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Runes vs Runes Reforged: Improving gathering storm

TheSingularity·9/4/2018, 11:00:02 AM·13 votes·27,702 views
Gathering Storm

Currently, gathering storm fills the late-game rune slot for AP champions mainly, with a few AD champs picking it up, however with games being decided or ending by around the 30 minute mark, it rarely gets to ramp up to it's full potential. While the old scaling runes of ability power/attack damage filled the same role, those runes and gathering storm go at it in a slightly different way.

  • Gathering storm grants you a stack every 10 minutes, which in turn grants you 4.8 bonus Attack Damage or 8 Ability Power (adaptive)
  • The old runes would grant you X AP/AD per level, depending on what you chose.

Now to compare the reward of each: Runes of scaling attack damage: 2.82 AD per lvl, 50.76 AD at level 18 Runes of scaling ability power: 4.62 AP per lvl, 83.16 at level 18

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Gathering storm: 0/0 before 10 minutes, 4.8/8 @10 minutes, 14.4/24.0 @20 minutes, 28.8/48.0 @30 minutes and for the longest most games will go for, 100.8/168.0 @60 minutes

In my opinion, Gathering storm offers very sudden, but also very underwhelming rewards every 10 minutes until you start hitting the ultra late game stat rewards (40 minutes and over), instead of a gradual increase in power. And it just isn't worth taking in this meta compared to what we'd gain from old runes. At 30 minutes, about the average time to hit level 18 if things are going decently, with gathering storm you gain 28.8/48.0 AD/AP (adaptive). But with the old system we would have 50.76/83.16 ad/ap at that time. (remember we're in a high dmg meta now, but we gained more from these runes back then) That's almost double the value and we don't come close to evening out these values until 40 minutes where we gain 48/80 ad/ap.

As we can see, not only do the old runes grant superior stats for your everyday champion. But you also get a little bit of those stats every level instead of waiting for 10 minutes to get your first stat increase. This isn't without cost however. As if you fall behind, you'll be behind in levels and in turn stats. That's where gathering storm has the advantage. No matter what, every 10 minutes you get stats assuming you can stall.

So my proposal. Why not combine the 2? Have the perks of both systems all in one neat little rune Albeit with lesser early game stats to prevent it from being dominant, and granting compensation buffs to scorch/waterwalking to stop it from taking the top spot.

So:

Gathering storm: Reworked. Grants 1.82 AD/lvl or 3.62 AP/lvl (1 less than old system) adaptive. At level 18, grants 32.76 AD or 65.16 AP. At 5/10/15/20/25/30 minutes grants remaining stats equivalent to level 3/6/9/12/15/18 (so if you're behind you get an upgrade, if you're ahead you gain nothing). After 30 minutes, stat gains unchanged, so gain AD/AP every 10 minutes (could cut it down to 5 and half the bonus to make it smoother) **(see link for details) ** This is purely a rough estimation, can be adjusted if my estimates are way off.

They are straight buffs, however I'd me more than happy to have the numbers adjusted to match current gathering storm, just per lvl instead of per 10 minutes. However I used these values to display gathering storm's weakness and flaw. And it made the math easier (as the numbers were on a wiki rather than having to be worked out)

In order to compensate other runes in this line (so scorch and waterwalking). Add an ad/ap ratio to scorch and waterwalking (tbh they should have ratio's given their position on the tree).

So what're your thoughts? Would this make Gathering storm a more appetizing or viable rune? Or am I taking things a wee bit too far?

27 Comments

glava2229/8/2018, 4:02:22 PM6 votes

the problem with linear scaling per lvl is that it is much stronger early than the way gathering storm currently works, because you have been getting bonuses the whole time while with gathering storm you had to wait, lets say you get 1.7 ad per level, thats 5 ad at lvl 3, you basically have half of a longsword at lvl 3, which is much better than gathering storm in the early game, so if you wanted that kind of an effect you would have to nerf the amount received by a ludicrous amount which would make it quite a bit weaker late game. so maybe your suggestion could work but probably not with linear scalings

JoeAnarchy9/8/2018, 4:39:51 PM3 votes

we don't need to buff gathering storm, we need to nerf other things.. games just have to last longer.. a good game should last 45-50 minutes, not 20-25 mins.. if i wanted a fast paced game, i'd go play fortnite..

