Can we stop please with "because high ELO" arguments and look at the bigger picture?

GripaAviara··47 votes·37,225 views

I think one of the most unhealthy and divisive things in this game is: "ah you see that champion, he's weak in high ELO so stop complaining"

I find it baffling how people think is ok to point out that argument when 90% of the players are gold and below (https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/rank-distribution) . We are not just talking about the slight majority here, or even a great deal of, we are talking about almost every player. If the game doesn't cater to almost every player then how is that ok?

And while the logic goes: " Yeah but dude that's where the champions are actually played with and against at the fullest and optimal potential". And yes, whilst this is very true, it's not the whole picture.

And I think besides damage here is the most frustrating part of the current game, on that persists since the dawn of the game.

The game is a 5v5 game where you have almost 0 control on 4 or at best 3 of your teammates. More than half the team is a big variable in this equation and should be factored in when talking about balance. You can play the most optimal "high ELO" way and still, the game is out of your grasp.

Yes, I'm talking about hyperscaling champions in general.

Like for example how polarizing Master Yi is. If you as the average player you'll hear he's OP. If you ask the high ELO players, he's average to bad. And who's right? Well, both are. Because the game is a completely different experience with highly skilled teammates vs average ones.

And this is because of his flawed design. Before continuing, no, master yi is not the only champion in this position, it' just an example.

In a perfect game on both sides, he power spikes very hard late mid game and early late game. He then goes back to average in end game. This is what makes him meh .. if you are a pro and look at his kit. Games are shorter, so he won't be much good in the meta and for a slow starter you want an end game beast, and you get an average ninja.

Now let's look at the other side of the coin, actually in 4 of 5 out of 90% of the games (low ELO), that's like 70% (almost 3 out of 4) of the games. In this ELO people don't play safe and make tons of mistakes. Because of the sheer average amount of early kills happening in game, it's easy with a hypermobile champion to grab a low hanging "kill" by simply waiting a little more, punishing overextension, etc. That late mid-game hard power spike gets way earlier. And the disaster assures. You get a hypermobile killing machine with little counterplay other than a cc chain.

Ok, not convinced? Well, there's a reason why I picked Yi. Gold Funneling. Yi hasn't got PVP nerfers since gold funneling, only affecting lane creep farming.

And that technique was exactly what's happening in those 70% of the games. Easy gold for a faster powerspike. It was that broken because he is that broken in those games, just he doesn't have the tools to actually do that in a safe high ELO game.

Stopping gold funneling didn't solve the overall problem, just the problem of bringing low ELO problems in high ELO games.

I think this game needs to look at those champions and get rid of this flawed game design. Not only it makes those champions a hell in low ELO, but they are rarely ever used or useful in high ELO.

So the question naturally arises: Why keep them in this state if they are unbalanced (both over for low and under for high) for any ELO?

107 Comments

chipndip137 votes

There is a very strong reason as to why the "weak in high elo" argument exists.

For ANY competitive game EVER, you don't balance around the average players. You balance around the better ones. Better players exploit the game better and more often. Better players make the most out of the tools they're given. Better players define the meta. Better players are more dependent on an actually balanced game in order to enjoy the game, whereas lesser players are more casual and don't even realize when something might be awry balance-wise until it's made readily apparent (they won't think something like Janna's OP as quick as they think a carry champ like Yasuo is OP). Thus, better players are a better standard to balance the game around. No competitive game worth its salt would ever make a majority of its balance decisions around lesser players. Like...IMAGINE how absolutely bonkers Ryze would be if we had to wait for him to be "pretty good" in low elo before dealing with him? He'd be absolutely insane.

Now, to answer about champion design and how it correlates into this discussion, Riot's been steadily trying to go through the list of champs like Yi to make them healthier game play experiences so there's less discrepancy between their low, high, and pro elo power levels. In other words, Riot probably agrees with you and is hoping to deal with Yi one day. However, that's "one day", not "today".

Lauchmelder4 votes

{quoted}

There is a very strong reason as to why the "weak in high elo" argument exists.

For ANY competitive game EVER, you don't balance around the average players. You balance around the better ones. Better players exploit the game better and more often. Better players make the most out of the tools they're given. Better players define the meta. Better players are more dependent on an actually balanced game in order to enjoy the game, whereas lesser players are more casual and don't even realize when something might be awry balance-wise until it's made readily apparent (they won't think something like Janna's OP as quick as they think a carry champ like Yasuo is OP).

