A Discussion Regarding Ornn's "Unstoppable" Mechanic on W

EarthyMadness·8/23/2018, 10:17:38 PM·31 votes·34,356 views

This is going to take a little prelude and thorough explanation, so please bear with me.

To begin, I make this proposal because I have heard the concerns and cries of Ornn Ornn players, both casuals and mains, those who will always play, and those who pick him once in a blue moon. In those words there is one primary constant that almost every Ornn player who used the original version knows is that the Unstoppable mechanic on his W was one of the best parts of his kit. So, I'm here to propose my own personal ideas for how it could be returned to his W in a safe, balanced way. I would like to hear feedback from any on this, whether as someone who plays/played Ornn, or someone who has only played against him, this is your chance for your voice to be heard.

So, regarding the "unstoppable" mechanic. For those who may not know, Unstoppable is a mechanic that exists on some champion abilities, most notably Olaf Olaf and his Ultimate, which provides "Unstoppable" for a set duration.

What Unstoppable does it is makes the user completely and totally invulnerable to any form of crowd control, including Suppression. Ornn, on release, had a temporary "Unstoppable" effect on his W, "Bellow's Breath". Bellow's Breath is Ornn's primary dueling tool, providing both his strongest offensive ability in terms of consistency and damage, and his only defensive ability in terms of shields or mitigation.

Bellow's Breath: Active: Ornn shields himself for 12% of his maximum health for 3.5 seconds and marches in the target direction with 50% reduced movement speed for 0.75 seconds.

Over the march he belches fire over a cone in front of him, dealing magic damage every 0.2 seconds to enemies hit. The final bout of flame will apply Brittle for 3 seconds.

COST: 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 Mana COOLDOWN: 17 / 15 / 13 / 11 / 9 DAMAGE [Champions]: 12 / 13 / 14 / 15 / 16% of target's maximum health DAMAGE [Minimum/Minions]: 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280 DAMAGE [Monsters]: 155 / 180 / 205 / 230 / 255

Right, that's out of the way now, let's discuss the core topic. Bellow's Breath, on release, only dealt current health damage, and had Unstoppable for the duration of the ability (less than 1 second). However, due to Ornn's low winrate on release (approx. 36% if I remember correctly, but I can't find a source for it at this time) they made some changes, most notably removing certain cast delays and changing his W's damage to %max instead of %current. However, the damage values were left at a comically high 25%max at rank 5, which had the adverse effect of making Ornn hilariously overpowered for a considerable time. The solution? Cut the damage significantly, make adjustments to mana costs and cooldowns, and remove his "safety net" of Unstoppable. However, the "Unstoppable" was such a short duration that it was almost never used offensively. Any good Ornn player who knew the old W would be able to tell you the sheer defensive utility that spell presented if used correctly. Did Zoe use her sleepy bubble on you? W right as the timer ticks out, you'll break it before it puts you to sleep. It was essential to trading correctly.

So, that little bit of rambling/explanation aside, I'd like to propose something I mused over for a while before Gameplay+ existed.

Ornn is a tank, right? That's his intended role, and function. However, his W and Brittle together make him the highest damage tank in the game, unless you count Cho'Gath's ultimate but that's a creature we're not going to get into. Most older Ornn players want the Unstoppable back. It's a high impact high skill ceiling effect that the best Ornn players (and I'm not even counting myself anywhere near the best) could use to turn a horrifically lost trade into their favor by negating the worst of the enemy's CC if used at just the right instant. Similar to Fiora's W, it rewarded reactive use, not proactive.

So my actual proposal is as follows (without further delays, though I thank those of you who are still reading this mess.)

Return the Unstoppable back on Ornn's W. In exchange, gut the damage from 12/12/14/15/16% max to 9/9.5/10/10.5/11% max (maintaining the damage from Brittle procs). Increase the shield from 12% to 12/12.5/13/13.5/14%. Increase mana cost from 45/50/55/60/65 to 45/53/60/68/75 (or 50/55/60/65/70, whichever is deemed "more fair") Increase cooldown from 17/15/13/11/9 to 17/15.5/14/12.5/11.

