As a Talon main, I believe Talon needs a nerf.

aZ3R0n·8/25/2018, 8:56:20 PM·19 votes·28,000 views

I first discovered post-rework Talon's potential when I began playing him in Bloodmoon. I learned that Talon is capable of crossing the map quickly to access objectives and kills, he almost always has an escape path, and the true invis from his ult gives him lots of room to set up a play. It was easy for me to cross the map, place some vision, farm some ghosts, and then use the buff to easily locate and kill any enemy I wanted with a clean escape with his E.

So I started playing him in norms, and within 2 or 3 weeks I had a shiny Mastery 7 badge. I believe that playing Talon has greatly improved my style of play, because playing Talon encourages constant moving. It enables you to focus on helping your teammates secure kills and objectives, and I feel like Talon has the most impact on the outcome of a match than any other champion I have learned to play.

I started playing in Season 5, and until a few weeks ago I have always been on WiFi with a meh computer. Now that has changed, and I am able to play with a steady, lightning-fast connection with a perfect 60 fps even on the highest visual settings. That can only mean one thing: It's time to play ranked.

I was placed in Bronze 1 two weekends ago after 6 wins and 4 losses. 2 of those losses had afks and/or legitimate trolls that went out of their ways to make us lose the match. Last weekend I ranked up to Silver 5, and just moments ago I finished winning 6 matches in a row to bump myself up to Silver 4.

Not really a big deal, Silver 4, as I'm still near the very bottom of the food chain. What is outstanding, however, is the stats I'm seeing at the end of these matches when checking the brand new Stats feature in my profile. The KDAs are nice, sure, but I'm seeing how effective my playstyle is at securing objectives through fighting with the team and roaming to help other lanes early.

I'm probably going to keep climbing to at least high Silver effortlessly, but while playing these matches in ranked and after hundreds of matches in norms, I have to admit that Talon is very overwhelming. R E Flash Q catches squishies off guard with no chance of escape with a Duskblade proc. The constant moving around the map means that a veteran Talon player will never be caught with all nearby terrain on cooldown. The low cooldown of Talon's E means that he will outrun almost any other champion and can easily get out of many sticky situations, especially if used in conjunction with his R to give him true invisibility. In many team fights, I am able to apply damage, E out, flank, and then re-enter the fight with cooldowns back. Talon can engage with a good W Q combo into a teamfight and then be in the perfect position to apply damage to multiple enemies with R while having an easy escape.

I can keep going, but the point is that Talon has many advantages that most other assassin champions do not have. Akali is bound to her smokescreen to survive teamfights, Yasuo must play around his windwall, Zed is bound to his shadows' locations, etc. but Talon doesn't have these issues. He is free to flank into a fight from one direction and then escape in the other. He simply has too many ways to enter a fight and then still has many ways to survive.

Talon is pretty broken, even after the recent nerf to Rake, and it's surprising that more players in low elo don't pick him up or at least ban him.

Honestly, I think a large portion of these issues can be solved with some minor changes to his E. Giving his E a minor mana cost would make leaping across the map less viable, or changing Talon to being energy-dependent would mean that using E to travel would put him at a disadvantage if he tried to fight without full energy. Alternatively, E could have a higher cooldown between leaps. I honestly don't even feel the 2 second cooldown because it takes that long to travel from most terrain edges to the next. A 5 second cooldown would mean that Talon players would need to be sure they can commit before they leap, and it would also prevent Talon from traveling from one lane to the next at supersonic speed before enemy teams can react.

Anyway, there is my two cents. Sure sure, I'm just some guy who just managed to rank up to Silver 4 with 6 wins in a row, but my experience with Talon tells me that he does indeed need to be tuned down just a bit to make him a tad less impactful and easier to play against. The late game falloff just isn't enough, and I've been countering it with Gathering Storm pretty well.

I'd like to hear some thoughts from other Talon players, and also from those who are a bit annoyed when they run into Talons on the Rift.

18 Comments

Fízz v28/28/2018, 5:26:14 PM5 votes

I also think he needs a nerf, but I hope if Riot does decide to nerf him, they increase the damage on his return-W again. Its by far the hardest part of his kit to get off and should be rewarding to hit/punishing to not dodge.

Plus it sucks to be unable to wave clear without Tiamat on a champ that was built for roaming.

Warlord Rhinark8/28/2018, 1:54:28 PM4 votes

I think the biggest problem with Talon is his high early game base damage and mobility.

