The Clash between Aatrox's ultimate and the rest of his kit, and a possible simple solution.

R0T0N·9/7/2018, 2:12:04 AM·9 votes·26,508 views

Aatrox's rework, despite the large amount of controversy, has mostly been a success. With a dedicated fanbase already established, his gameplay may differ greatly but the spirit of Aatrox (a hyper aggressive drain tank who can revive even if killed) has been preserved. However, there is one aspect of his kit that still feels underwhelming, and is the primary complaint I see in my discussions with various other Aatrox players: His ultimate.

I don't think this is necessarily because of the specific effect it gives. The AD Boost is very noticeable, and when you revive with your maximum bloodwell it is incredibly satisfying. The issue is that the specifics of how his ultimate's duration works directly clashes with his kit. Allow me to elaborate.

During Aatrox's ultimate, his bloodwell slowly fills up. This is to encourage players to cast their ultimate at the beginning of a fight, and to try to survive long enough in a fight to get it fully stacked before they die, allowing them to revive themselves with the most health possible. This idea is not only very thematic, but synergises very well with the rest of Aatrox's kit. Aatrox's base kit consists of tools to reward him for landing short range abilities on multiple targets with large damage output and survivability. The issue is that the flat duration of this ability changes Aatrox's goal. Gaining stasis with the ability to reposition for 3.5 seconds whilst healing 50% of your hp is incredibly strong, and should thus always be your aim in a teamfight. But this aim clashes with Aatrox's primary goal (to stay alive as long as possible using your passive healing in order to deal as much damage as possible) because even in combat, your ultimate will end after 12 seconds. This changes Aatrox's teamfighting decision making from: How can I deal as much damage and live as long as possible? To: How can I deal as much damage and live as long as possible for the first 10 or so seconds of a fight and ensure that I am killed within that last two second window?

Needless to say, being punished and missing out on a significant chunk of your ultimate's power for using the rest of the tools in your kit too well is one of the worst feelings in the game. I realise the following is anecdotal evidence, but gathering data for gamefeel discussions is quite difficult, and I feel this is the best way to further explain my point. Many times as Aatrox, I have been playing well in the middle of a teamfight, and towards the end of my ultimate's duration, whilst low on health I would land a 3rd Q on multiple targets, dealing a huge chunk of damage and healing myself for a sizeable amount too. I would then have my ultimate run out, and simply be bursted without my remaining cooldowns instantly. Here the better choice was to not go for the multi-champion 3rd Q (despite how difficult it is to setup) but to guess whether my opponents will burst me down before my ultimate ends, or whether they will wait, and just sit still or attempt to disengage the fight as appropriate. This goes against his playstyle and core theme of hyper-aggression and in addition, having to rely on enemy ignorance to get the most out of your ultimate is painful. I would be hard pressed to think of another champion whose biggest moment clashes with the rest of their kit and theming in such a harsh way. This is the equivalent of if casting Akali's second ultimate dissipated her shroud, or if hitting the last vital of Fiora's ultimate created a self-damage field instead of a team-healing field. What is supposed to be the most thematically resonant and satisfying moment of Aatrox's gameplay instead encourages players to do the exact opposite encouraged by the playstyle and theme, and run away or actively stop fighting.

My apologies, that got quite passionate, but hopefully I got the concept across. The next few points are somewhat less subjective.

Aatrox's ultimate duration is also an issue early game. While 12 seconds is quite short for a late game tanky teamfighter (shown by how often it tends to run out mid-team fight), it is a very long amount of time early game. The average dive lasts 10 seconds or so at most, which is more than enough time to dive a helpless enemy top lane with your jungler. This is partly why he was so dominant in pro-play, as his exceptional (and relatively low cooldown) zero-risk diving, combined with his huge early game pressure made him far too oppressive. Whilst a lot of his early game pressure has been nerfed away, and I agree with the direction of the current buffs in place to help out his early game, I feel as though he could still be very oppressive as an early diver, and the changes I am about to suggest for his ultimate (I believe) achieve both the goal of lowering abuse cases for Aatrox, whilst giving him more power if played well in late-game teamfights and making his general gameplay far more satisfying.

Aatrox: World Ender: Duration: 12 -> 8 seconds. New Effect: If World Ender has less than 4 seconds of duration left, damaging an enemy champion refreshes the duration to 4 seconds.

(Note: Numbers are purely speculative, the important part is the effect paradigm. In Addition, the Blood Well would still fill at the same rate, requiring Aatrox to damage an enemy champion after 6 seconds of his ultimate cast in order to get it fully stacked before the ultimate ends.)