Intent: With these changes, the primary intent is to reduce Ornn's damage, which can easily be considered unfair, if not downright oppressive in some matchups. For compensation, the defensive/protective aspects will be strengthened, while balancing his cooldown and costs around this change.

Reasoning: As his only defensive tool, it lacks a lot of the muster that other defensive kits have. No increase in resistances, no % or flat mitigation, and a shield that is barely more than Vi's passive shield (which is up more often and not bound to a specific ability).

The end result is to make Ornn a less oppressive offensive bully and more of a stalwart rock to soak up damage, which is what a tank's job should really be. From me to the community, I would like to openly invite you to discuss this idea, and voice your thoughts and opinions below.

And to those of you who may have read all the way through, I thank you.

Every step; a new journey. ~~ EarthyMadness

43 Comments

Omnipherious8/24/2018, 5:45:58 AM20 votes

Honestly I was quite surprised that Ornn had his "Unstoppable" removed from W way back; even back then I thought it was the wrong move since it is an opportunity for Ornn players to express skill.

I think it is okay for W to be a self-shield + % max HP dmg + CC immunity ability all-in-on if you make it so that the Ornn player has to put in a bit of work to make it super good.

I think this could be accomplished by changing 2 components: 1. Increase overall CD. 2. Grant CD reduction on Brittle procs.

Just as an example, lets say we increase the cooldown to 20/18/16/14/12 and every Brittle debuff which is successfully proc'd reduces the cooldown by a flat amount of 2s.

If Ornn uses this defensively for the Unstoppable component without applying Brittle to anyone, he becomes unable to reduce the cooldown unless Brittle gets applied and proc'd from the Ultimate instead - which theoretically prevents this from being super out-of-line in the early game, and heavily incentivizes him to be right in the thick of a fight in the mid to late game to ensure maximum Brittle applications + procs for his own survival as well.

Obviously I'm not saying these numbers are perfect, but I think a layer of required interactivity would be good for Ornn since then he will be allowed to have a very powerful ability on a medium/long cooldown that the player is able to actively work to reduce through teamwork and thoughtful play.

I think this would be a much better approach as opposed to just number tweaks.

GelsominoKiller8/24/2018, 7:07:45 PM10 votes

Removing it was nonsense in the first place.

In order to overcompensate for his low relase winrate, Ornn had his damage (and not only his damage) literally hard buffed multiple patches in a row. When people managed to gain mastery over him, they realized they had a ridiculously overpowered champion in their hands.

What happened next is beyond comprehension: Riot decided to keep the absurd %maxhp damage they gave him, which was obviously, trivially, evidently the problem... And remove the most skilled and interesting part of Ornn's kit, the unstoppable. When this didn't work the slightest, they started actually nerfing the damage, but refused to reintroduce the unstoppable.

Bârd8/24/2018, 7:19:45 AM9 votes

Hated the removal of unstoppable.

This change single handedly killed all the fun I had on this champion.

If it was returned, I'd love to start playing Ornn again.

Teridax688/24/2018, 7:10:06 AM9 votes

I think unstoppability is an effect that has a ton of untapped potential for experimentation. Despite its short tenure, on Ornn it clearly provided opportunity for skill expression, and effects that approach unstoppability have had positive effects as well (Garen's temporary high Tenacity has made him a tad less binary with respect to kiting, even if he's still pretty binary overall). I'm disappointed that it was removed on Bellows Breath, because the problem with the effect was its high damage, not its unstoppability.

As such, I agree completely with the above change: I believe there is strictly no reason for Ornn to have major damage to begin with, considering the immense crowd control he has at his disposal, on top of valuable team utility, so nerfing that I think would also be a push in the right direction. Ornn is also meant to be a late-game champion, owing to his special items, and is meant to compensate for his ability to buy outside the shop with meaningful weakness in lane, so the fact that he's also a lane bully right now is also way out of line. Nerfing Ornn's bully potential and turning back his W into a timely block could kill two birds with one stone in this respect as well.

kile1478/24/2018, 11:13:23 AM4 votes

W having unstoppable is problematic because it makes it his best defensive tool, best offensive tool, good to use proactively, and good to use reactively. Basically, there was never a bad situation to use it and it turned W into a "don't interact with me" button.

