Stat Shard System: Issues and Solutions

ThrowsTheBird··7 votes·20,782 views

I would like to discuss 3 key points I perceive to be problematic with the new system with regards to early game resistances.

1. Main beneficiaries are Tanks / Juggernauts.

While other classes / roles can and will use the defensive options it is safe to say - based on current rune usage - that the main users of armor / mr runes will be those who already go for defensive options with the current rune system.

The problem here is that when they introduced Runes Reforged in preseason 8 (patch 7.22) they already adjusted the base stats of all champions in game. Tanks got up to 20 armor which was not even possible with the old Quint system (3x4.5 armor if they took all Armor Quints).

Here you can check the adjustment (scroll all the way down):

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V7.22

Tanks / Juggernauts do not need any more early game resistances. Tanks have a solid, even strong laning phase while they get shredded to pieces later in the game. This is bad for both tanks and for those who lane against them. Interaction in lane is minimal, most bruisers rush Tiamat irrespective of whether it fits into their build or not. The Tank can play safe so bruisers just push the lane and roam. Already Juggernauts and Tanks are pushing out true damage hypercarries according to win rates. At the same time some Tanks / Juggernauts are so tanky early game that they can be played mid lane because they shrug off ranged poke as well. This problem will be made worse if Tanks / Juggernauts will walk to lane with +10 armor or +12 MR.

Main point is that defensive shards benefit mostly two classes that do not need additional armor / magic resist EARLY game. We need strong tanks in the game to control teamfights and soak up damage in the front line. Currently we have tanks that are toxic in lane but useless later in teamfights.

2. Shard system ignores champion balance / design considerations

League champions are designed and balanced around not just lane mechanics but around scaling and power spikes as well.

Assassins in particular are designed to gain an early lead, snowball mid game and fall off late game. Obviously we are not talking about just Assassins, a lot of ADCs are similarly designed (Jhin / Lucian / Miss Fortune etc.) Having the ability to walk to lane with half a Null Magic Mantle or 2/3ds of a Cloth Armor will impact negatively champions who rely on early game aggression.

The other side of the coin is equally concerning: some champions were designed to be weak early game. Scaling champions like Ryze / Cassio / Vayne / Twitch etc. have a weak early game. It is challenging to get through laning phase but the reward is a strong late-game. This is a trade-off which is not taken into consideration in the new system.

Putting this much flat resistance into the game early completely ignores these design considerations and will only serve to further imbalances the game.

3. Laning Experience

From the previous point it follows that this system is a nerf to early game champions and a buff to those who are good late game and just wish to survive. It promotes a play style that is very passive and very focused on avoiding aggression in lane. This goes against everything Meddler said about laning:

> Laning in general: A period of small scale PVP, where it’s your skill against one or two opponents most of the time. Tests different skills from team fighting in particular. Should last for a fair duration and success during lane should set you up with a meaningful advantage post laning phase. If you win hard enough, and translate that lead into a wider advantage for your team, that could be very influential in deciding the game outcome. Your choice of champ relative to your opponents should matter, but shouldn’t decide the lane (strength in counter-picking, but not hard counters). Success should come from both how you play the lane (farming, zoning, trading etc) and how you contribute strategically during the laning period (roaming, TPing, objectives etc). Lanes should have frequent interaction between champions, not just passive farming.

See here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/7VOAaqsF-quick-gameplay-thoughts-january-24

I completely agree with Meddler, unfortunately this is not the case at least for Top Lane anymore. Top is notorious for being the most uninteractive boring lane, I fear that the new system will hurt other lanes as well.

SUMMARY

The initial problem was that we had too much damage in the game, I think we are heading for the other extreme right now. There was base stat adjustment in patch 7.22. The damage problem was addressed not by changing items but by gutting Domination Tree while buffing tanks (again, not an ideal solution). On top of patch 7.22 stats, the Resolve Tree offers the Conditioning rune, and now they are buffing Doran's Shield for even more sustain. All this combined will result in a dull laning experience and less focus on trading.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION

Instead of pumping more flat resistances early game into Leauge why not try a scaling approach? Instead of + 10 armor or + 12 MR flat early why not have the option to have scaling resistances, like having 3 - 15 armor and 4- 18 MR?

