The Dilemma of Nasus: Strong in lower elo and weak in higher elo

Swiftstrike4·8/29/2018, 12:18:37 AM·5 votes·28,762 views

I have mained Nasus since season 5 and I have achieved Platinum on two accounts and bounce around between Plat 1 and Plat III on him.

Nasus is a pretty unique champion. He has really obvious strengths and clear weaknesses that are more easily exploited the higher you climb up the ladder.

He is a strong split pusher and duelist with pretty good scaling, but he is highly susceptible to getting kited. The higher you climb, the better opponents get at "kiting out" Nasus and punishing him in lane.

The central problem with Nasus is that he is serviceable in Gold and Lower elo and begins to get "outclassed" by other champions in platinum. By mid to high Diamond, Nasus's weaknesses are wildly apparent and he struggles to have significant impact in a game.

Nasus has three central problems have become more acute since I started playing:

  1. Mobility creep
  2. Indirect nerfs
  3. Damage creep

Nasus has only been directly buffed since I started playing. He had his ultimate buffed 2x, gained a lifesteal buff recently, had his spirit fire pool changes to a % armor shred, and even had the AA range of his Siphoning Strike extend. Nasus keeps getting directly buffed, but still struggles to maintain a 50% win rate and usually sits at 47 to 48% prior direct buffs.

Most of this is directly attributable to the three things that negatively impact his play.

**Mobility creep - **This problem is mainly attributable to newer champions kits and reworks of older champion providing them some type of dash or mobility steroid. This is a problem when players begin to get better at kiting Nasus. Right now item 3095 is a good example of mobility creep. It provides all ADCs a 20% movement speed steroid for their initial attack. This actually allows a lot of ADCs to trade on a Nasus they encounter and stay out of wither range. Or at the minimum, makes it difficult for him to respond to a range champion. This is just one example, but it is making it difficult for Nasus to get near champions with ranged autos unless the passive is down. The damage isn't the issue, it's the MS passive. There are other instances of mobility creep, but reworks of Akali and Urgot, newer champions like Zoe Ornn Kaisa and Rakan have lead to a higher amount of mobility in the game just generally speaking. A lot of newer champions have dashes, go untargetable, and have blinks. Nasus has to account for those in a game along with the CDR proliferating to more and more items. This gives champions higher access to their mobility abilities and any CC they might have in their kit. Mo CDR on items has lead to Mo problems for Nasus because abilities just come off cooldown faster AND Nasus already built max CDR since I started playing. Other champions in the past did not achieve max CDR or have itemization routes where they could achieve max CDR easily. Now support itemization routes along with a lot of mage item trees have given them full 30 to 40% CDR fairly easily. I could discuss mobility creep in greater detail, but the concluding point should be that mobility creep is problematic for Nasus even though he has one of the most potent slows in the game.

Indirect Nerfs - This is usually when items change because they are overtuned on other champions (that aren't Nasus). Frequently whenever tank items are "too strong" and changed this leads to an indirect nerf for Nasus. These changes are typically related to other abusers that not Nasus, with probably talisman of ascension being the only recent item change that was attributable to it being "strong" on Nasus. The major indirect nerfs I have seen were the implementation of Mastery system and then the roll out of the new Rune system. Both added damage to several champions kits and frequently took away resistances or defensive stat allocation that benefited Nasus. The rune rollout removed the ability to simply set a full defensive rune page or begin a game with 10 or 15% CDR. Both of which, really helped Nasus! The ability to customize rune pages to the matchup or to load up on defense really alleviated a lot of pressure on Nasus. Now one can't just take 12 armor runes in a tough matchup. The changes didn't really benefit Nasus either because most of the runes don't really synergize with his kit. Even grasp of the undying is an average keystone rune simply because Nasus doesn't really trade too much in lane to proc it. Most champions benefited from the changes in some way and this was not necessarily the case with Nasus. The removal of Stormraiders surge really hurt Nasus ability to zip out of a fight to safety after doing damage.