If I could choose, I'd change these things:

Passive damage changed to 50 - 250 (+ 200% bonus AD) from 75 - 245 (+ 200% bonus AD).

(Ranged) Q damage decreased to 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 (+ 100% bonus AD) from 65 / 90 / 115 / 140 / 165 (+ 110% bonus AD).

(Melee) Q critical strike damage increased to 200% from 150% for a total of 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 / 300 (+ 200% bonus AD) from 97.5 / 135 / 172.5 / 210 / 247.5 (+ 165% bonus AD).

Q healing increased to 25 - 100 (based on level) from 20 - 71 (based on level).

Q target range decreased to 500 from 575.

Melee/Ranged Q Range threshold increased to 175 from 170.

W damage decreased to 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+ 40% bonus AD) from 50 / 65 / 80 / 95 / 110 (+ 40% bonus AD).

W return damage increased to 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 60% bonus AD) from 70 / 85 / 100 / 115 / 130 (+ 60% bonus AD).

Slow amount decreased to 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% from 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60%.

Cooldown increased to 10 seconds from 9 seconds.

Angle increased to 25° from 22°.

In addition to the cooldown on walls, E now works on a charge system.

Cooldown between casts is still 2 seconds, but it takes 10 seconds for a charge to cooldown.

Maximum unit range decreased to 750 from 800 units.

Target range increased to 750 from 725.

Terrain cooldown decreased to 50 / 40 / 30 / 20 / 10 seconds from 160 / 135 / 110 / 85 / 60 seconds.

R damage increased to 100 / 150 / 200 (+ 100% bonus AD) from 90 / 135 / 180 (+ 100% bonus AD).

R bonus movement speed changed to 25 / 50 / 75% from 40 / 55 / 70%.

Effect radius decreased to 500 from 550.

Modl Ryden l9/5/2018, 7:50:43 PM2 votes

As overloaded as kits tend to get nowadays, he could use a few new tricks under his cloak. I like the usefulness of his E but in terms of damage and numbers it does jack shit. It's only purpose at rank 1 is to cross terrain. It's only purpose at rank 5 is to cross terrain and on rare occasions close gaps. It grants no combative advantages. The only benefit you get is the terrain cooldown and even then you can control by building more CDR anyways. It even has a built in drawback which I don't think is very coherent to the ability itself. Like he's tumbling in mid air but somehow a basic attack slows down the dash speed?

Cassiopeia passive you can understand because her model physically has no feet to purchase boots with. But she can circumvent this problem with landing her Q and gain the movement speed boost that way OR have enemies stand in her W to keep them in range for her onslaught of Es.

Vi Q, even though you are losing movement speed charging you will be able to launch yourself further and faster than the distance you would have lost and do more damage at the end of it's dash. Not trying to say it's a reward for being patient, that's not what I'm trying to say.

What I'm saying is that these are self inflicted drawbacks rather than drawbacks to an ability that can be caused by an external components. Talon has very little control of his E's speed if he positions it well enough. But at situations where you instinctively would want to use it to escape it's next to not an option.

His old E - Cutthroat at least gave a damage amplifier when you landed even when the ability itself alone did no damage. Not saying I want to reverted. I'm just saying it had something extra with it when you did blink in.

ZaFishbone8/28/2018, 8:25:04 AM1 votes

Talon is too binary. He is one of the assassin champions, like Fizz and Zed (before he became broken in the latest meta), who have an ult that is an all or nothing ability, which can guarantee them a kill, but which takes up so much of their power budget, that they have to take power away from their base abilities to compensate. Now I am NOT saying that their base abilities are necessarily weak, but that their ability to 100 to 0 without their ult is limited, and that they sometimes have big downtime on key abilities, that force them to only use those abilities for their all-in (example: Zed's shadow, with it's HIGH cooldown, which is compensated by giving Zed a huge amount of burst damage, this making him all the more an all in, nuclear burst, 100 to 0 champ).

SzGamer2278/29/2018, 7:40:53 PM1 votes

This is how I felt when I started playing Kayn. Everything about the champion feels overwhelming because it's the perfect champion for my play style; when I play the way that makes the most sense for me, I am heavily rewarded by what Kayn provides. I had a 8W 1L (89% WR) record in ranked last season and have a 18W 8L (69% WR) record this season. If you look at Kayn's stats on websites that compare champion winrates, however, you'll see that Kayn is very balanced, sitting at a win rate between 49-51% on every site you check.