Speeedy9/25/2018, 7:33:54 PM3 votes

i think a power shift neutral will make the rune better, ticks every 5 minutes instead for half the 10 min value and you have a winner.

Dicerson9/21/2018, 8:14:45 AM2 votes

Agree with many others. It's Interval needs to be decreased so that it happens more often, and it could probably serve to scale slightly more. Perhaps 1+1AP/3 minutes per 3 minutes? Would lead to totals of

1 at Minute 0 3 at Minute 3 6 at Minute 6 10 at Minute 9 15 at Minute 12 21 at Minute 15 28 at Minute 18 36 at Minute 21 45 at Minute 25 55 at Minute 28 Etc. ? Perhaps capping it at a reasonable number so it doesn't get insanely out of hand?

Solidair39/11/2018, 4:27:32 PM2 votes

What about this version: After 10 minutes, gain a burst of stats, then every minute following the 10 minutes get more ad/ap, the amount of which increases slightly every 10 minutes.

This way, laning phase is less affected by a sudden burst of offensive stats, and then each minute past the 10 minute mark means an increase in ad/ap, and eventually scaling up and up until the game ends, which preserves the spirit of the rune, while also touching on the problem that comes up with games that end before 20 minutes or 30 minutes.

chipndip19/9/2018, 12:50:25 AM2 votes

Here's the thing:

Gathering Storm doesn't have a full potential. It scales forever, as long as the match is still in play. It's free stats until even the 3920th minute mark.

So if you want something that's effective when you hit lane, you take one of the other two. Waterwalking is always on in the river, and Scorch is always on even at level 1. Gathering Storm is good for champs that have decent use for the stats somewhere down the line. If you want to fight against being outscaled or something, you take it. Maybe the rune could be better implemented, but it isn't a major issue to me.

DeathBurst9/12/2018, 5:24:07 AM2 votes

The basic premise of this post, comparing Red/Marks in the old Rune system to Gathering Storm in Runes Reforged seems flawed to me.

Gathering Storm is 1 of 5 Minor Runes, whereas Marks were 1 of 3 Basic Runes. Moreover, Gathering Storm isn't the only source of raw stats, so if you want to compare the stats gained in the two system, you need to take into account, at the very least, the AD gained from going into the Sorcery Path.

All in all, there is absolutely no reason that Gathering Storm should provide a similar amount of AD to old scaling Marks.

Moreover you don't NEED this (faulty) comparison at all. The point you're trying to make, "Gathering Storm is too slow to come online, and with too brusque changes" (if I understood you correctly), that point stands on its own. Why introduce a partial and sketchy comparison to an outdated system when you can just talk about the current system itself?

For the "come online too late part": Talk about the amount of gold-equivalent stats it gives at various points in time compared to the average amount of gold collected at that time, for instance. Or compare it to alternatives like Scorch, and show that the break-even point happens too late compared to the average duration of the game.

For the "too brusque changes" part: I think this is mostly a question of perception more than actual power, so it's super hard to make a hard case backed by data, but you can talk about the various trade-offs between smooth versus brusque (e.g. smooth gives more power earlier, but brusque is more satisfying and noticeable once you finally get it). Then, each can make their own informed choice based on what they think is more important, and argue for their case. But again, the comparison to the old system brings nothing to the discussion, simply saying "it was smooth before, so smooth is better" is not a convincing argument.

Making the progression tied to Levels instead of time: it's an interesting idea, but it rewards snowball and/or increase solo carry potential. Is that something we want? (Honest question, and I have personally no strong opinion one way or the other.) If we do make it tied to levels though, I don't think your "security" mechanism is a good idea. Too much complexity for a very small gain, the cost is not worth it.