There are other changes to items too that impacted him negatively such as item 3025 item 3053 item 3512 item 3800 and item 3026. More frequently nerfs to tank items or the stat changes on tank items hurt Nasus. Nasus really just wants raw defensive stats, mana, and CDR. The items that give him the most of those stats is how he should be itemizing. When those items are adjusted because tanks are a little too potent with that item route then it hurts Nasus's build, which is simply "give me one or two offensive items and a bunch of defensive stats."

Damage Creep - The game's damage has steadily gone up with the implementation of the mastery system in the past, the changes to items, and then the recent rune changes. It isn't that the arrow has always gone straight north, sometimes it sharply goes upward and other times riot tries to lower it (such as the recent changes to several runes in the domination tree) and changes to ADC items. Still, the overall trajectory has been to speed up game pacing and usually that result is attributable to damage being higher a earlier levels and via itemization changes. I do think Riot over the last several months are cognizant of both problems and they have been trying to pull back early level damage and push higher damage towards the later game. However, the proliferation of true damage to solve early burst damage has lowered Nasus's dueling power. Early damage is bad for Nasus and it always has been bad, but scaling true damage has also hurt his longer game.

**Overbuffing and Underwhelming? ** Right now Riot could face the problem of overbuffing Nasus at lower elo. Similar to how Garen appears overtuned in lower elo but not in higher elo because players are just better at kiting him.

Currently, I think Nasus is pretty underwhelming to play and is not sufficiently rewarded for safely scaling. He is also hitting his power spike with fewer stacks because he is not starting with the 10 to 15% CDR he use to get. He is forced to build CDR early because he has to get stacks fast. This makes it so that his item tree often looks like a used garage sale of components such as item 3067 item 3024 and item 3057. It use to be he could start with 10 or 15% CDR and achieve 40% at exactly the time he spikes. Now he can only start with 5% CDR and can only hit 40% CDR if he takes trancendence with that build. He now must build ANOTHER component or two incredibly expensive items to get to 40% CDR. So Nasus's itemization looks like item 3025 item 3067 and item 3024 (4,400) or he just buys item 3078 and item 3110 for 6,433 to get 40% CDR.

It is currently very difficult to achieve 400 at 20 or 500 at 20 because you simply don't get the starting CDR for it.

Either way, it's a terrible build route without transcendence and he is still missing out on the early starting CDR, which is typically when Nasus does most of his early stacking.

_Solving problems _ I think Riot has several options to hopefully maintain Nasus's relevance in Plat+ without overbuffing him in Gold or lower. Here are my suggestions. Each

  1. An additional mechanic for stacks achieved - This could be something as simple as "for every 100 stacks gain 5% tenacity" or "for every 100 stacks gain 10 armor" . It doesn't have to be these things specifically and the stat could be different at each threshold. The point is this would reward Nasus's ability to stack and proficient play with him. It would also give him something that will benefit him as he spikes in the game. If you don't stack well you simply lose out on the modest stat.
  2. Lowering siphoning strikes cooldown by about 1 second across levels. I checked the math on this, and if this is lowered at early levels it is very close to started with 10% CDR. This will give him enough cooldown to achieve higher stacks at earlier levels. This will make it so that he can spike quicker and have more map presence via higher stack damage. It still doesn't fix other problems, but it does make him relevant if he stacks well like last season when he could start with high CDR. It also rewards safely stacking and champion proficiency
  3. **Direct stat buffs - **This is the route I don't want to keep going with Nasus. Simply modest Nasus buffs will make him more viable in higher elo. He has really low base and scaling health for example. But I think by doing this he could become the new "Garen" which is overbearing in lower elo.
  4. **Provide a rune choice to have early starting CDR - **Would give up most of my runes if I could start with 10 or 15% CDR. I rather just have my power a bit quicker and would give up early runes to just get a customizable CDR option.