This would ensure that Tanks SCALE to late game. They would have a better late game while having an opening early game (just like in every season before season 8). At the same time it would allow early game champions to be aggressive and fall off later while ensuring that late game champions have a well defined weakness during early laning phase.

Lastly, the scaling armor and MR stats would make squishy targets able to survive burst and this would dampen the effects of "too much damage" in the game.

Thank you for reading. What are your thoughts?

20 Comments

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

My thought is that scaling runes are a much better option all around. That would really help make sure that the runes you selected continued to feel relevant throughout the game, instead of just picking based on lane matchup. I think that adds a layer of strategic depth that isn't present atm.

I realize that in the old runes system, no one took scaling runes. BUT, if that is all that you could choose, wouldn't that be interesting? Heck, they could even do flat damage runes and scaling tank runes. There are really interesting possibilities to consider here, imo.

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

That isn't completely true, scaling runes were taken, but usually only scaling AP, scaling health, and on the off chance also scaling CDR.

chipndip14 votes

Old runes were only really useful for early game. The reason why scaling ap/hp were taken was because they outscaled the flat options REALLY fast. Scaling cdr was taken because you could get roughly 40% cdr in a match without dedicating too much to the stat by taking scaling cdr.

In general, though, the minute scaling runes are good enough, they're the best in slot. Case in point: FUCKING DARK HARVEST

Ridley Prime2 votes

I agree with the issues you brought up, but I also wanted to mention another one - which may change the approach to a solution.

In the 2018 rune system, you could take Inspiration if you wanted to stack the scaling Health bonus or start with 18% Attack speed. This option is now gone in the new system, leaving some champs without their optimal or favorite rune paths. Many junglers appreciate the armor, but I would argue overall clear speed is more important, especially with the race for scuttle early.

I think the new stats previously unavailable to the 2018 runes (CDR, armor, MR) should be one-ofs in the selection tree, while allowing health and attack speed to be taken twice to stack, similar to adaptive damage. This allows Riot to have less newer variables to take into consideration, and can more readily compare champion performance with the same starting stats as the previous season. Is this champion weak because they lost 9% attack speed at level 1, or is there a more probable reason?

Perhaps something like this:

ROW 1: Adaptive Force // Attack Speed // CDR/level ROW 2: Adaptive Force // Health/level // Armor ROW 3: Health/level // Attack Speed // Magic Resistance

This leaves the 'new' stats champions can start with in the third column without the ability to stack any one of them. It does not allow for pure tank (Health/Armor/MR) setups similar to the current system, and allows junglers that care about attack speed to further take what interests them (adaptive force for even faster clears, armor for the rough jungle spots, or HP to scale with cinderhulk).

Characters not being able to take 10 armor off the bat I think will address the dullness of laning phase you mention while still offering a primarily defensive choice setup for characters that want to survive the laning phase. The biggest issue I forsee with this system is the Adaptive/Adaptive/Attack speed pure offense setup becoming dominant, but I think that that option should be available to players. This does leave the laners that might want a pure defensive rune tree out to dry, but I think the power of the effective combination of health and a resistance can counteract the pure offensive setup. Or at least the stats could be tweaked a little better to even them out. Trades in lane will not too often get an extra attack in early on with just the 9% attack speed, but I'd have to do some testing for that claim.

This still does not address the last point you bring up, that the game could leave squishies feeling like there is 'too much damage,' but I think there are other levers that can be used to tune that within the rune system, typically via keystone adjustments.

As a bit of an aside, taking 10 armor or 12 Magic resist is very much a problem with this system for another reason - no option for penetration. Many rune pages included magic or armor penetration back in the day before runes reforged, which helped balance out the stats of runes. Champs that wanted to be aggressive early game could take flat AD/AP, and champs that wanted to scale could take penetration for when resistances became higher and their base damages got scarier with level.

I think Riot has come to the conclusion (one that I agree with) that penetration should be something you really have to build for rather than just get and take on every character. So I'd still say the scaling resists are better than reintroducing penetration in runes.

Do you think my proposal addresses the same issues that changing to scaling resists would, or would some combination of the two work better?

