Boards›[ARCHIVED] Gameplay+

Jungle enchants can use a more unified approach to their design to improve their champ alignment

Shadow Hazard·9/10/2018, 4:08:03 AM·3 votes·23,825 views

For the longest time cinderhulk has the healthiest overall idea for it's design that should be the benchmark the others would want to be aimed at. It offers a unique effect that is tied directly to the itemization of the type of champs that would want to build it, which affects the items stat efficiency. The other more offensive focus jungle enchants do not follow this same idea as strongly to varying degrees.

The first one is the worst of them for that issue is warrior. The item is famous for being a very stat efficient dumbly simple stat stick. Although such simplicity in what it offers allows it to be one of the easiest items in the game to balance, it forced a state that the item has to have a very forgiving stat efficiency. It could be thought that a "keep it simple stupid" idea should allow for it to cater to all the champs that want it but that also has allowed there to be times of having warrior into full tank builds with unhealthy strength because it was easy to not be punished for deviating like that.

Runic echoes being a forever neutered version of ludens is should not be the only way to encourage AP scaling carries. The issue that runic has isn't a lack of a power that scales and encourages the itemization of the champs that would build it and makes sure there is a reliable way for the champs to clear camps. The issue it has had even since the point of shifting it from a sheen proc to the echo proc is the issue of the item being so heavily shifted into empowering burst assassin kits, when the previous option was leaned into a little more universal in the crowd it caters to but the nature of sheen still made it more for the sustained spell weavers. Runic could use a change that more universally empowers the champs rather than the kits rather than specific playstyles.

Lastly bloodrazor in theory should encourage and synergize well with auto/attack speed based champs since on hits pretty fundamentally scale up with attack speed, but the item is showing that it is falling short except for the almost exclusive outlier Yi. The item suffers from a few issues. A percent health offensive effect always tips a very fine line of useless to unhealthy. The second related issue is that the item can encourage you to limit the amount of the stat it should be encouraging you to build more of. Many attack speed champs have built in steroids in their kits and the existence of the attack speed cap hard limits the usefulness building much more. This item should more broadly scale with the champs that would build it rather than with the enemies you would be facing.

There are changes i would suggest for the problem enchants

item 1400 build out of item 3134 Final stats +45AD unique:+15 (+10% bonus AD) lethality unique – Headhunter: Every 4 seconds you gain headhunter causing your next damaging spell will deal 40 bonus physical damage to all enemies it hits.

item 1402 Replace echo proc unique: Every time you deal magic damage to an enemy the enemy and other nearby enemies take 15% (+1% per 10 AP) bonus damage

item 1416 Add to the recipeitem 1051 final stats on hit 30(+1% per 1% crit chance) magic damage +25% crit chance unique: all attacks crit but the bonus damage is increase by 1% per 1% crit chance instead unique: gain 30% TOTAL attack speed allowing you to go past the attack speed cap

EDIT 1:

I realize I also put forward the issues and suggested solution changes but nothing on why for the thought of the changes.

Warrior - On the loss of CDR (enhances spells) and 15 AD (enhances spells+autos). An inherent advantage AD spell scaling champs have is that AD will always improve their AA damage also, it is a fair loss in trade of an enhanced dirk passive (enhances spell) as well as scaling lethality (enhances spells+autos). The headhunter passive on it's own would sufficiently support every AD assassin jungler just as well but the change to increase it's total average uptime will allow to cater to the more sustained fighter type leaning AD junglers.

Runic - What is needed for the AP scaling junglers is something that more simply supports the kits in a blanket way similar to how death cap does without so blatantly having a mini death cap enchant and not giving a too simple stat stick, it is still desired for it to be unique. It can be respected that the previous procs also offered a way for AP champs to keep up with camp farm with the other types in general. So with those thoughts the idea of the bonus splash centered on the damaged target(s) means that no matter what type of kit is being used (single target vs aoe, burst vs sustained) the fundamental playstyle pattern will be enhanced without being changed or favored one way. Still though because it is a splash effect it should the camp clearing to be otherwise unchanged for the top end, while improved for the bottom end (shout out to any remaining fid junglers out there).

Bloodrazor - This would be the first point in supporting junglers that have a good potential synergy with attack speed, but compared to the current and previous iterations, it will not only purely favor only on hit style when currently there are a number of attack speed synergy junglers that would prefer a crit scaling option or a mix. The ones though that don't have inherent crit scaling in their kits outside of their auto's will not lose out on the built in crit chance since the crit interaction passive will remove the RNG factor of crit chance from their dps pattern while it should be an average zero effect damage change over a long term dps fight. With the attack speed passive there is the removal of the min/max concern of wasted stats/gold value from hitting the attack speed cap which is doable for many of the attack speed junglers with bloodrazor and berzerkers alone with their build in steroids, so the build options open up quite significantly. Its power doesn't scale like past problem cases of feral flare/devourers making the jungler a ticking time bomb in a way that was not as fun to play with (afk farm) and especially against (Items were way to powerful as a single item), or the current case of lacking power and enjoyment for majority of cases.