38 Comments

Ifneth8/30/2018, 2:15:07 AM7 votes

Nasus needs a new kit.

His strategy is, “I’m gonna right click minions for twenty minutes, and if the game isn’t over yet, then I’m going to go on a rampage for ten.”

His tactic is, “I’m gonna run at this turret and try to kill anyone in my way by running at them, under turret if necessary.”

That’s all he’s good for. Once the carries build scaling penetration, a single early cc during a teamfight will lead to a chain during which he will die.

Those absolutely hard counter-plays are necessary, however, because if Nasus ever gets near you with enough HP, then you’re just dead. W-E-R-Q-Q-Q-Q... Ironically, the counters are the only way to defeat him.

Linna Excel8/29/2018, 10:20:40 PM5 votes

TBH, what I really think Nasus needs is a limit to how many stacks of Q he can get, perhaps get rid of the stacking mechanic completely. That would help him immensely because his sole focus is no longer stacking Q all bloody game while his teammates are forced to 4v5 to defend a turret.

Nasus, will you group?
Nasus No, I'm farming top.
Nasus will you group?
Nasus No I'm farming Krugs.
Nasus will you group?
Nasus No I'm farming top again. Nasus will you defend the base now that 4 of us are dead and we have an inhibitor down? Nasus Are there minions there? Yes. Nasus Okay.
ACED! Nasus Wait, the enemy team just collapsed on me because I wasn't checking the map. Enemy Team has slain Baron Nashor

Yes. If anything, doing something about Nasus' infinite stacking might be the best place to start fixing him. It'd also be better for the other guy because then Nasus couldn't one shot a squishy champ with just a Q + TF proc. It'd also help the game because towers are too weak these days for Nasus to be healthy with his current Q. He revolves a little too much on Q farming all game, while it's good, it's also too much focus for one skill. In ARAM, good nasus players don't even bother that much with his Q. They go AP bruiser and are still able to be relevant in the game. So it's not like you have to focus his game around his Q either.

TheSingularity8/30/2018, 1:37:53 AM4 votes

The difference between low and high elo is purely due to his stat stick kit.

Think about other stat stick champions likeDrMundo Pantheon Rengar Teemo Udyr Volibear MonkeyKing Vayne There is one deciding factor. You either have the stats to win or you lose. Because of this the best way to deal with them is to 2v1 (gank)

In lower elo, where junglers generally spend a little more time picking where to gank rather than having a pre determined path planned out (and likely failing ganks more often). Unless the Susan's opponent has picked someone like darius, olaf or teemo, nasus can simply sustain through just about everything they throw at him. You either have brutal poke (teemo), you kill him in one go (darius) or both (olaf). If you lack any you lose alone. Once you hit high elo doe, this is irrelevant as top will freeze and jungle will camp for free gold.

Disagree with the CD reduction on his Q. Shoving him under tower used to be the counter strat (not anymore as the community as a whole has simply gotten better at managing him under tower). Buffing the CD will only make last hitting under tower easier for him (while also buffing his ult). Reducing what little counterplay he has. If he was given a limited maximum dmg vs minions I'd be fine with it (to make last hitting harder regardless of the cooldown).

Perhaps impose a change that adds no bonus dmg to minions until he hits X stacks (I'd go 100). This will punish bad players while leaving those who're good alone. Then as a reward for executing a minion, the next Q has 1 second taken off its cooldown at all ranks.