ThrowsTheBird1 votes

ROW 1: Adaptive Force // Attack Speed // CDR/level ROW 2: Adaptive Force // Health/level // Armor ROW 3: Health/level // Attack Speed // Magic Resistance

I really love your approach but as you say, the AS + AD would be too dominant and people are complaining already. (Not me, I loved damage meta where mistakes count and you can 1v9).

ROW1 (flex0): Adaptive Damage // CDR // Armor ROW2 (flex1): Attack Speed // Health // Magic Resist ROW3 (flex2): Attack Speed // Health // CDR

Still not perfect but given the number of slots I may do. It would allow a tank to start with armor + mr + health or trade something for CDR which he needs. It would obviously need some number adjustments but it is fun to experiment wit this.

Perhaps a system where there are more than 3 elements in a row? They talked about this already.

The sad thing is that this is starting to look like the old Rune System but completely "barren".

They wanted to unify the Masteries / Runes to have them in one system....now they again separated them and we are operating with Keystones that resemble the old Masteries and Stat Shards that resemble the old Runes if you removed 90% of them....isn't it sad?

Healing Seraphim2 votes

Except Akali, Irelia (Bruiser Assasin, yey) and LB. Never forget Caps deleting an adc while being 0/2 with mercs lmao. These assasins are still overtuned to an extensive degree. Many of these champion were pick/ban troughout worlds for several reasons.

Real tanks are rarely played this season and for a good reason. They loose lane way too hard without jungler assist. In their stead heavy bruisers and juggernauts OR their counters were played. Urgot and AAtrox had insane pick/ban rates in worlds as well. Sion as champion was and still is broken. He and Ornn were the only played tanks in worlds (excluding the support tanks).

Also remove the hp stat from the runes. Its a noob trap. Also delete dark harvest. Thats TLD level of dumb.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Approved!

Stelyar1 votes

Tanks / Juggernauts do not need any more early game resistances. Tanks have a solid, even strong laning phase while they get shredded to pieces later in the game. This is bad for both tanks and for those who lane against them. Interaction in lane is minimal, most bruisers rush Tiamat irrespective of whether it fits into their build or not. The Tank can play safe so bruisers just push the lane and roam. Already Juggernauts and Tanks are pushing out true damage hypercarries according to win rates. At the same time some Tanks / Juggernauts are so tanky early game that they can be played mid lane because they shrug off ranged poke as well. This problem will be made worse if Tanks / Juggernauts will walk to lane with +10 armor or +12 MR.

Which tanks are you referring too? Like I can understand Ornn, bc of how strong his W is, but I find that even he is often bullied out of lane by popular bruisers. Even Sion, who just very high durability and good damage, is often killed by smart aggresive bruisers. Other than those two most tanks tend to get out damaged and out-sustained by most popular top laners (specifically thinking of Darius, Garen, Camille, Gangplank, Illaoi, Fiora, Irelia{maybe}). I also don't think the extra resists will do much since true damage is so prevalent in top lane meta with conquerer and built in true damage.

ThrowsTheBird1 votes

{quoted}

Which tanks are you referring too? Like I can understand Ornn, bc of how strong his W is, but I find that even he is often bullied out of lane by popular bruisers. Even Sion, who just very high durability and good damage, is often killed by smart aggresive bruisers. Other than those two most tanks tend to get out damaged and out-sustained by most popular top laners (specifically thinking of Darius, Garen, Camille, Gangplank, Illaoi, Fiora, Irelia{maybe}). I also don't think the extra resists will do much since true damage is so prevalent in top lane meta with conquerer and built in true damage.

I'm looking at champion.gg stats (you can look up any other site, the stats are the same):

https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=ascend&roleSort=Top

Fiora / Irelia / Camille and even Juggernauts like Darius are below 50% win rate while overtuned kits (Garen, Sion etc.) fare very well. It is no longer encouraged to learn a complex champion when Garen has 52% win rate in Diamond while having a decent play rate. Bruisers with the exception of Jax are around 47% (stats are from PLatimum + elos)

Yes I am aware that win rate is not everything, the point here is that low mastery curve champions with high win rates are more effective than complex hypercarries.