This is just one side of the coin though. Balancing around mid-high plat+ is the right thing to do, disregarding every argument or complaint any player below that certain threshold makes is the completely wrong approach to a discussion.

Aka: Balancing around high elo is fine and barely anybody is gonna complain about it, but if those high elo players then come to the boards or reddit and disregard everything you say as "low elo opinion" then we've got a big problem.

I have seen low silver players argue about Tryndamere being broken and they brought up some good arguments. The only way to try to change their minds is to argue back with reason and proof. "Well you're just silver so you need to git gud" is the wrong approach to do that.

I think this high elo argumentation is one of the reasons the boards have gotten worse over time. If nobody tries to start a civilized back and forth discussion we hit a standstill.

People have to start thinking about the arguments their counterpart makes again. They've got a reason to believe in something. Listen to them, debunk their arguments with facts, hints, tips and tricks on how to play against that champion or strategy or enhance the points they make by your own findings. They might stop posting about it, leaving more space open for new discussions or the discussion might take off and get the attention of a developer who brings it up in a meeting.

GripaAviara7 votes

For ANY competitive game EVER, you don't balance around the average players

Except you do. The original Dota was balanced around casual players and went on to be a legend. Ofc you have to tune the game for high ELO also and take in consideration what a champion does in highly skilled and high reflex hands.

Also, afk atm Overwatch is again catering to the average player, this doesn't mean mediocre but not superstar also

Just think about this: if a champion needs to be in check by high team skill, then there's a problem since like stated 70% of the games might lack that

chipndip113 votes

Except you don't.

If you're looking for temporary appeal, go ahead. If you're looking for long term staying power like Riot is, you don't look at what reels in the immediate hype. You look at what sustains your scene for the long run. Balancing around casuals isn't how you do that. Period. There's PLENTY of competitive games to choose from as examples in this regard.

Am I saying "forsake silver players"? No, no one is. Still, balancing around low elo should be done relatively sparingly. Low elo players don't have a sense of what's ACTUALLY balanced.

GripaAviara6 votes

Balancing around casuals

Except low ELO ppl are not casual. We are not talking about normal, we are talking about ppl that play hundreds of games, which are many.

Low elo players don't have a sense of what's ACTUALLY balanced.

They don't have too, it's absurd to ask that from the majority of people. I'm not asking for people to actually do the balance

We are not talking about temporary appeal. And nobody is saying they don't have to tune the game for high ELO. Azir doesn't have to b be buffed for high ELO because he underperforms on low ELO, but champs like Master YI need to be changed so they don't highly over perform in low ELO. One is to tune a game and one is to build the game around something

chipndip18 votes

On your first point, if you play hundreds of games and you're still Silver, then something's wrong with your understanding of the game or your application of what you understand, and centering balance around you is still a bad idea regardless.

On your second point, I already made that point in my first post here, so I agree that the best course of action for major outlier kits like Yi and Azir's is to change them on the fundamental level so they aren't such difficult balancing acts.

Starcraft243ver3 votes

Low ELO are casual (by low elo I mean everyone below d1 obviously). Not by the time they spend on the game, but by the way they are playing it.

There's a whole world between training and playing, you might just see two people staying 10 hours a day in front of their computer and notice no difference. The difference is in the mindset.

When i'm playing LoL and I die, i'm like "ups, well, not a big deal" or "fuck this team" depending on my mood. When I feel like training what goes in my head is more like :

  • Why did I die ?
  • Was I badly positionned ? If yes, where should I have been ? Where could I have been ?
  • Did I missplay ? If yes, I need to train X mecanics, gonna go practice tool after that
  • Was It worth it ? If yes : Could this have been even more worth it ? If no : How do I prevent this from happening again ever ?

You see ? I'm questionning every single part of my gameplay, after the game, while trainning, weither I won or lost (Doesnt matter at all when you train actually), I would jump into the replay, analyse my game, look at my successfull allies/opponents to see what they are doing better than me and what I can learn from them.