Potentially also up the mana cost of wither at later ranks (similar to spirit fire). If we want to give him more tools based off stacks. HE NEEDS! a piss poor early game. Not one he can easily sustain through (no kill pressure isn't a weak early game)

Spoofghoul9/7/2018, 7:05:38 PM2 votes

A long long time ago in a thread far far away

I said something similar about Nasus so this isn't anything new

However my fix was a bit different

i advocated for a new passive

This new passive would be his stacking mechanic, however it was now able to stack all of his abilities

Kill stuff with E it gets stronger more damage mild slow Kill enemies under the effect of W it gets stronger more attackspeed slow more armorshred lower cooldown Kill stuff with Q it gets stronger like increased life steal and damage

I made some other changes like moving the armor shred to W but reducing the slow effect And with stacks in E it would get a mild slow so i spread his cc a bit

Additionally E and W could be combined sort of to allow for a different ability Well you get the point

The end goal of this idea was quite simple give more tools for sticking to target hence some of the spreading of his slows

And second, to allow for different forms of scaling, this way you are not solely reliant on stacking Q This would make Nasus less one dimensional

chipndip18/31/2018, 6:18:37 PM1 votes

Excessively high reliability champs will always have these issues where they're either too good for low elo or not good enough for higher elos. Either the guy needs substantial kit changes or you need to get over it and play someone else. That's not me being toxic, either. I opted for the latter, myself.

Carnicore8/31/2018, 9:23:20 PM1 votes

The simplest solution I think would be to cap his stacks at some number like 600 or 800, and then give him buffs like those you suggested. It could have "soft caps" like diminishing returns on stacking if you had abnormally high stacks during some part of the game. It would also be cool if he was immune to displacement spells (e.g. Alistar W, Gnar ult) during his ult, since he can't really counter these spells with tenacity or QSS.

Dicerson9/2/2018, 10:08:40 PM1 votes

Suggestion- What if his stacks Capped out at about 300, and stacked a bit slower (so 2/4 damage per kill instead of 3/6). But, once you hit 300 stacks and cap out, the damage doubles (or he gets some other massive buff as a result). Basically just a quest minigame. This way, nasus is still focused on farming and stacking, and it's still a significant part of his kit, but he isn't forced into it for the entire duration of the game, and once he's done stacking he can go off and rampage around.

Though that doesn't really fix the kiting issues, I agree that there is significant mobility creep. Perhaps the solution then is just a rework of his entire kit, because as it stands there isn't really a way to help him deal with higher mobility other than just giving him better mobility or better CC

Saezio9/4/2018, 6:39:23 AM1 votes

OK this will be a bit radical but what if they doubled Q range but made it a skillshot? Kinda like Yas Q. Or keep it as it is for minions and hold to skillshot on champs? This should nerf him enough on low elo while buffing him high elo. An even more radical idea would be to make nasus rank up abilities based on stacks instead of levels. like at 20 stacks you get another skill point, then at 40 then at 75 etc. Still base stats scale with level but not skill points. And compensate with some mobility buffs

BlinkZZ1829/4/2018, 3:33:07 PM1 votes
  1. Increase the stack gained per kill by Q to 5/10
  2. Set a cap on Q stack according to level (20-530 stacks, level 1-18, increased by 30 per level)
  3. Add conditional hard cc to W or/and E. (1) Roots everyone inside the range of E for 0.75s when its duration ends (2) Q will stun the enemy for 0.5s if the said enemy is also slowed by W (the stun will prolong the slow)

Now nasus can be somewhat more useful in teamfights starting from early on. I should no longer see autistic Nasuss splitpushing all game without having any impact on the game when his 4 teammates are being towerdived and slaughtered

La Bello9/5/2018, 11:42:57 AM1 votes

Those suggested changes imply you simply want Nasus to be strong when what Nasus needs is to be HEALTHY.

his kit is from a bygone era and has aged like cheese.

back then in Season 1~2 when EVERYONE was a low-counterplay statcheck sure he was fine among friends (Garen MasterYi DrMundo Jax Kayle Tryndamere Trundle ) but since then League has gotten a LOT more dynamic than that. new law of claw dictates that he has to be modernized

deltemp9515129/17/2018, 1:08:04 AM1 votes

His W, imo, needs reworked. When Nasus is ahead, it gives no way to play against him. You can't run or fight him you just have to accept your death. When he is behind, it gives no real benefit.

This is the biggest problem I see in his kit.