Also I am talking about both Tanks AND Juggernauts. Garen / Sion / Urgot / NAsus / Malphite / Yorick are just a few names of high win rate high play rate champions, but I would say Chogath is equally toxic. Look at what they did to Nasus and Cho during Tank Rework. Instead of farming and scaling up they were given stats for free (nasus ult, Cho ult, Garen W). It is extremely unfun to lane against these champions. Instead of slowly scaling up they are completely invulnerable at 20 mins with 1- 1,5 items.

These champions should SCALE into mid-late game and not be oppressive early game.

I am Razgriz1 votes

I agree with the end sentiment but not the argument presented as for why. Thankfully that's not really important if, in the end, we both agree "flat damage okay, scaling tank stats better".

Especially health like damn.

Nausicäa 1 votes

Disagree with pretty much everything and quite frankly you're 100% wrong.

Point 1. Main beneficiaries are not tanks. Even if they are Tanks have been weak for the entirety of season 8 due to damage out scaling defenses from both runes and items and the abundance of true damage from things like conqueror. This is a fact backed up by winrates, champion popularity and worlds pick rates. Tanks were non existent this season.

The main beneficiaries are immobile squishy champions who have been getting shit on tby this 1 shot meta.

Point 2. Damage has been too high for the entirety of season 8. Riot has admitted it, the majority of the community has been complaining about it, Pro and former pro players complained about it and even the worlds casters said it MULTIPLE times during worlds. Damage in season 8 was WAY TOO HIGH. This not even a point to be disputed, its a fact.

Resistances made assassins who were way too strong weaker? Good, thats exactly what needed to happen considering assassins were basically 1 comboing people at level 3 for 100% of their healthbar consistently. Thats not good gameplay.

5-12 resistance doesnt even come close to moving us into the direction of too little damage. Damage has gone down by sub 10% to a single damage type if you take both of the same resistances, leaving you with 0% reduction to the other or 3-4% to both. To say that this is making damage too low is utterly absurd.

Your entire post is a massive exaggeration and filled with falsehoods.

ThrowsTheBird1 votes

This is a fact backed up by winrates, champion popularity and worlds pick rates. Tanks were non existent this season.

I don't see these stats and I never saw it while browsing champion.gg and op.gg stats. Worlds used Sion / Urgot / Aatrox extensively (Juggernauts and tanks). Champions with linear kits such as Garen / Nasus / Mundo enjoyed a 50+ % win rate in SoloQ throughout the whole season. I am talking about Platinum and Diamond elos.

Also you completely missed my point here. I want the game to have strong tanks LATEGAME. My issue with adding early game resistances is that the early game of Tanks / Juggernauts is already very strong, stronger in fact than in every other season. If a Tank / Jug plays the lane properly you will not kill them, they will just recall when even slightly low on health and they can certainly afford to lose some farm seeing as how their items are dirt cheap and a lot of power is in their kit, including free resistances.

The point is that top lane is the least interactive lane, it is a bore farm fest where bruisers are forced to rush waveclear item just to escape lane because the tank / jug cannot be duelled if they play properly. Do you understand this?

Point 2. Damage has been too high

Ok. They gutted Domination Tree, they buffed some tanks, they buffed Doran's Shield, they nerfed Duskblade and Stormrazer. They made several changes to dumb the game down and make it extremely forgiving: you gain xp even if you are dead, new reward system immediately puts you back in the game, they lowered early game death timers (basically you may not lose even 1 farm even if you die and you just tp back). How casual do you want it?

League grew becaues it was a competitive experience. Remember season 4? Tanks had to farm up and play safe early and if somebody showed excellence they could carry the game 1v9. This is competitive....farming top lane with Garen is NOT.

Resistances made assassins who were way too strong weaker? Good, thats exactly what needed to happen considering assassins were basically 1 comboing people at level 3 for 100% of their healthbar consistently. Thats not good gameplay.

Thet is your opinion, not backed by any data. Assassins consistently have 50% > win rate (most of them anyways). So even if they could blow up their targets - which is their primary ROLE in the game - they were not oppressive in soloQ as shown by the stats.