Instead they should put unstoppable on his E. His already has an "Unstoppable" feel due to being able to break walls, and making it actually have the unstoppable effect would double down on that feel. It would also force Ornn to make more decisions. Does he want to use E for engage and not be able to react to a CC? Will tanking this CC leave Ornn in a better position than using E and putting himself away from his target?

toastMonkey8/24/2018, 2:45:45 PM3 votes

Voted yes, so I will add a comment. I haven't had the chance to play Ornn as much as I would like. I waited until the nerf/adjustment train had quieted down to pick him up and I don't get into enough matches where it makes sense to take him. I love tanky fighters: Trundle Poppy Shyvana (I build her tanky/fighter hybrid) and Ornn fits in well with this bunch.

I agree that to favor the CC/tanky elements over the damage makes sense on him. Without a clear design purpose, any champ falls into a hybrid confusion. Ornn Bellows Breath (W) was a clear unique element in the game and I wish they'd restore the unique elements. Keep the damage low across the board for him and let him hold his unique characteristics. I hope to get to play him more soon.

ModThe Djinn8/24/2018, 2:17:01 AM2 votes

So, I'll admit -- I'm ambivalent about Unstoppable. I understand it was a loved mechanic on Ornn, but I do think it has a key flaw. Namely, it takes his most powerful offensive move and turns it into something that provides a strong incentive to use as a defensive reaction. To me, this makes it more awkward than similar mechanics on Gangplank (who can cleanse CC and heal himself, and, after CC application, he'll usually be damage) or Olaf (who has a long-duration effect), as those two aren't encouraged to withhold one of their most powerful moves. I think removing it was probably a good place to cut power, as it helps solidify the ability's use.

I do feel like your adjustment is probably not too far out of line if you wanted to restore Unstoppable to his W, although I'd suspect it would need a bit of tweaking if it were actually tested.

Child of the Pit8/24/2018, 11:37:30 AM2 votes

I personally think the biggest strength is his enhanced items and ult, if you'd take some damage of the R, and give him unstopable back, that would balance his kit out, since the W atm is pretty underwhelming whils't the ult is overwhelming

Warlord Rhinark8/24/2018, 8:23:01 AM2 votes

I'd like for him to get 3% more max HP on his shield, as well as Unstoppable back on his W, in exchange for the percentage maximum health damage on his passive being reduced to 5 - 10% from 7 - 13% and the percentage maximum health damage on his W changed to 10 / 11 / 12 / 13 / 14% of target's maximum health from 12 / 13 / 14 / 15 / 16% of target's maximum health.

He's supposed to be a Tank, so let's actually encourage him to be a Tank and not someone that deals 18% maximum health damage at level 1.

Verxint8/24/2018, 1:57:26 PM2 votes

I still don't understand why Riot handled Ornn they way they did. They buffed his damage into the stratosphere over like 4 patches, then when it was shown how OP he was, instead of just reverting those changes they remove unstoppable instead. Riot seems to do this a lot, trying to fix past mistakes with new things instead of just undoing the mistake.

Jaspers8/24/2018, 9:34:35 AM2 votes

If you add unstoppable back to his W would a fair exchange be moving the shield to his E? So...

W - Add back in unstoppable, change the damage to a base stat which then has enemy max HP scaling, so currently it's 12-16%, make it deal base of say 5%-10% as well, based on skill level, like Sej's W. Remove shield. Reduce cooldown.

E - Add shield here, make it so if he hits a wall it procs the shield. This will make it so he can stay safe when going in (or running) and won't make trading with him frustrating. Reduce it's damage and area of effect.