Then I'd ask myself these questions :

  • Ok where am I on the map ? Could I be in a better place ? Why did I go there ?
  • I've got less gold than X did I miss too much farm ? Why ?
  • I forgot to ward at 3'15 and wasted my flash,* note this mistake so I dont do it ever again *
  • My opponent pokes me way too much and I fail to answer correctly, could I have just counted his spells cd to exploit weak timings ? * learns opponents spells cd *
  • God he already got his ignite ? omg * I should have know it since it's on me he used it last time *

Continuous improvement is what separates casuals from competitive players. It's not a matter of hours spent in front of a computer, it's a matter of mindset.

VexingRaven3 votes

{quoted}

Except you don't.

If you're looking for temporary appeal, go ahead.

TIL Dota has "Temporary appeal".

Bârd7 votes

Dota doesn't balance around casuals. If a low level player says they can't beat something, Icefrog says "The counter is in there, now find it and git gud", while the community at large laughs at them.

The highest win rates in Dota tend to be one of three categories.

  • Simple heroes that low level players can master easily.
  • Pubstomp heroes that low level players can't deal with.
  • Late game heroes that get to shine because nobody at low levels knows how to close out a game.

A hero like Riki or Zeus having a 55-60% win rate is just normal, because Dota players understand that "the hero isn't broken, I'm just bad".

Meanwhile, the lowest win rates in Dota are the opposite

  • Difficult heroes that only a handful of players have mastered.
  • Macro/Team based heroes that lack solo carry potential.
  • Early game heroes that usually become useless at some point because, again, nobody at low levels knows how to close out a game.

A hero like Io rarely ever gets above a 40% win rate, and that's just normal because people understand that "If Io is strong enough to have a 50% win rate amongst low level players, he's going to be complete and utter cancer when used by somebody who actually understands him".

The specific standings shift around with updates (ie Tiny used to be a relatively high win rate until his rework) but things are generally like this.

Leetri3 votes

On the flipside I doubt 90% of the player base wants Master Yi to have a 70% win rate in their rank because he's balanced to be good in Diamond. The boards flip their collective lid when a remotely popular champion has above 50% win rate, in Dota 2 you got Spectre with above 60% win rate and 20% pick rate. People would start making posts demanding a hotfix within half a day if that happened in League.

murderess1 votes

WHAT THE HECK?! I have never dealt with Dota but the winrates seem to be absolutely broken - where does the meme come about Dota being 'perfectly balanced'? It seems that the League community is just crazy in comparison to Dota..

Bârd4 votes

Dota is well balanced, but they almost never make changes targeted for low ranks.

Valve realizes that low MMR Dota players have no clue what they're doing, and that they aren't even playing the game to its full potential or utilizing any of the countermeasures they have at their disposal, so they tell their low level players to get good at the game, learn to counter things, and stop crying.

Bring up "the overall win rate on Dotabuff" will get you laughed at, because win rate is not a valid indicator of strength when the majority of the playerbase is trash.

For example, Riki has a 58% win rate and Wraith King has a 57% win rate. Neither of those heroes are considered particularly strong at high levels, because both of them are very easy to counter.

Meanwhile, Gyrocopter has a 42% win rate and Earth Spirit has a 43% win rate. Those two are some of the most impactful heroes in the entire competitive scene, with competent players/teams absolutely wrecking shop with them.

GripaAviara1 votes

You guys realise is about Dota not Dota 2

Sire Hippington1 votes

which is esentially the same. The release of dota 2 was basically a direct copy of dota 1 in terms of gameplay. and the leading developers are the same(esepcially icefrog) It srtarted directly where dota 1 ended and kept the design philosophy. Sure, some stuff did change over the years, but extreme winrates from below 40% to over 60% existed in dota 1 aswell, simply because those heros were not balanced around the broad masses...

murderess2 votes

{quoted}

Except you do. The original Dota was balanced around casual players and went on to be a legend. Ofc you have to tune the game for high ELO also and take in consideration what a champion does in highly skilled and high reflex hands.

League has been balanced around high elo players and went on to be a bigger legend. What kind of argument is that even?

Sire Hippington1 votes

DotA and 'balanced around casual'...like..wtf...just no...i mean...seriously...i have no words We are talking about the game with shit like meepo or Invoker sitting permanently below 40% winrate but still beeing used in competetive, we are talking about things like spectre or zeus sitting on ~20%pick and ~60% winrate and no one gives a fuck as they are not a big deal in high elo. DotAs entier balance philosophie on that matter is "git gud"...how on earth can anyone ever call dota 'balanced for casual', it's amongst the least casual friendly games ever...

