Karthus' ultimate is too binary, and is in need of more baseline functionality

darkdill··6 votes·19,781 views

As it stands, Requiem is not a very good ultimate in League's current state. While the damage it can deal is potent, it's far too easily countered by item 3102 item 2420 item 3157 item 3814 item 3156 and so on, including high MR items. Various Champions can also block, avoid or heavily reduce it, further reducing its usefulness. This leads to high unreliability, which is bad since Karthus packs all his power into Requiem and can't be too strong elsewhere because of it.

On its own, Requiem is impractical since it only does damage and has a very long cooldown. While you can add a slow with item 3116 , that just isn't enough and doesn't help with Requiem's "easy to avoid" problem. But rather than try to deal with the evasion/blocking issue, which would make Requiem mechanically overpowered, I think that adding some new baseline functionality would be a better option.

To put forth an example, Mephisto in Heroes of the Storm has an ultimate that is basically Karthus' Requiem, but he adds on a reveal and slow effect onto it. Mephisto's version doesn't do as much damage, but the reveal and slow are strong utility, allowing his teammates to track down enemies or catch up to fleeing opponents.

Adding either the slow or reveal onto Requiem would be a big help, extending its effect to more than just raw damage. Raw damage abilities on such a long cooldown are not very viable, and I doubt Riot would've make Requiem like this if Karthus were made today. Between the two effects, I'd go with the baseline slow so that Karthus and Twisted Fate don't have a niche-clash. Adding a slow would allow Karthus to help allies secure kills early on, and when used for teamfights the slow can be very useful to let teammates land AoE abilities. Of course, the wind-up will still cause it to be counterable, but its impact when it successfully hits would become more pronounced. Also, having the slow as a baseline effect means a Karthus player would be able to forgo taking item 3116 and pick up something else, unless he wants the rest of his kit to have slows as well.

While abilities and ultimates that are pure damage are not uncommon, and certainly not unviable, Requiem has that long wind-up and very long cooldown that make its singular function not work that well. With all the new mechanics that have been added over the past few years, it's now easier than ever to avoid it. Karthus hasn't been strong in a long while, primarily because adjusting his numbers is not a good way to adjust his balance. Adding a slow or reveal onto his ultimate would give him some much-needed utility to push him back into more team compositions.

And even if Karthus might be in an okay spot right now (thanks for pointing that out, Ratpie), adding in a baseline slow onto Requiem at some point could allow Riot to have more balance levers to pull.

20 Comments

Galiö7 votes

Honestly I dont mind karthus ult being so basic... in fact it's the only spell in the game with fluff text

'Regardless of distance' when its clear it hits every enemy champion already.

His entire kit has less words than jhins passive.

But all together his ultimate is fine, and iconic.

It's just I would have liked his Q to be altered to something like Neekos Q which is very similar but more interesting.

If his ult had more power or utility in it it would cost power elsewhere in his kit... and that would be no fun especially for such a linear/simple champ. It would ultimately make him feel MORE like a press R champ than he currently does.

Ratpie4 votes

Except Karthus is a beast right now, so you do not need to "push him back into more team compositions". Top 5 win rate and his pick rate is healthy (2-3% pick rate). With 130ish champs in the game, he is fine. For how many champs we have in the game, right now he actually has more than his share of picks.

He does not need more on his ult. I would argue his ult is actually very balanced. It is counterable, but with a smart Karthus you make sure they pull out their defensive items first, or it forces them to burn them all and your team then rolls them while your team has all of theirs left. Where he lacks mobility, his ult doesn't. If there were not ways to counter Karthus ult then it would be OP. Also his ult plays directly with his passive. It is great as a pre-engage or as a finisher. I think some of his win rate right now, is a lot of people not knowing what to do vs him (and a broken DH) since he was really rare to ever see for several seasons. Once people learn more to play around him I think it will balance out. I actually think Karthus is one of the better balanced champs atm.

darkdill1 votes

That may be so, but should Karthus fall out of favor, this is one thing they could try so they have more balance levers to pull.