One of my frustration with his is that when you go to engage with him breathes on you to do %max Hp then brittle procs to do % max HP. The shield means that can't do damage to him while he does it to you. Essentially the ability (W) made him too safe. The idea above would be so if I go in to deal damage, he will take it instead just dealing more damage to me. The 'skill expression' comes from the combos. Get Q pillar in a good place, charge with E to get knockup and shield to stay safe while engaging, W to deal meaningful damage.

It also mean, he won't only ever be using W to avoid CC but can use E to charge a nearby wall, get a shield and walk out.

Spideraxe8/25/2018, 9:45:36 PM1 votes

Coming to this thread a little late but I'll try to tag Squad5 to see this and get his opinion

Illabethe8/26/2018, 7:56:39 AM1 votes

Just a fair warning. If Unstoppable is added back in, I'm going to be doing more than hypercarrying with him....

Póppy Chulo8/27/2018, 5:39:05 AM1 votes

They nerfed Ornn W a couple times, especially cd due to "Unstoppable". Then they REMOVE the unstoppable and keep the cd the same.

Sadly back in the day on Ornn release, I performed so well on him and thought it was a blast. Then they came out with a buff, then another and another. When the second buff came out I posted it here, not to do it. They were going to over buff him and then over nerf him harder than release Ornn. Similarly as to what happened to Poppy...

japhib8/30/2018, 4:50:05 AM1 votes

I think strongly that Riot was right to remove it.

Personally I think Unstoppable is a bit much on an ability that shields him for so much while also dealing a ton of damage and clearing the wave if you’re in lane. Plus the shield lasts a super long time. Garen W or Fiora W don’t do any damage (well, Fiora w a little) — they have VERY long cool downs (20+ seconds for most of the game since they’re usually maxed last) and they take up a whole ability slot that could otherwise be used to make an ability that does more damage or something. Olaf R, in addition to having a long cool down, actually removes the bonus resistances Olaf got passively from his ult, and gets some AD encouraging offensive use.

Ornn W on the other hand is maxed first. With even a tiny bit of CDR on a 9s cd, that means his shield already has almost 50% uptime from a pretty early point in the game. Unstoppable is just way too much on a sub-10s cd ability. It needs to be spammable as it’s his waveclear ability, so adding unstoppable back to it would require a bigger rework of his kit IMO.

Ornn is already slotted as the most offensive tank and as the best of the Vanguards. Unstoppable just makes him literally impossible to deal with. If he’s good offensively he should have some weaknesses defensively.

Maybe a bit of tenacity like 25% as a reward for casting it well but the guy already has 2 cool new concepts in his kit (living forge and brittle) — maybe we don’t need to add a 3rd. I think in this case the saying “less is more” is true.

ModThe Djinn8/24/2018, 2:10:40 AM1 votes

Approved!

PlantagenNega9/23/2018, 7:11:53 PM1 votes

Oh boy would I love seeing ornn with his unstoppability back. As soon as Ornn came out I started playing him and dude was he fun. I mean he was a tank, but he had something to actively really COUNTER some spells.He was UNIQUE. But now after the changes hes practically a bruiser. Hes neither tanky nor does he offer anything interactive and his damage is just way to high. So in my opinion: GIVE HIM HIS F*CKING UNSTOPPABILITY BACK. It feels like everything thats FUN is just destroyed in seconds as soon as the champion gets broken for DIFFERENT REASONS.

I would suggest the following: -give unsoppability ofc -buff q slow + nerf q damage -buff w shield and nerf the damage by like 2 percent max hp -Increase w cooldown -Increase e mana cost and cd -and give ornn back that longer animatin on his ult reactivation dash

Ornn was the only interactive and hard to play tank and I would LOVE riot if they made him like back to release. Because the only reason for hisl ow Winrate was his difficulty, not his damage or hp.


P.S.: Upvote EarthyMadness`s post plz I would love to see riot change this
Chumpzi11a8/24/2018, 12:19:40 PM1 votes

No. Too much stuff for one basic ability. It was like Akali q is now. Waveclear, poke and sustain all on one ability removes player agency because the decision gets really uninteresting (basically, your only choice becomes max it first because it's so much better than everything else).