This ensures Aatrox players are free to truly fight as hard as they possibly can in teamfights. It also sharpens the counterplay to Aatrox's ultimate, as proper kiting can end the ult far earlier than usual (and Aatrox's kit is designed to be quite easy to kite). Rewarding the Aatrox player for staying in the fight by guaranteeing him his revive, while punishing defensive ultimate use harder with a far smaller window. It also has the previously mentioned knock-on effect of reducing his early diving power, as well as his general early game power.

Naturally, everything posted here is simply my opinion. I feel as though Aatrox currently has room for this kind of change, considering his 48% early game winrate, and 46% post 30 minutes winrate (numbers acquired from OP.GG plat+ ranked games) especially as this is quite a power neutral change in most cases, and mostly removes painful gameplay points and some abuse cases.

I would love to hear thoughts on this from others here, both from those playing Aatrox, and those playing against him.

(I'm sorry if this is rambly, I may go back and edit later in order to clean up the structure. It is currently very late where I am and this was written in a hurry.)

24 Comments

Umbral Regent9/8/2018, 2:39:35 AM9 votes

I do like the sound of the proposed change, as it pushes Aatrox more towards his thematic of diving headlong into a fight and bringing carnage in his wake (as well as gives opponents reasons to stop him), but I have really only one question;

Does the effect have any sort of cap to limit it from dominating an entire teamfight? Such as, the duration refresh can only be used x amount of times before the ability just ticks down, or you can only refresh the duration once per Champion, etc.?

'Cause, while the idea sounds great on paper, it can be pretty hit-or-miss in execution taken as-stated. You either ult, get locked down and killed (which sucks, given the cooldown of such an impactful ability for such a short duration), or you ult, and late game (due to high CDR) stay in World-Ender until all of your enemies have died. Which, while thematically accurate to Aatrox's character, could potentially be a problem.

Of course, I'm speaking pretty much in raw hypotheticals here, but depending on how the duration refresh works, Aatrox's kit could need tuning in other spots to make up for becoming a literal teamfight god.

And, on the other side of the coin, the shorter duration could just lead to most cases of World-Ender being a little more disadvantageous, as enemies could bail to force Aatrox on his biggest cooldown, or CC-chain him to punish his fight-starting advance.

Dicerson9/21/2018, 7:38:34 AM3 votes

I seem to recall Master Yi having a somewhat similar issue with his ultimate, wherein if it lasted too long it became very dominant in teamfights and duels, but if it was too short you couldn't really do much with it, and the middleground was practically non-existant. They fixed this issue by making the duration just long enough to do stuff with, and having it extend by, iirc, 5 seconds on a kill/assist. I think the same mechanic could work here, as (like many others have pointed out) merely damaging a champion seems too easy, and would make him far too difficult to deal with in duels. A 10 second duration, with 3 second extensions for each kill/assist, sounds reasonable to me. It, as you've said here, rewards the Aatrox for going HAM as he possibly can, and punishes him for bad plays and bad initiations, as well as rewards good decision making on the enemy's part, without the duration being so short that a single CC will practically negate him.

Zero Skill Tank9/9/2018, 10:19:42 AM3 votes

In a teamfight scenario your argument sounds fair, but his leaves enemy that would duel Aatrox on toplane with virtually no choice, but to fully disengage if he choses to ult, turning Aatrox into more or less irremovable side-lane threat.

Would he be a heavy mana user, that could be possible to balance, but as-is, when he virtually never runs out of resources, it pretty much guarantees breaking him, leaving his enemy with very little chance to ever get any pressure on him.

At very least stat bonuses would need to time out, even if ressurection gets refreshed. Or, they could do it similar to Dario's ult, when it gains this refreshing effect only when maxed out at level 16.

Otherwise cooldown would need to suffer a heavy nerf to give enemy toplaner huge window of opportunity if Aatrox somehow waste this ult, but the cooldown is massive already, so it would leave Aatrox quite unsatisfying to play.

King Shadow Lord9/8/2018, 6:10:55 PM2 votes

I feel like if they were to change Aatrox's ult, it should be in the form of a charge effect.

Such as if you hold down his R, his bloodwell fills up by draining his HP. I suppose some of the initial AD from his ult can be transferred to the charge effect. (i.e. The more you sacrifice your HP, the more AD you get.)

This way, he has some agency and doesn't have to rely on his opponents killing him/

glava2229/8/2018, 3:52:08 PM2 votes

i'd say this is also a problem in thinking similair, to zileans ult where people think its worthless if you didnt actually die, while that is far from the truth. What you actually get from the ult is 12 seconds of people basically ignoring you because they know its kinda pointless to use abilities on you, so you gotta ask yourself: how many abilities did they not use on me because i would just revive after them? That is the damage reduction you get from your ult, and the revive should be considered purely a bonus, or used in dives

Id say that aatrox's ult is a case of an ability feeling much worse than it actually is, and i agree that can be a probelm in itself

Z3Sleeper9/8/2018, 5:38:39 AM2 votes

My only issue with this is how wonky the "your ult has almost run out" sound and visual effects would be.