To be honest, I didn't realize Karthus was so good right now. As you said, Dark Harvest really favors him now.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

That may be so, but should Karthus fall out of favor, this is one thing they could try so they have more balance levers to pull.

To be honest, I didn't realize Karthus was so good right now. As you said, Dark Harvest really favors him now.

The whole items counter karthus thing doesnt matter

Recently I HAD A GAME I told my Leona to rush locket because our teamcomp had 0 shields vs karthus (typically you want lux/karma in your team vs him) Leona rushed support item into locket but by that time the game was already over. After a game I screamed at her for NOT LITERALY rushing locket

Infact I rushed Locket to playing irelia. Trinity into locket By the time I got locket karthus had 14 kills so its to late for a counter...

Itemization counters other then tabi/hexdrinker are quite bad in league. I guess you can put stopwatch in that book

darkdill1 votes

Locket doesn't work all by itself. Your teammates also need to get MR, or the shields get overmatched easily.

FoamingStuff1 votes

{quoted}

Except Karthus is a beast right now, so you do not need to "push him back into more team compositions". Top 5 win rate and his pick rate is healthy (2-3% pick rate). With 130ish champs in the game, he is fine. For how many champs we have in the game, right now he actually has more than his share of picks.

He does not need more on his ult. I would argue his ult is actually very balanced. It is counterable, but with a smart Karthus you make sure they pull out their defensive items first, or it forces them to burn them all and your team then rolls them while your team has all of theirs left. Where he lacks mobility, his ult doesn't. If there were not ways to counter Karthus ult then it would be OP. Also his ult plays directly with his passive. It is great as a pre-engage or as a finisher. I think some of his win rate right now, is a lot of people not knowing what to do vs him (and a broken DH) since he was really rare to ever see for several seasons. Once people learn more to play around him I think it will balance out. I actually think Karthus is one of the better balanced champs atm.

I beg to differ. The fact that another problematic mechanic of the game makes Karthus indeed "more than valuable" in the current meta, does not make Karthus viable, or at least fun to play, in and of itself. At the end of the day, whether or not you believe Karthus' R is useful or not, I at least find it unreliable and more importantly, highly annoying. In many ways, though perhaps not in higher elo's, Karthus is make or break: he's either useless, or he's very oppressive.

I'm of the personal opinion that abilities and champions should not be 'toxic', by which I mean that they should promote interesting and engaging gameplay rather than generate frustration. I do think Karthus' R is one of such abiliities, though there are of course a lot more (and worse at that, Teemo R comes to mind). Viability or not should not be considered within the context of gameplay. I recognize "fun or not" is a matter of opinion, but in the general broad terms, I do think that Karthus' ult could benefit from being revisited.

KFCeytron2 votes

There are many instances of specific hard counters, like channels vs interrupts and projectiles vs intercepts (Yasuo and Braum), and most of their criticism comes when someone finds themselves on the wrong end of such an interaction. Requiem has a three-second window for counterplay like spellshields, interrupts, or heals/shields, specifically because there's no other way to avoid it. I think it works as a high point for whichever side succeeds, without necessarily forcing people to prioritize it above all else.

ModUlanopo1 votes

Approved

Ratpie1 votes

Its more than just Dark Harvest, DH definitely doesn't hurt his situation. And sadly it won't be if the players fall out of favor, but if he falls out of favor with Rito and they nerf him down to nothing since he is not one of their love affairs. Can't have a nonmobile AP caster doing so well after all. /S

There probably will be some change soon though, there are several champions pushing 60% win rates in SR, which is a bit much on any champ.

Ratpie1 votes

I really think he just looks like "press R and win" champ, but he offers a lot more to team fights, his w is a massive slow, and his Q hits like a truck.

hater free zone1 votes

maybe give it some true dmg ratios as it's base damage if it becomes too easy to counter?

The Bad Touch1 votes

Karthus is def in my top 5 for needing a rework.... and I generally HATE reworks. He's both effective and feels terrible to play.

