. Especially with items and problems that arise from them.

For example, both and were huge problems with and . Riot decided the best course of action was to nerf and by preventing you from building both with a unique passive, much like and , while also nerfing and to stop them from going crazy.

and still cause a tremendous amount of problems though, and basically just moved over for the next abuser to come in and smash with it.

The proper solution would be to nerf/remove the two items entirely, which would fix the vast majority of abusers, then buff anyone who overly relied on it. Admittedly, buffs would be in order for SOME.

The problem I have is when riot takes this path, they buff TOO MUCH to get them to the point where they were before without the item.

For example, when got nerfed, received compensation buffs/nerf tweaks. The buffs were too much, and they removed the nerf portion. Now is going crazy again but this time its not because of .

The poor feedback they receive leads me to believe that when they do this, they are met with backlash. Not because of the path they took, but because of the overbuffs, which riot perceived as backlash to the path instead.

My question is, what can we and riot do to solve this? Our feedback seems to be taken in a way its not meant to, while riot seems to take paths to avoid solutions in response to negative feedback. Buffs receive less negative feedback, so when A and B need to be taken to equal levels, instead of nerfing B and getting backlash, they buff A.

I can understand their viewpoint, but this just leads to bigger problems. What if, later, B gets nerfed because they were too strong against C, well now A is just too strong. Buffing leads to more problems than it solves unless absolutely necessary.

This question is to both Riot and us, What can we do to further clarify negative feedback while also still trying to retain a correct path?

36 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer8/21/2018, 10:19:39 PM7 votes

Thread Approved.

FixHealsRemoveGW8/22/2018, 11:56:33 AM6 votes

I absolutely 200% ... disagree.

Having items that have synergy with champions or are very good against other champions is part of the game.

WIth the exact same logic that was presented here we could also remove item 3078 or item 3071 or item 3100 item 3146 item 3285 item 3504 item 3174 item 3193 item 3123 item 3165 Actually I don't even know where to stop, I could probably list all items....

All champions have a power budget and items are a part of that, so you look at winrates and you just try to find a compromise. And you need to see the winrate in the context of the current meta too.

Zed going crazy, when everyone picks squishy champions to 1 shot you with, that's not surprising at all since everything is a potential kill and you can see that with patch 8.16 his winrate is dropping very clearly, because Riot incentivized another meta change with this patch, which I don't like and I don't think it was necessary and players should have done it on their own, but that is another discussion.

I would recommend that you stop saying item "abuser" when champions just use items that they are allowed to use by design.

Removing is not a compromise. It's extremist thinking, good solutions are never that simple.

So what can you do? You could actually try to understand the steps that Riot took and the compromises they tried to find, instead of speculating about it.

DragonIgnis8/22/2018, 8:42:47 AM3 votes

Stormrazor and Duskblade might have their numbers overtuned but I understand why the concept of the items is in the game.

item 3147 is there to allow Divers and AD Asssassins to access extra damage instead of adding that damage onto all of their kits. It creates a common denominator. If all assassins overperform, Riot can nerf duskblade. If all assassins seem weak, Riot can buff duskblade. Riot's mistake was buffing assassins at the same time they nerfed duskblade. Both duskblade and assassins were overperforming but Riot decided to let assassin maintain power. Duskblade can be helpful in letting Riot balance but they have to use it correctly.

item 3095 is supposed to fill in a niche. That niche might be a toxic niche since it's a crit-based periodic burst combo. Stormrazor is supposed to be used on champs that hit hard once and then have to wait. For example, Gangplank uses Stormrazor on his barrels. Riot added Stormrazor to fill the shoes of the old infinity edge. IE no longer has a 25% chance to deal 250% damage. Instead, Stormrazor has a 100% chance to deal 160 to 200% damage. Theoretically, Stormrazor is healthier than the old IE since it takes out the RNG.

After Riot makes Stormrazor and Duskblade mutually exclusive, they should be less of a problem. Of course, Stormrazor is still too cheap and Duskblade has too many abuse cases but Riot can fix those too. Neither item has to be deleted; they just need to be balanced better.

pkScary8/22/2018, 1:49:55 AM2 votes

You're basically describing the iterative process of game design. League of Legends is a living, breathing, beast; which is constantly evolving not only to address balance issues but also keep the game fresh. There will always be idiosyncratic issues like the broken item interactions you described.

In terms of Riot preferring to buff over nerf: this may be true, but over the last several patches I've seen lots of buffs AND nerfs. I'm not sure that Riot is so afraid of nerfing that they actually avoid it to the detriment of the game. I think it was 8.15 or 8.14 where almost the entire patch was nerfs.