GripaAviara1 votes

Exactly, neither meep or invoker have huge win rates in low elo. And anyway I'm talking about DoTA not DoTA 2

The Bad Touch1 votes

{quoted}

There is a very strong reason as to why the "weak in high elo" argument exists.

For ANY competitive game EVER, you don't balance around the average players. You balance around the better ones. Better players exploit the game better and more often. Better players make the most out of the tools they're given. Better players define the meta. Better players are more dependent on an actually balanced game in order to enjoy the game, whereas lesser players are more casual and don't even realize when something might be awry balance-wise until it's made readily apparent (they won't think something like Janna's OP as quick as they think a carry champ like Yasuo is OP). Thus, better players are a better standard to balance the game around. No competitive game worth its salt would ever make a majority of its balance decisions around lesser players. Like...IMAGINE how absolutely bonkers Ryze would be if we had to wait for him to be "pretty good" in low elo before dealing with him? He'd be absolutely insane.

Now, to answer about champion design and how it correlates into this discussion, Riot's been steadily trying to go through the list of champs like Yi to make them healthier game play experiences so there's less discrepancy between their low, high, and pro elo power levels. In other words, Riot probably agrees with you and is hoping to deal with Yi one day. However, that's "one day", not "today".

Then why not simply put out a separate pro scene/challenger balance patches for the .1%?

chipndip12 votes

Cause that's a stupid idea. Who'd care about pro games anymore?

Fízz v214 votes

I think the game should be balanced around high elo because.. lets look at 2 examples:

Say you main Camille, GP, Taliyah, or Azir back when he was meta. Your champ isnt doing very well in your elo, but there is something you can do about that. You can just get better at your champ, then suddenly they are god tier.

Now lets say you main Fizz, your champ is fine up until ~high diamond-master +. But once you get better and try to get into those elos.. you realize that your champ isnt good enough, and Riot cant/wont buff him because lower elo players will complain. You cant do anything about it.

Thats the difference, if the game/a champ is balanced around very high elo, people have something to play and get good for. But if a champ is balanced around low elo, high elo players of that champ cant do anything to make their champ viable, except smurfing I guess.

I mean look at Westdoor, wasnt he literally known for his Fizz, back when Fizz was actually playable in high elo/competitive? Pretty sure he is a jungle player now lol.

GripaAviara1 votes

Your examples actually contradict each other.

f the game/a champ is balanced around very high elo, people have something to play and get good for

But that means getting good at Fizz is unrewarding by your example. So you're basically segregating champions

Exact if they were to be balanced for 90% of the players and tunned for high ELO it would mean no segregation and higher and more varied game for everybody.

The reason why Azir is not decent low ELO is because champs like Fizz outscale him mid game way too fast by punishing bad plays by teamates. If that would be fixed, it would mean mid ELO Azir players can start playing him without Azir getting any direct buffs. And this in turn will change nothing for high ELO were Fizz is not played that much. On top of that if Fizz is actually balanced (even with kit changes) not be feast of famine we might see him also be played a lot more in high ELO. I see just win here

Fízz v28 votes

I dont really see how they contradict each other tbh. A low elo Azir main can get good at Azir and make him viable that way. A low elo Fizz main makes his champ unviable by getting into higher elo.

So.. basically what you want to happen is: Fizz gets nerfed and becomes even weaker in high elo because he isnt playable there in many matchups anyway?

GripaAviara2 votes

Why do people always assume balancing = nerfs

ModKnightsKemplar9 votes

I see a lot of the responses claiming that they don't want to see champs gutted for high elo. I don't think the OP is suggesting that.

The game survives because of sheer volume. Low elo players spend money on League, and retaining them is important to the future of the game. High elo players don't have a game without everyone spending some money. So, it behooves Riot to care about low elo.

I don't think Riot has often nerfed champions into the ground simply because they were too good in low elo (I'm sure there are a few cases). But it would be much better for them in the long run to balance around everyone. There are plenty of champions that don't have a huge difference in high and low elos; Riot's goal should be designing such that this is the case. It will never be perfect, but it already is one of their goals, and that's a good thing. Lots of players is a huge part of what gives League staying power, and I think it's smart to design around that.

GripaAviara3 votes

Exactly, you worded it perfectly :D

Malza4 votes

There are an incredible amount of cases where Riot nerfs a champion for being too good in low elo OR after the pick has already fallen out of flavor in high elo / pro play.