So, Viktor q does a lot of stuff. Point and click damage, empowered auto, shield, movespeed. But his waveclear is on his e. So, the player makes a choice to take the sustain and dodge potential of the q, or the waveclear of the e. The shield may be more important depending on the matchup.

So, I guess it could be ok to put unstoppable back on ornn w, just make it not damaging to minions.

Nea1048/24/2018, 12:23:10 PM1 votes

They just can't make proper and meaningful tanks.

They just keep making awful abomination of "tanky-ish" champs who deal tons of damage nonetheless; then they gut them to the ground for a while, and then they overbuff them again.

But they just can't make a tank who just tanks.

AS I LAY FEEDING8/24/2018, 12:46:20 PM1 votes

Ornn is broken and outscales everyone with cd and tank items.

FeelingOrnny8/24/2018, 1:46:16 PM1 votes

Yes make ornn great again. Honestly to get unstoppable back on W something would have to go or be reduced, Max hp + shield + unstoppable is overloaded for one ability. The shield would be the easiest move it to e cast or q cast.

Those saying to implement unstoppable on E it would make the spell a balance nightmare it would be basically a lower cool down malphite ulty on a champ who has tons more cc and aoe max hp damage.

Edit: Or make the w shield apply after the final bellow is made.

EarthyMadness8/24/2018, 1:47:14 PM1 votes

Thrilled with the feedback so far, a lot of you have very good ideas and they're pretty creative. I would like to hear some more arguments against it, there's truth in both sides.

French Courtesan8/24/2018, 3:42:58 PM1 votes

Tanks do NOT need any buffs.

Ifneth8/24/2018, 4:06:08 PM1 votes

I remember when Ornn had unstoppable. I was chasing him down as Taliyah with Rylai’s and Liandry’s. Though having only about 1/2 to 1/3 health to start and being hit with Threaded Volley almost off cooldown, he just spammed Bellows’ Breath to negate my damage and crowd control, dying only after a 10-15 second chase through the jungle. Please, not again.

He’s meant to be a lane-bully engage tank—not a slippery dwarf.

SanKakU8/24/2018, 5:18:12 PM1 votes

I haven't even bothered to play him much if at all since he lost unstoppable because they just changed the most fun part of his kit. I would be fine with playing him again if all they did was apply your suggested nerfs and none of the buffs except giving him the unstoppable back. If he still needs buffs, could always wait for the next patch.

If they did something like remove the vision from Lux's E I'd stop playing her too(she's currently my highest mastery champ and I have her most expensive skin). Fun and unique abilities should stay that way, fun and unique.

CatSith8/24/2018, 9:23:19 PM1 votes

If anything just make a new mechanic,

Unwavering - immune to knock backs but still susceptible to other forms of stuns.

AbiwonKenabi8/25/2018, 12:59:38 PM1 votes

As someone who would have formerly voted no, this post changed my mind.

What it came down to for me was that Ornn simply has a lot of good stuff in his kit, and the Unstoppable just felt like more added to an already powerful kit. He can build items in lane, which adds to his lane staying power. He effectively gives his entire team a seventh item, which really doesn't matter until late but is still powerful. He has quite a long range engage with his ult; sure you can CC him to prevent him from second cast but oh wait he has Unstoppable too. He has another engage tool on a regular ability. Not to mention Brittle, which increases CC duration of his allies AND he can use it as an auto attack stun if he's by himself. Plus the % max health. It was just getting to be too much, and the Unstoppable felt like it was too good for a kit like this.

I'm starting to come around to seeing the Unstoppable as a good thing. Your comparison to Fiora's parry helps: it has outplay potential, it isn't just more damage or something.

I'd like to see his % damage go way down. He really doesn't need it on both Brittle and Bellow's Breath. Pick one, give the other some kind of scaling magic damage along with an appropriate ratio. Ornn's job is to engage, disrupt and possibly peel. Bellow's Breath needs to serve this purpose, and the Unstoppable portion is key to that, along with Brittle procs. He doesn't need a ton of percent health damage, and the percentage doesn't need to be as high as it is right now.