Rekkon10/7/2018, 1:24:39 PM1 votes

No, Nasus needs either a complete rework or a nerf to the fucking ground so that he is unplayable forcing him a rework. I'll explain my hatred in a detailed and well-established reason list:

  • Nasus offers to the game nothing but tankiness and damage. Tankiness for one because he has a passive giving him life steal, equaling sustain in lane, and damage because of his Q which stacks. Not only do you have a lot of damage as a tank, but you don't even have to build damage to do so. What's worse is that with his ultimate he becomes even better a tank, meaning he is unkillable unless the entire enemy team focuses him down while delivering tons of damage in a single ability with highly low cooldown. No this is not what a tank does. A tank delivers CC and utility, while being in the front of their team to block enemy projectiles. Since tanks are made to survive, it really is stupid when they start doing brainless damage. People keep complaining about ADCs and their stupid upfront damage with item 3095 when Nasus is no better, especially when he doesn't need to spend gold for damage. Imagine the oneshots if he did build such items while remaining healthy because of his passive and general tank stats.
  • Nasus has a really easy to play kit. None of his abilities require any skill, you just point and click with your Q, W, E and then you apply a broken-ass self-buff with the press of a single button. No channeling, no relative cost, no warning. Just R.
  • Nasus is as useless in a teamfight as Rengar. Both have something in common, they have little CC and burst down single enemies. Their main difference is that Nasus dies really hard when caught out and does not need items to do damage, compared to Rengar. A teamworking game requires anything but that, let alone in a tank. I keep complaining about tanks and that's because they have extra damage which does not have a reason to be there. The support class has so bad damage output because they offer utility, which is their purpose. And that is what tanks should be about.
  • Nasus is really boring and linear. All he does is brainlessly all-in you with his W, E and R, while spamming Qs and basic attacks leading to your death. If that wasn't enough, he uses summoner 14 to secure your ass before you run away safely to your escape. I don't feel good when I play such champions. Sure, oneshotting someone looks "fun" for once in a normal game. But the champion becomes unfun, completely boring and miserable.

"Okay then Hash Jr., what do you want him to do?"

Rework. Simply make that doggy Pharaoh a little more interesting. Give him a leap, because he is a dog. Or don't and make him a tank. Or make him throw a curse on you with a more interesting ability with a weird shape or some sort. Just not this. Remember Akali? The old Akali everyone hated playing against? That stupidly overpowered champion who brainlessly dashed onto you, threw a Q and proc'd it with the basic attack synergizing with her passive and a item 3100. That thing got reworked. What it became is another topic, but at least she is annoying in a more interesting way. Nasus is just something you can't do much about. Only if you chain CC you might kill him, and if you don't kill him, you will live the 70s again in that B&W panel.

Nasus shouldn't be what he is because honestly League is not a boring game. Opinions saying it is a broken or unbalanced or whatever might hold, but it's anything but boring. You will not be bored because of the mechanics that have been implemented. Nasus is a toxic champion in the pool and needs to be changed "to match the current style of the game".

Regarding kiting, not everyone can kite easily. He perfectly counters assassins because they rely on being in melee range to deliver the damage with their combo and then escape. While doing so, Nasus will throw 2 Qs and delete you faster than the game itself once you get fed up with that "gameplay". At least assassins do fancy moves and stuff before throwing you in the dumpster, whereas Nasus be like "BAM".

Yes I keep bitching a lot about this, but I am not alone or wrong. Nasus needs a different type of counter in order to be countered effectively. You can't dodge (other than the queue), reset, recall, teleport, flash, blink, dash, anything. If he decides to point on you and press the magic button, it will happen. All you did was be there since you wanted to play your lane and farm. Even if you're going for a little poke, while your damage might slightly hurt him, he won't even feel it a second after because he passively has 12% life steal. I still don't get what the reasoning behind increasing that shit was, given how sustainable he is. If they wanted to make him slightly more viable "in high ELO" all they did is annoy the asses of everyone against that because he is now stronger "in low ELO". Players in that "low ELO" who play more interesting, difficult, or anyhow skilled champions are gonna suffer that "BAM" because their teammate went full degenerate and inted.