Champs nerfed for low elo:

  • Any garen nerf
  • Any master yi nerf
  • Most prerework akali nerfs
  • Many tryndamere nerfs
  • Recent wukong nerfs
  • Most darius nerfs
  • Most volibear nerfs
  • Some fizz nerfs
  • Some yasuo nerfs
  • Singed season 7 hotfix (before he saw any success in masters+, post mini rework)

Champs nerfed after they already stopped being picked in pro play + Nerf for low elo

  • Darius season 5 nerf (juggernaut patch, darius went from near 100% pick/ban at the start of worlds to 0% pick/ban before nerfs.)
  • Singed season 8 nerf (pick/ban went from 40% to 15% and dropping due to item changes pre nerfs, instantly went to 0% with very minor nerfs which had nearly no impact on him)

I'm probably missing a lot of champs on this, since those are just what I remember off the top of my head.

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

I maintain that out of 137 champs, that's not very many.

But even if it were, it doesn't deal with the underlying argument. Riot can't support this game with a playerbase of only the top 1.8% of accounts (that's the percentage of NA accounts, not players, in diamond, doesn't change much for KR at 2.1%, didn't check other regions). They have to consider the whole playerbase or they will tank their game.

I think they do already skew balance for gold-plat elo, but catering to the diamond crowd specifically would be a questionable decision from a financial standpoint. No matter how much you don't like it, I don't see any way out of that bind for them.

DeathBurst2 votes

Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, Riot said they skew balance for Plat2-Plat1, not Gold-Plat. So, to be clear, in percentile, they skew balance for the top 4-5%, not the top 10-12% (Gold-Plat), but not the top 1% either (Diamond4 and above).

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

I think your percentages are off, but otherwise that's right. I'm currently plat 5 and only top 7%. I think near the end of the season, at least, plat is more like 10%.

But even still, yeah, I think skewing balance a little in that direction is ultimately good. But they still need to deal with outliers in low elo; I wouldn't wish Yasuo on new players in his current state. In bronze, I expect he's worth a ban every game, no matter what, simply because you can't trust your teammates to play against him, regardless of what you can do against him.

And that's ultimately the problem that I'm trying to get at. If the game is compromised at low elo, revenue is compromised. If revenue is compromised, the whole game could sink. That's what a lot of high elo players fail to consider.

DeathBurst2 votes

I think your percentages are off, but otherwise that's right. I'm currently plat 5 and only top 7%. I think near the end of the season, at least, plat is more like 10%.

Huh, yeah, that's what I said? Plat5 is around 10%, so the Gold/Plat limit is around 10-12%. Diamond4 is ~1%, Diamond5 is ~2%, and Plat1-2 is again roughly twice as many people, so around 4-5%.

And that's ultimately the problem that I'm trying to get at. If the game is compromised at low elo, revenue is compromised. If revenue is compromised, the whole game could sink. That's what a lot of high elo players fail to consider.

This is true, but it's an argument that will annoy many people. I prefer to avoid talking about revenue, and simply mention fun, or sustaining the player base with fresh blood.

But taking a step back, I don't think we disagree. I just wanted to point out the slight mistake in "they skew the balance for gold-plat" (no, they skew the balance for high-plat), but I agree with the general idea.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

That's fair.

I think the main difference in our approach to the topic is that I don't expect high elo players to care if low elo players are having fun. They just say "git gud" and move on, completely ignoring the fact that if they all got good, then they would all still be bronze, because good is relative.

At some point, the finances are the underpinning of the operation. It's the unfortunate reality that Riot has to deal with. They don't like talking about it any more than we do (so they don't).

AirKingNeo7 votes

The big picture is what you aren't looking at.

The game is a competitive game. It should be balanced around the competitive level. The competitive level is high ladder. If a character is weak in high ladder, then they're weak at a competitive level, which means they aren't good.

If low ladder are getting cheesed, they should just get better at the game. Clearly, the players who are a higher rank (factually better) than them, aren't losing to bad picks. That means the low ladder players clearly have room they need to improve in.

What about casuals? That's actually a fair point. What if you're a casual who just wants to have fun. The answer is surprisingly simple. Don't talk about balance because you don't have a competitive mindset. For casuals, one day a shit champion like Yi beats you and another day you lose to Kai'Sa. That's how casual play tends to go.