Out of the concern of the items being poached by lanes, the consideration is that these would still be weaker than other first item rushes for many lane options (Luden rush vs changed runic rush, DB/GB rush vs changed warrior rush, SR rush vs changed bloodrazor rush). There is still the common point of the need to take smite and losing a more effective lane spell. What these would offer compared to now is an option for those aiming for an even stronger late game and for the enemies an improved chance to shut you down before reaching that point from the weaker rush item and loss of lane summoner spell.

17 Comments

Linna Excel9/16/2018, 2:49:43 PM4 votes

item 1400 should probably build out of item 3077. Tiamat's passive is good on all melee AD junglers. Ranged ones might have an issue, but graves wasn't intended to be a jungler in his rework. To be honest, IDK why riot doesn't let ranged champs use the passive.

As for item 1402, I'm not sure what to do with it. Part of me thinks riot should let it be built out of item 3057 and then give it an adaptive stat bonus so AP champs and AD champs could get it. A second option would be item 3916, ap junglers would have less stats with that item, but more penetration.

item 1416 I like, but I play Shyvana when I jungle.

Velasan9/16/2018, 1:49:13 AM3 votes

Interesting ideas. Want to point out though that Cinderhulk has had it's own issues, particularly because it is so heavily tied to how fast tanks can clear (and their clears are usually a lot slower without it). There was also other iterations before Cinderhulk including one that just gave a huge amount of HP and I think it had CDR on it and no damage.

Warrior is indeed boring... though it is also one of the most efficient items for AD so it's hard to say if that is good or bad. Many AD junglers just want to finish their item as quickly as possible and move on to their tri force or other associated damage item.

I would have agreed you with on Runic, but the current iteration is basically just the mirror version to warrior in that provides damage + AP and CDR.

Bloodrazer I feel is just straight up underrated. Several champions do use it (Xin sometimes uses it, Udyr can use it, Yi uses it etc and it's actually good on Warwick for those rare cases you want to go heavier on the damage than tank), and it makes junglers very good at taking objectives quickly.

You are right that they could be more interesting, but they also need to be efficient items for jungling, so it's hard to place that on the same item (i.e. one that scales in an interesting way vs one you can just get quickly with required stats).

Good read though.

Revive Aatrox9/21/2018, 12:07:23 AM2 votes

I think it would be great to summarize this post into a consensus so Riot knows this post has came to some clear recommendation.

in this case the base one is, Jungle item can use a better approach.

We have idea's of jungle item helping clear jungle

  • A fighter approach is to take tiamat,

  • An assasin approach is to take lethality,

  • A spell weaver is to take sheen ( adaptative stats could be nice like a trinity version and a lich bane version)

  • A Marksmen is to take crit/as/aoe effect ( idea's of a runaans passive or something like that)

  • A mage is to take ap with some cool down and splash damage ( ludden'S seems best fitted)

  • A supportive champ could have some kind of supportive enchant for jungler ( ivern per say / could open up some new support jungle )

A tank approach is to take cinder hulk ( this one is kind of the core on what we agree is good design, cause it gives what the user want, better clear and scalling uniform tankyness( health)

So that give's us 7 jungle items.

Counting how many champions there is, its just normal that 4 jungle items won't fit every one but with 7 you broaden the audience.

*If I recall the jungle item with a sheen proc got removed cause Ez and to an extend GP abused it mid lane. ( there's surely a way to prevent that )

ModKnightsKemplar9/15/2018, 2:19:20 PM1 votes

Approved

Alzon9/16/2018, 4:00:48 AM1 votes

I agree with you when you say that the damage-oriented jungle items need an overhaul. As for your suggested enchantments in particular, I believe all three of them are ridiculously powerful and would be 100% poached by laners. Every damage-dealer would build Smite. I do like some of your ideas, though. Here are my takes:

item 1400

Still builds out of item 3133

+30% Base Attack Damage +10% CDR +10% Movement Speed when moving toward nearby enemy champions

item 1402

Still builds out of item 3802

+70 AP +300 Mana Haste

UNIQUE Passive: Spellcasts reduce the cooldown of your other abilities by 0.5 seconds. Cannot be triggered by the same ability more than twice within 8 seconds.

item 1416

Still builds out of item 1043

+35% Attack Speed

UNIQUE Passive: Deal bonus on-hit magic damage equal to 100% of your permanent bonus Attack Speed modifier.

Zaghyr9/18/2018, 10:04:18 PM1 votes

The Lethality on Warrior should not scale with AD, and even if it did, the scaling should not be that high. Any late game AD champ (cough assassins cough) would bust this, for example if shaco had at least 300 bonus AD, which is easy full build, that would mean Warrior is giving him 45 lethality, which is bullshit. IMO warrior should build out of Tiamat and should not be a lethality item.