I think this is a case of you finding your perfect champion rather than that of Talon being genuinely overpowered. It's bizarre picking up a new champion and then discovering that your ability to play the new champion completely blows away your performance on champions that you had a lot of experience with prior, but as someone who has experienced stunning success on (at the time of me starting) a brand-new champion, I can tell you it's not at all out of the realm of possibility.

You've found a champion that you can naturally play above the average level. Enjoy it!

Noor Sakata9/5/2018, 4:23:42 PM1 votes

Here is a thing , Talon isn't gonna get any kind of nerfs , yesterday he just got a new skin and this skin has to sell , if they will nerf then that will be later , not right now

Pubbi9/8/2018, 10:58:03 PM1 votes

I think moving some of his damage power into his passive would help. AKA make his Q/W do a little less damage in exchange for a little more damage on his passive. That would make his damage take a little bit longer to get off in the early game and make the window to fight back a little bigger.

ModKnightsKemplar8/28/2018, 12:02:47 AM1 votes

Approved!

ShadWooo9/22/2018, 5:18:55 PM1 votes

I started playing Talon myself because I had no fun in lol anymore playing Mages and Enchanters. And yes he is op. Simple champion that has really low skill cap with a high pick potential and burst. I also end up almost each game with 15+kills. However I don't think he needs nerf. Which assassin isn't "broken" now? He is actually dishing less damage than other assassins does as he is extremely reliant on passive proc. To proc passive you need to hit at least one autoattack **after **you hit enemy with 3 spells. That is however not that easy to do in teamfights or against champions with dash/blink. Yes you can use R, then jump wall, come close to enemy squishy and use aa-Q-AA-W-ignite however you will be unlikely to proc passive with this combo as most targets will immediately flash and you already used R and Q so you have no gapcloser or dodge the second part of W so you won't get 3 stacks. Also you will have hard time escaping from that position without ultimate.

If you are really fed then the R-E-aa-q-aa-W-ignite combo might be enough but the later game goes the less effective it will be.

On the other hand, if you jump in from flank then everyone will focus you immediately and you are forced to cast ult. That might even hit all champions but it will just tickle them even if you are fed. Then you have few seconds to decide if you try to proc passive on someone and die or just run away without achieving anything.

Also he has much harder time dealing damage to tanks and fighters. Compared with Zed, Zed can easily proc electrocute on fighter/tank without letting them damage him. You can't do that with Talon unless you burn ult which is nonsense. Yes you can avoid them and run away from them with ease but facing them is almost not an option.

Also, do not chase a talon is not memed. Even silvers know not to chase Singed and Janna (mostly) but almost everyone likes to burn flash to chase me when I play Talon and they rarely catch me. This is another reason he is so strong.

Koechophe8/28/2018, 12:41:36 AM1 votes

I actually don't mind talon as much as some of the other options. At least you can feisably avoid much of his damage and it's not frontloaded into a single second. He is also much weaker early in lane than others. If he was to be nerfed, the only thing I would touch is his cooldown on E, maybe make it take a bit longer before you can recast on a different wall. He's got clear weaknesses, and I'm not too bothered with him.

Assassins that do bother me are fizz, rengar and nocturn, mostly because you can't do anything about their damage.

Get Ogre Here8/28/2018, 3:07:22 AM1 votes

I honestly disagree that Talon needs a nerf. (Coming from a Talon main myself). While a few weeks ago he was very overpowered for a while, with the newer rune nerfs Talon already feels a lot weaker than he was. That's not even considering the upcoming Duskblade nerfs. Considering Talon is already at a sub-50% win rate (49.99% according to Champion.gg), I think the Duskblade nerfs may even put him in a slightly underpowered spot.

But before all of this, I thought the best course of action to nerf him was to increase his E and R cooldowns. Perhaps increase his E cooldown to 4 secs at all ranks and increase his R cooldown by 10 seconds at all ranks. That would make him much less slippery in general and make it a lot harder for him to engage/disengage.

What a lot of people don't seem to realize is how volatile of a champion Talon is. One small meta shift can send him flying to the top of the win rate charts, and a few indirect nerfs can send him to a mediocre win rate.

All in all, I think Talon is fine right now and he doesn't need nerfs at the current moment, but if at some point he does need nerfs, I think the cooldown changes will be the best way to go.