Not a good combo.

HarbingerGrape1 votes

IMO Karthus needs a new passive and e or be mad into a bruiser mage like vlad but without the healing and keep the e and rework the q he needs something because he is either very viable or oppresive or a piece of garbage because his kit is so simple i think his passive should be the spells being able to crit or something him being a "crit" mage actually sounds pretty cool to me The ult could also be changed to be like diablo ult Apocolypse from HotS

Cloud2731 votes

{quoted}

As it stands, Requiem is not a very good ultimate in League's current state. While the damage it can deal is potent, it's far too easily countered by item 3102 item 2420 item 3157 item 3814 item 3156 and so on, including high MR items. Various Champions can also block, avoid or heavily reduce it, further reducing its usefulness. This leads to high unreliability, which is bad since Karthus packs all his power into Requiem and can't be too strong elsewhere because of it.

On its own, Requiem is impractical since it only does damage and has a very long cooldown. While you can add a slow with item 3116 , that just isn't enough and doesn't help with Requiem's "easy to avoid" problem. But rather than try to deal with the evasion/blocking issue, which would make Requiem mechanically overpowered, I think that adding some new baseline functionality would be a better option.

To put forth an example, Mephisto in Heroes of the Storm has an ultimate that is basically Karthus' Requiem, but he adds on a reveal and slow effect onto it. Mephisto's version doesn't do as much damage, but the reveal and slow are strong utility, allowing his teammates to track down enemies or catch up to fleeing opponents.

Adding either the slow or reveal onto Requiem would be a big help, extending its effect to more than just raw damage. Raw damage abilities on such a long cooldown are not very viable, and I doubt Riot would've make Requiem like this if Karthus were made today. Between the two effects, I'd go with the baseline slow so that Karthus and Twisted Fate don't have a niche-clash. Adding a slow would allow Karthus to help allies secure kills early on, and when used for teamfights the slow can be very useful to let teammates land AoE abilities. Of course, the wind-up will still cause it to be counterable, but its impact when it successfully hits would become more pronounced. Also, having the slow as a baseline effect means a Karthus player would be able to forgo taking item 3116 and pick up something else, unless he wants the rest of his kit to have slows as well.

While abilities and ultimates that are pure damage are not uncommon, and certainly not unviable, Requiem has that long wind-up and very long cooldown that make its singular function not work that well. With all the new mechanics that have been added over the past few years, it's now easier than ever to avoid it. Karthus hasn't been strong in a long while, primarily because adjusting his numbers is not a good way to adjust his balance. Adding a slow or reveal onto his ultimate would give him some much-needed utility to push him back into more team compositions.

And even if Karthus might be in an okay spot right now (thanks for pointing that out, Ratpie), adding in a baseline slow onto Requiem at some point could allow Riot to have more balance levers to pull.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. The fact that it forces you to buy those defensive items makes it a VERY strong ult. Karthus already has a 53% win rate. Do we really need to buff him?

SettDownShutUp1 votes

I'll be honest, I don't want to judge Karthus until the Dark Harvest issue is dealt with first.

Gilgayu1 votes

Karthus is useless early game.

Then late game you question what is the point of having an adc.

Karthus's 3 items power spike (item 3027 item 3040 item 3116 ) is so strong that he outscales most mid-laners with the exceptions of kass and cass and a few others. It is a little hard to land your q without rylai's for how easy it is to just side-step it. After rylai's, though, you can melt down tanks and adcs with easy and kite them despite your lack of mobility.

Games are just too short these days for these scaling mid-laners to shine.

King I Rat1 votes

I disagree. This ultimate is fine, it's a simple but effective spell that has counterplay, something we rarely see these days in League. Adding a bunch of additional effects simply to add effects to the spell is bad design. There is nothing that can be added to Karthus ultimate that will synergize with his other spells.

Slaxer1 votes

haha remember when karthus was irrelevant for 3 seasons and now he's actually decent

excelsheet11 votes

I would like to see a mini rework for Karthus. But, his ult is iconic.

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