And if you're a competitive casual? Then you realize Yi is a shit champion by the stats and you improve at the game. You aren't aiming for Diamond+, but you certainly wanna be decently good.

It's kinda similar to Yu-gi-oh with casuals complaining. They don't understand how competitive play goes to actually know what's broken and what not. A competitive casual at leats pays attention to competitive at some point and would know the top decks.

GripaAviara3 votes

If low ladder are getting cheesed, they should just get better at the game.

This is one of the biggest fallacies in LoL. You can't expect a whole bracket to get better, the league distribution percents haven't changed for ages. There are champions that punish low ELO teams and you as a player have no control about your teammates. I have diamond smurf friend that duo-ed and we both won our lanes and guess what because of one explosive champion like that and 2 feeding teammates we couldn't do anything. And I get it, in a highly competitive 5v5 premade teams this should be normal, but we are talking about 5v5 randomly selected mid tier ELO players. And this is incredibly frustrating to deal with hyperscaling champions like those because it all boils down to how bad your teammates are and not on how good you or other teammates actually are

AirKingNeo4 votes

You can't expect a whole bracket to get better, the league distribution percents haven't changed for ages.

Then they shouldn't complain about balance because they refuse to improve at the game.

SomeOneButNoOne3 votes

I'm going to give you a simple example of why they can't balance for lower elos.

Now, release Azir, one of the most broken champions that has ever seen league's competitive scene, was sitting at a 46-47% winrate in high elo's on release.

So, in lower elo's I'll make an estimated guess, that due to his complexity, his winrate was around 44-45%, if not less. Now, in higher elo's, in 2-3 patches, his winrate skyrocketed, while in lower elo's his winrate remained approximately the same. Now, imagine if Azir got a bunch of buffs, to make him "low-elo playable". He was a complete competitive monster, in high elo he was pick or ban, because if you were matched against a good Azir, you had no counterplay. Even Assassins couldn't shut him down if played properly.

If the balancing was done around lower elo, the entire high elo would end up being demolished by completely imbalanced champions. Ryze, Azir, Cassiopeia, Ivern, Syndra, Zoe... Vladimir... GP & Riven... Lets not even discuss how overpowered Lee Sin would have to be to hover on 50% w/r in lower elos. [zombie-nunu-bummed]

GripaAviara1 votes

You are completely right, but you are talking about a very different thing.

One thing is to overtune a mediocre low ELO champion that will then ofc wreak havoc in skilled hands, and another is to balance a champion that wreaks havoc in low ELO and does little in high ELO.

I think the balance team should take in consideration both ELOs

chipndip12 votes

But they already do, hence Garen and Yorick nerfs of all things.

DeathBurst3 votes

There is a fundamental problem in balance.

A balanced game MUST be balanced for the top players. Ideally, it SHOULD be balanced for everyone, but it absolutely, totally must be balanced for top players in particular.

See, if the game is NOT balanced for top players, and say, champion A is OP at high skill level, well, there is no point in playing the game anymore, it's not whoever is better wins, it's just who gets champion A. And since everyone is playing very close to perfectly, there isn't any possible solution, there isn't anything else to do.

So the game MUST be balanced for top players, and that's why the "high MMR" argument exist.

Now, where a lot of people get it wrong is when they insist that the game SHOULD be balanced ONLY for top players. THIS is bullshit, and should be strongly refuted. The game SHOULD be balanced for everyone, it's just fucking hard to do, and it MUST be balanced for top players, but this is not a choice, this is a constraint of the system.

To be fair, Riot does try hard to balance a bit for everyone, and they do rework what you call "flawed designs", but it just takes time. There are a lot of champs, and removing flaws is not as simple to do as a number nerf.