Realistically speaking he is even more unplayable in higher ELO and much stronger in low ELO after the buff, whereas the exact opposite should happen. He'd rather be legitimately unplayable in all ranks than face an easy and hardly countered tanky burst champion.

TL;DR rework this shit because the least we want is the game to become point and click madness again. At least we should delete enemy health bars with a little more skill than that (talking about you Zed).

Gilgayu11/20/2018, 1:00:40 AM1 votes

Ideas:

As nasus is one of those tanks that can make you feel like you can 1v5 (and also following the theme of his lore), I would make these changes.


q : fine as it is now, but after 300 stacks, allow the next auto to slow enemies by 30% for 0.3 seconds This will be a small buff, but it will allow high elo's that farm better to chase their opponents down easier without having to max his w


w : I would keep it as it is, but applying an additional reduction of attack speed, even as little as 10%, would help Nasus survive kites and lock down enemy carries during team fights.


e : honestly received enough buffs, I would increase the mana cost early ranks and decrease it late


His ult should give him 10/20/30ms, allow him to ignore slows, change stuns into 25% slows for equal duration, and give him 10/20/35% extra armor/mr instead of the flat amount. The rest should remain the same

This would allow him to actually go deep into the enemy team without worrying being cc-ed to death, and allow his carry potentials to be much greater.

ModUlanopo8/29/2018, 9:48:09 PM1 votes

Approve.

MessyStuff2/14/2019, 5:25:09 AM1 votes

The thing is that seeing all the comments, you want to keep Nasus as a simple champion. But the thing is that simple champs don't work in high elo. There is no way to make them work in high elo without extremely in low elo. He's like MasterYi in that case and unless he's more complex(which you don't want), there is no way to fix his problem.

japhib8/30/2018, 1:36:04 AM1 votes

Nasus is not unique in that sense at all. Literally every champion that is a certain age is “simple” enough that they have to have good base numbers to be viable in low-mid elo, but since they’re so simple people are better at outplaying them at higher elo with more versatile champions.

See also Amumu Annie DrMundo Garen Kayle MasterYi Pantheon

Edit: I wanted to add that none of your buff suggestions would really help overcome the problem of him being good at low elo but not high, since they’re all pretty straightforward buffs that just make him stronger without really giving more options. In other words your suggestions would make him just plain better, but it’s only a matter of time before he would be outclassed again by champs with dashes, CC, or more mobility.

The one suggestion I like is to give him scaling tenacity with stacks. It would effectively make him more mobile when ahead, allowing for more counter play as him.

Another option would be to make one of his skills more time windowed, since other than the Q they’re all just long skills that have an effect for a long time, in a large area in E’s case. For example the Garen treatment where he got 75% tenacity for the first .75 seconds of his W, makes timing the W crucial. So if Nasus got a bunch of tenacity for the firs 2 seconds of his ult, or the W slow was reduced but he got movement speed towards that enemy and/or damage reduction against the affected enemy, it would give him more meaningful choices about skill use in the middle of a big fight.

Spicy Rice8/30/2018, 1:37:53 AM1 votes

Personally, I think what we would need for Nasus is for him to be able to Ground targets with wither.

Granted, you wouldn't be able to just tack it on without nasus becoming extremely dominant in the top lane.

Maybe something along the lines of 50% slow at rank 5, 25% cripple at rank 5, and grounding the target for the duration of wither

Onandaga8/31/2018, 10:50:14 AM1 votes

I think the best and most faithful way to change him would be to go more in-depth with his stacking mechanic and make it more vital that he stack well. Currently he spikes so hard with just his Ult and a triforce that he can often get away with stacking poorly in lane and kill his laner regardless. Weaken his stats, strengthen his stacks.