You like to talk about pro play a lot, let's talk about it then. Since Season 5 Tanks have ALWAYS BEEN PRESENT in the pro-gaming scene. You know which class is completely missing? Yeah, assassins. One of the most exciting class has been absent for YEARS (with the exception of ranged Leblanc). And it is bad for the game, instead of seeing Faker play Zed like back then you can see waveclear control mages mid and Urgot vs Sion "battling it out" top...until they all group and teamfight. Wow how exciting...

Have a nice day! :)

JeaneGreene1 votes

Damage is an issue. No matter where you come from we are all aware of damage creep, whether it be in the "tracking" section of the domination tree or the newly added shield bash, RIOT has been adding damage slowly but surely into the game. Combine this with the rampant burst meta (Luden's, Stormrazor and Duskblade being the main proprietors) and every role has some sort of super high damage combo, in which they burn all of their cool downs to try and kill 1-2 people as fast as possible.

These defensive runes offer a gate for incredibly strong early game bursties (Talon for instance), which allows late game champions that would normally rely on consistent damage (Aurelion for instance) to lane safely and comfortable, but in exchange give up some of their kill and roam potential. I personally think that the defensive runes need to be higher, or the offensive runes need to be lower, as it has been stated multiple times that the gold value of the defensive runes is abysmal compared to the ones of adaptive force.

A large reason why you may not see this type of burst in higher elos/pro play is that it forces the players to play more defensively. One wrong move and they get 100-0'ed instantly. As a result of this very conservative and passive play, RIOT buffed damage more (in an effort to give new life into the game) but ended up making players play even more defensively. This is an argument for another time, but it is clear that damage (more specifically burst) is off the rails due to creep and other factors.

In the end it is a burst creeped meta with people trying to find some way to reduce it and be able to play champions that are weak to burst. Personally, I would love to see all damage reduced in the game by a percentage, but as a compensation buff champions will get cool down reduction. This would make fights last longer, champions take more skill to play in general (AA modifying items need to be reworked) and the game be more fun in general. Champions could disengage from fights if it was a close match, or if you were a crafty assassin you could stick onto the target just long enough so they die. More defenses -> more playing the game.

ThrowsTheBird1 votes

{quoted}

Damage is an issue. No matter where you come from we are all aware of damage creep, whether it be in the "tracking" section of the domination tree or the newly added shield bash, RIOT has been adding damage slowly but surely into the game. Combine this with the rampant burst meta (Luden's, Stormrazor and Duskblade being the main proprietors) and every role has some sort of super high damage combo, in which they burn all of their cool downs to try and kill 1-2 people as fast as possible.

These defensive runes offer a gate for incredibly strong early game bursties (Talon for instance), which allows late game champions that would normally rely on consistent damage (Aurelion for instance) to lane safely and comfortable, but in exchange give up some of their kill and roam potential. I personally think that the defensive runes need to be higher, or the offensive runes need to be lower, as it has been stated multiple times that the gold value of the defensive runes is abysmal compared to the ones of adaptive force.

A large reason why you may not see this type of burst in higher elos/pro play is that it forces the players to play more defensively. One wrong move and they get 100-0'ed instantly. As a result of this very conservative and passive play, RIOT buffed damage more (in an effort to give new life into the game) but ended up making players play even more defensively. This is an argument for another time, but it is clear that damage (more specifically burst) is off the rails due to creep and other factors.

In the end it is a burst creeped meta with people trying to find some way to reduce it and be able to play champions that are weak to burst. Personally, I would love to see all damage reduced in the game by a percentage, but as a compensation buff champions will get cool down reduction. This would make fights last longer, champions take more skill to play in general (AA modifying items need to be reworked) and the game be more fun in general. Champions could disengage from fights if it was a close match, or if you were a crafty assassin you could stick onto the target just long enough so they die. More defenses -> more playing the game.

Damage and power creep are relative. With that I mean that if they keep raising defensive stats then it is in equilibrium? (not a native speaker but I hope you get the point)

A much more interesting question is WHY the power creep is a constant issue? I want you to take a look at top lane for a moment. Look at Darius, Fiora...other bruisers. They have received nothing but buffs for months. The reason for that is patch 7.22 stat adjustments and Runes Reforged. Tanks / Jugs received so much base stats that they had to buff Darius and they were clear about the reasons: "we want an anti-tank option" (I'll try to look up the dev corner post).