Like, would it keep looping or would it play once and then never again? In both cases it sounds awful lol.

The sound and visual design for his ult running out is the best part of it in my opinion. It lets you know that you're about to lose god mode so you gotta either step back, die or finish the fight.

Having it repeat, having it play once but keep the ult going after the effect and having it removed all seem like bad options to me personally.


Ignoring that issue with the suggestion though, I actually think that Aatrox's ult is fine as is. I think the issues you've described are issues that Aatrox players are very aware of and know how to play around, adding an unseen form of extra skill expression to their ult usages.

The tower diving thing though, idk. It's definitely one of the best if not the best tower diving ult in the game period, since he basically wants to just recklessly dive into turrets with it to get the most out of it.

Idk what the solution to the turret diving thing is, but I don't think it's this personally. I don't even think cutting it to 8 seconds and not even implementing the refresh mechanic you suggested would help there.

MorganFreemanBot9/9/2018, 5:40:32 PM2 votes

Serious question, as I've only played new Aatrox once:

Doesn't his revive put his Q into 'stasis' mode?

My understanding is that, if you have 1.5 seconds left to use the final cast of your Q, and then you 'die' with the revive ultimate active.. That 1.5 second window will freeze, until you're 'alive' and active again, at which point it will tick down and expire / be available for your use.

If correct, then allowing yourself to die is part of the skill factor. You're supposed to 'bait' people in, die at the right time, then come back with a vengeance and smash face. While kind of awkward it's a skill factor, and fits with the theme of juggling Aatrox' disparate elements, rewarding those with a lot of skill and understanding with world-ending power levels.

If I'm wrong, then the suggestion of his sweet spot hits offering small would be good. 4 seconds however is way too high, it should be more like 1.5 / 2 seconds per hit, but not doubling up (as in 4 seconds for 2 hits).

Gilgayu11/18/2018, 6:33:56 PM1 votes

The ult of the new Aatrax does seem a bit weird but let's all be honest...

It is so much healthier than the old one.


For me, the ult is almost used as a bait. Durint the ult duration, most people wouldn't focus aatrax that hard because they know killing him is near pointless. Therefore I use the ult almost always in the middle/late phase of a fight. It leads the enemy to underestimate your damage, and gives you 12sec to put out some damage. Even if you are killed during the 12 sec, you can walk toward your team, baiting the enemy carries to step closer.


and tbh, his late game dmg is just too much for any further buff to be necessary, and his ult is basically a free ga if used well.

ModKnightsKemplar9/8/2018, 1:54:19 AM1 votes

Approved!

Ifneth9/14/2018, 3:53:01 PM1 votes

What if Aatrox could fill his blood well twice as fast but could not revive unless it were full? That mechanic alone would reward good play and reinforce his theme.

We can make it even more interesting. What if his ult duration were decreased sharply, but damaging enemy champions would keep the ult going? His gameplay pattern would change to, “I want to get into the fight, do as much damage as I can as long as I can, and even if I die, I’ll revive!”

Kazekiba9/17/2018, 7:12:33 AM1 votes

I'd argue that successful Sion KogMaw play means never using their passives except maybe level 1 red buff cheese, which i dont think works anymore

Power Cosmic9/20/2018, 8:23:47 PM1 votes

Aatrox is naturally very powerful in lane. That in itself has tremendous value. With the laning advantage that is built into Aatrox, you are expected to do well early. On top of that, to give him more power by lowering the CD and adding a passive refresh to his ult would make him far from fair in lane. The only way to shorten the CD would be to get rid of the revive or the steroid. Most everyone would choose to keep the revive, which would make the ult and the champ less fun than he already is. The only way in my opinion to make him more late game would be to nerf non sweet-spot damage on his Q to make trading less of an automatic win. It is harder to balance strong loaded kits that give gameplay advantages more so than late game scaling champs like pre-deletion Aatrox. The proper place for Aatrox since he is so strong in lane is to basically be a early/mid game champ that levels off hard. There should be different reasons to play different champs. Hope this helps.

Spoofghoul9/26/2018, 9:21:17 AM1 votes

I like the idea But it could extend the ult very too much maybe

What if when the 12 seconds run out your bloodwell drains over 4 seconds and heals you extending the ad buff as well for those 4 seconds but stasis idoes no longer happen

Basically you heal and can keep hitting your enemies It would ensure you get some reward out of it no matter what without making you godmode for infinity duration

Dark Ruger9/7/2018, 1:01:08 PM1 votes

I agree with everything you said bro....... I main the old Aatrox and i am still trying to find a way to main the new Aatrox but no matter how good you play his ult seems to somehow make me wanna quit Leagues. So yeah, if you are able to damage champions while in "WORLD ENDER" the duration should reset or just give him a whole new ult???