In short, I think what you're describing are the pains of iterative game design, but this is also the best way to design games that we know.

Edge of Daybreak8/22/2018, 2:35:22 AM1 votes

Imo I don't think there is a way to fix the sort of issues league has when it comes to champions with single target burst because at their core it's all they offer and if they cannot do that effectively then they have no reason to exist. Wukong being our most recent talked about example post nerfed he just kind of died out because he wasn't effective at his one job. We have an almost entire subset of ap and ad champions who can either one shot you or they are just useless and while it is fun for the user it is awful for the recipient. As for the feedback it's hard for riot to do anything because they keep trying to balance for two completely separate skill levels. For all of the complaints we see daily about duskblade and assassins this pro season has arguably been the least we have ever seen assassins and duskblade in the pro scene. Riot tries to keep buffing assassins to make them a viable choice in pro but all it does is make them stronger in solo queue while doing nothing in pro play because numbers aren't the issue their kits just aren't good unless the numbers are super inflated.

In my eyes if we want to give better feedback we should limit ourselves to supporting threads that are actually decent and well thought out feedback. The amount of upvotes you see on threads that just call for people to be fired or fuck X thing is alarming when the feedback is so awful but people are supporting it and that's what riot sees people support. However I don't see a way for most players to give meaningful feedback for a game they barely understand. Most people aren't going to be able to think about the complex interactions of balance but anyone can understand someone hating laning against say Zoe. At best we can vent but that doesn't help.

If I had to pull the pin on it I would just say ignore lower mmr and focus on balance from the top them work down. Or let things sit for much longer periods of time as player perception can change without direct nerfs or buffs to champions/items.

Zaghyr8/22/2018, 3:44:55 AM1 votes

Part of the problem is that both items provide up-front burst damage. item 3147 should not exist the way it currently does because it grants assassins damage in a way that provides no counterplay and lets them still assassinate even if they miss their skills. item 3095 provides upfront burst damage that serves as an overbearing poke tool. There would be no need to make these items' passive not work together if they had different effects in the first place.

I have rework suggestions for both.

For item 3147 it could work like a spellblade item whose bonus on-hit damage would scale with base AD and a % of the target's missing HP, maybe 4% missing hp. This way they still get damage, but it is much weaker and makes the item more rewarding if you land your skills and would shift some of there power from one-shotting a target to finishing off a target.

For item 3095 I would rework it into an AD+AS item 2015 item. The energize bonus would be called WIND SCARS and it would make your next 3 basic attacks deal some bonus magic damage, maybe 20-60 per hit for 60-180 total. This way is has a better build path for champions, it is more focused on DPS, and it cannot be spammed every couple seconds. This would still accomplish the goal of the item empowering you when you first enter combat, and it gives the item better and more fair windows of power.

Anei Neko8/22/2018, 6:09:42 AM1 votes

Honestly, the only way I can think of to"fix" the buff/nerf issue just completely redoing every number from scratch. Including champion stats, items, runes, everything. Massive testing at several levels to verify how they interact. Basically one huge buff/nerf to everything at once to get things to intended levels. However, that does not seem feasible to actually do, plus it doesn't take into account reworks and new champs already in the pipeline. I guess I'm really just saying that the current method is the most feasible we have.

Raiyza8/22/2018, 6:00:28 PM1 votes

I don't see what's so wrong with lowering the damage duskblade and stormrazor provide.

The stats on duskblade is fine. The issue is that absurd burst damage it gives on the first auto. Lower that and the item is balanced.

As for Stormrazor, the window of time needs to be increased by probably 1-1.5 seconds. That way Jhin can't just spam it without losing damage, and it'll force the ADC to pick their moment after the first proc if they want a strong crit.

Solidair38/23/2018, 2:15:20 PM1 votes

Nerf/remove the two items entirely? Should we just remove the entire item system then, since every champ is going to find a way to abuse certain items? That's ridiculous.

GreatWhiteNorth8/25/2018, 7:03:03 AM1 votes

So your roof is leaking and you want to find a bucket instead of fix the leak?

ZT Xperimentor9/1/2018, 12:53:39 AM1 votes

Follow-through would help immensely, instead of riot going back on their word patch to patch.

Electro5228/21/2018, 10:19:54 PM1 votes

Approved!

Daddy Ants8/21/2018, 10:23:29 PM1 votes

Wouldn't the best course of action be to give them the Hydra treatment?

Make them not able to be purchased together.

Thorn Fierce Red8/21/2018, 10:25:58 PM1 votes

Hibeki, who is ur main champ?