Resolve Tree, stat adjustment in patch 7.22 and random buffs to champions like Garen (???) made bruisers struggle so Riot was giving them nothing but buffs. My point is that in this case the power creep was an answer to a defense creep.

I completely disagree with the burst part. Anyone now can take Resolve Tree (Lissandra is just one example) and the Boneplating was designed to completely negate burst. Also I do not see burst as a bad thing in League. In a 1v1 situation where the adc / squishy mispositions then he / she should be dead very quickly. Already there are too many options / champions to completely cuck assassins (Lulu, Janna etc.). You have to ask yourself..why are melee assassins completely absent in pro play?

With these new Stat Shards I expect that assassins will suffer....and that will bring about buffs which again just adds to the power creep you mentioned. But again...they are going to buff these early game champs just to give them a chance to have an impact before falling off so again it is going to be a response to defense creep.

On my main (not this acc) I play in mid to high plat. I just don't see the assassin domination there I'm sorry. Everybody plays it very safe and this rune system is designed to further strengthen that (anti game) playstyle.

The Bad Touch1 votes

I'd like to point out is was quite possible to start with 30+ flat armor and 12mr from just runes... + old masterys GAVE you more armor/mr and toughness.... as well as a good bit of health.

Not to mention you used to start with a LOT more sustain from flasks/potions and base HP regen values were higher for almost every champ.

I used to run full armor/scaling armor pages and start cloth + 5 pot into bursty ad champs all the time. Then you'd go heart of gold + philo stone.

Every season champs have done more damage and been less tough... with the exclusion of season 5 where for a brief time tanks were tanky again.

ThrowsTheBird1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=B8fa3kEu,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-11-28T10:36:36.606+0000)

I'd like to point out is was quite possible to start with 30+ flat armor and 12mr from just runes... + old masterys GAVE you more armor/mr and toughness.... as well as a good bit of health.

Not to mention you used to start with a LOT more sustain from flasks/potions and base HP regen values were higher for almost every champ.

I used to run full armor/scaling armor pages and start cloth + 5 pot into bursty ad champs all the time. Then you'd go heart of gold + philo stone.

Every season champs have done more damage and been less tough... with the exclusion of season 5 where for a brief time tanks were tanky again.

And literally 99% of players did NOT have all-armor or all-MR runes. Tanks ran 3 Armor Quints (3x4.5 armor) or MR Quints so no, I don't buy that argument.

Too much sustain (potions / flasks) is BAD for laning because it makes it non-interactive, non-rewarding. You basically render it a farm fest and that was changed with new potion prices and Corrupting Pot. I think it was good change.

The surest way to kill League is to make it non-competitive, uninteresting. This is the direction they are taking it due to non-stop whining of Reddit and others.

About tanks. Do you know why nobody plays Quinn anymore? Or why Jayce is mid lane or why for that matter why Irelia is mid? These "bullies" consistently underperform since Runes Reforged, Stat Adjustments and MONTHS of buffing tanks / juggernauts. Tanks traditionally HAD a weak early game, that was the opening, a time to shut them down. Not only was this removed (they are very tanky early game) but they pumped so much free stats into tanks and made such horrible decisions (Chogath not losing stacks) that it literally does not matter if you kill a tank 7 times. Laning generally consists of the bruiser (or whoever you play) buys an early Tiamat just to get out of lane because NOTHING is happening. If there are two tanks then it is not even worth looking at the lane.

At the same time tanks are not strong enough later in the game in my opinion. They just stand there and carries can shred them apart. I think a power shift is necessary. Let them have a weak early game again and let them scale better in exchange.

In their current state they are choking top lane. They are boring to play and play against while being useless in teamfights. You may love this but I don't. I want to see outplays which is possible on any other class besides tanks / jugs who have the lowest mastery curve (stated by Riot).

The Bad Touch1 votes

Did you personally ask all 100,000,000 of them? You could have had to for that to "literally" be true. Everyone I played with has at least 10 runes pages covering everything from "tank vs all AD" to FULL AS/flat armor jungle pages. Maybe it's something people that are new to the game made a habbit of? Hell dude there used to be very popular webpages that literally did nothing but post slight variations in rune configs. Do you even remember when Akali required a custom page? Or dodge runes?