Linear versus quadratic progression: No objective argument here, just my personal feeling, but I much prefer the quadratic progression. The fantasy is much more powerful, you can really believe that at some point you'll become unstoppable, much more than with a continuous increase at constant speed. Just look at these two graphs, which one makes you think "late-game scaling unbeatable machine"? https://www.google.com/search?ei=OqKYW9L7G-fSrgSAk5CIDw&q=plot+x%5E2%2C+x&oq=plot+x%5E2%2C+x&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30k1l10.1570.4670.0.4790.5.5.0.0.0.0.68.309.5.5.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.5.307...0j35i39k1.0.tYZWp0MTjRQ

Spoofghoul9/8/2018, 10:41:31 AM2 votes

You sir are correct

It's a bit meh because it keeps lagging behind other runes all the time it doesnt feel smooth or impactful

Personally not a fan of stats per level because that also promotes snowballing Which due to shorter games because of it is also counter intuitive to a late game scaling rune. Lets not turn this into a If i get ahead ill get ahead hard and if i didn't use that to win ill outscale you anyways and still win the game rune

I think it needs something else

I think scaling with time is the best option but 10 minutes is too long 5 would be better 2,5 might be too short i wouldn't know for sure though It could just give 1ad/2ap per minute for example and an extra 1ad/2ap every 5th minute for smooth scaling for example

Alternatively it could work like conditioning after 10 minutes gain AD/AP adaptive then gain X% bonus This way you gain increased stats out of it whenever you get more stats whether that be leveling up or building damage Though i think this would still be worse then time related scaling as it is still snowball sensitive

Or it could be a combination of the above mentioned options

I would prefer this solution

after 5 minutes Gain + 5% AD/AP adaptive + 1 / 2 per level + and extra 1 /2 every 10th minute which keeps doubling up so 1 / 2 then 3 / 6 then 6 / 12 and so fort in addition to the 1/2 per level

More smooth scaling and starts impacting the game a bit faster too

At minute 30 this would give 25AD / 50AP + 7 AD /14 AP + 5 % At minute 60 this would give 55 AD / 110 AP + 63AD /126AP + 5%

Which is kind of a lot lol might need tuning, then again at level 30 it's nothing serious yet and it will start really getting strong at 40+ minutes But the numbers aren't very important here that can be easily tuned if needed

SlashStriker9/10/2018, 10:17:42 AM1 votes

I think Gathering Storm should grand AD/AP per minute instead every 10 minutes

for instance 1.5 AD / 2.5 AP per minute

Linna Excel9/8/2018, 8:08:33 PM1 votes

My problems with gathering storm are threefold:

  1. It's poo-poo until it's broken
  2. It's completely dependent on the average game length of the current meta.
  3. It feels like it was designed for bronze.

While getting smaller bumps more frequently might help the item, at the end of the day it still wants games to be a 40 minute meta and it's unusable in a 20 minute meta. So basically it's good in bronze when on average teams don't know how to group as five and end, but beyond that it's questionable.

ModKnightsKemplar9/8/2018, 1:15:24 AM1 votes

Approved!

Freewalker9/10/2018, 3:58:31 PM1 votes

I would prefer that much of the stat increase comes from the time, instead of leveling up. I calculated a version that gives the bonus based on seconds, instead of every 10 minutes. Since I wanted to keep the math simple, I included the leveling bonus as well to keep the bonus on par with the current version of Gathering Storm. Gathering Storm at 60 minutes = 168 AP / 101 AD. This version at 60 minutes and level 18 = 162 AP / 99 AD.

Gathering Storm You gain an adaptive bonus of +0.04 AP or 0.025 AD per second until 60 minutes (144 AP / 90 AD), as well as an adaptive bonus of +1-18 AP or 0.5-9 AD (based on level, +1 AP / 0.5 AD per level).

This version keeps the bonus in real time, so even in a tight situation, your Gathering Storm is always up-to-date. You also still get the leveling bonus to attain to.

Nut on my Butt9/19/2018, 7:00:48 AM1 votes

Are you seriously comparing a full page of old scaling runes to a single secondary runes reforged slot?