The very things you started as being "wrong" were what made the game so damn popular to begin with my dude. The players were here BEFORE the recent changes.

Tanks traditionally have had very safe laning phases due to much higher sustain and much lower damage than LoL in it's current form.

Exactly when in League history are you talking about? I still remember when taric had an infinite healing ulti, eve stuned with an auto out of stealth, GP could kill his own minions, you could stack 6 sunfire capes and you could start 15 health pots and they healed for 200 each.

Ever try to force a Shen out of lane when he had 3000 points of health potions at level 1, a Q that heals, AND an activated shield? I assure you tank lanes back in the way were easy mode compared to now.

ThrowsTheBird1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=B8fa3kEu,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-11-28T17:53:58.821+0000)

Did you personally ask all 100,000,000 of them? You could have had to for that to "literally" be true. Everyone I played with has at least 10 runes pages covering everything from "tank vs all AD" to FULL AS/flat armor jungle pages. Maybe it's something people that are new to the game made a habbit of? Hell dude there used to be very popular webpages that literally did nothing but post slight variations in rune configs. Do you even remember when Akali required a custom page? Or dodge runes?

The very things you started as being "wrong" were what made the game so damn popular to begin with my dude. The players were here BEFORE the recent changes.

Tanks traditionally have had very safe laning phases due to much higher sustain and much lower damage than LoL in it's current form.

Exactly when in League history are you talking about? I still remember when taric had an infinite healing ulti, eve stuned with an auto out of stealth, GP could kill his own minions, you could stack 6 sunfire capes and you could start 15 health pots and they healed for 200 each.

Ever try to force a Shen out of lane when he had 3000 points of health potions at level 1, a Q that heals, AND an activated shield? I assure you tank lanes back in the way were easy mode compared to now.

Well you said it here for all to see: you want farm lanes. This is what you said..you want 5k health tanks farming and being invulnerable in lane. This is your idea of "fun". This is not competitive, this is boring and robs TWO people of good gameplay. The tank and the opponent.

Tanks DID NOT have safe laning phases, that is just outright false. You can watch ANY video on youtube feataring gameplay of ANY season before season 7-8 and you will see that tanks took a lot more damage from poke.

and you could start 15 health pots and they healed for 200 each.

Already explained above, they changed it so you have less sustain now and you are forced to make decisions and better guard your healthpool.

Also you are wrong about what made the game popular. Throughout S1 to S5 tanks were pretty much considered a bad pick especially in soloQ. At Worlds you would see Assassins and top lane was NOT a tank lane. What made the game popular is that it was fun and surprising. You know why there are very few tank streamers? Because the gameplay is boring, it literally kills streams. People want to see action and outplays, not farming for 25 minutes...understandably.

If you want a boring farm simulator as you described then fine, go for it! :)

The Bad Touch1 votes

{quoted}

Well you said it here for all to see: you want farm lanes. This is what you said..you want 5k health tanks farming and being invulnerable in lane. This is your idea of "fun". This is not competitive, this is boring and robs TWO people of good gameplay. The tank and the opponent.

Tanks DID NOT have safe laning phases, that is just outright false. You can watch ANY video on youtube feataring gameplay of ANY season before season 7-8 and you will see that tanks took a lot more damage from poke.

Already explained above, they changed it so you have less sustain now and you are forced to make decisions and better guard your healthpool.

Also you are wrong about what made the game popular. Throughout S1 to S5 tanks were pretty much considered a bad pick especially in soloQ. At Worlds you would see Assassins and top lane was NOT a tank lane. What made the game popular is that it was fun and surprising. You know why there are very few tank streamers? Because the gameplay is boring, it literally kills streams. People want to see action and outplays, not farming for 25 minutes...understandably.

If you want a boring farm simulator as you described then fine, go for it! :)

You seem to have a pretty limited grasp on reality my friend.

Please do quote me on where I said any of that.

I play all champions types and all roles. I do however support a slower more strategic game over a CoD deathmatch clownfest. I think game lengths are best around 40-45 minutes.

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