Cptn Han SoloQ2 votes

They have to balance around higher elo. If they balance around low elo, high elo games will be completly destroyed by high skillcapped champions that got pushed to a 50% winrate in elos were people are just to bad to pilot them, and then have over 80% winrate in high elo because once u can use the champion right it is suddenly unstoppable. Ofc this can exist the other way around, were some champions feel unplayable in low elo because u need to be good with them to actually get rewarded, what helps there is either getting good at the game or realising ur lack in skill and playing something else. [ofc this is all said in the perspective that u play to win, otherwise u really do not even think about balance especially in low elo where no game is decided based on a pick but by which player fcks up the least][slayer-jinx-wink]

GripaAviara3 votes

If they balance around low elo, high elo games will be completly destroyed by high skillcapped champions

You are right, but the reverse is also true

If they balance around high elo, low elo games will be completly destroyed by high-risk high reward champions

Herein lies the problem. They need to take a look at both ELO brackets and balance accordingly for both, so champions like Yi, Fizz should not be highly effective pubstompers

Trust me, for new players it's extremely frustrating to play vs a Fizz for example

IainG102 votes

Also worth bearing in mind, low ELO players are likely to have a smaller champion pool than high ELO; saying things like "oh, Fizz /Zed /most assassins get countered hard by Kayle " is all well and good, but really doesn't apply if the poor sod doesn't have her, because they went for artillery mages first (because they enjoy them). That new player, without some of the hard counters yet unlocked, is just going to repeatedly get fucked over until they unlock them; how is that either fun or fair? Are the heartless so-and-so's defending their favourite assassin in Diamond gonna chip in and gift it? I'm willing to bet 'no'.

Galiö2 votes

I beg to differ that 'but in higher elo is a good argument' even with most of the player base being in gold and below.

It's like playing a competative cardgame.

Imagine in said cardgame there is an effect that overwhelms 'units' with an effect.

In lower elo everyone just throws a bunch of strong units in their deck without any regard for a silencing card to end unit effects.

Lower elo players will complain that said unit is stomping all their units and is unfun/unhealthy due to lack of counter play.

Higher elo players all have a silence in their deck so they very rarely use that 'dominating unit'lower elo players are complaining about without a specific strategy or preparation.

You cant just destroy a card because no one wants to learn how to build a deck.

Lauchmelder2 votes

{quoted}

I beg to differ that 'but in higher elo is a good argument' even with most of the player base being in gold and below.

It's like playing a competative cardgame.

Imagine in said cardgame there is an effect that overwhelms 'units' with an effect.

In lower elo everyone just throws a bunch of strong units in their deck without any regard for a silencing card to end unit effects.

Lower elo players will complain that said unit is stomping all their units and is unfun/unhealthy due to lack of counter play.

Higher elo players all have a silence in their deck so they very rarely use that 'dominating unit'lower elo players are complaining about without a specific strategy or preparation.

You cant just destroy a card because no one wants to learn how to build a deck.

I disagree due to a technicality:

Balancing around high elo is the way to go BUT the "but in higher elo" argument is toxic in itself. It shuts down discussions instead of talking about a problem a player has or sees.

Riot should be balancing around high elo by default while players should never ever take high elo/low elo into consideration while creating their posts. The only thing it does is create a toxic basis for a discussion or shuts it down completely. The "but in high elo" argument should be ignored completely, instead people should explain what the problems counterplay is.

If a low elo player complains about Master Yi being broken and how he needs nerfs then the answer to that post shouldn't be "He doesn't need nerfs, he's bad in high elo" but instead should be an explanation on how to avoid feeding him or how to counter him during teamfights.

It's different for people complaining about certain champions stripping their fun out of the game (Yasuo is a big contender in that category for example), they don't want tips on how to play against those champions. They just want to rant and MAYBE make Riot see how much they don't like playing against that champion.

Galiö2 votes

Yasuo is science (auto loss).

Anyway. My point still stays the same as the champ isnt a problem people just arent bothering to learn the game.

If you nerf master yi he would never see high elo play because he was be even more garbage than he is now (I get tilted when I see one on my team and assume we are going to lose tbh, I don't say anything in game though)

But he would then just be a giant minion in lower elo cause hed be more useless than he is now.

There is little to no seiging or pushing leads in low elo and the games generally go 10 minutes longer than higher elo and that's why Yi seems good (even though he is VERY bad). People are refusing to end and do stupid stuff like full clearing a jungle 17 minutes into a game, recalling after shoving 2-3 waves, sending 2 or 3 players to stop someone from destroying a t1 turret while there was a group push, letting enemies rubber band back into the game etc....

Yi does ok in bad play like that. It's not even that he is good then either, its justb gross negligence on how to play around him.

Speeedy2 votes

So with the current ranked system in NA low elo is a fiesta. You need to change the way the ranked programs work to give players more fair games. The problem is this you have 27 ranks between bronze 5 and challenger/masters (25 ranks to D1). In 10 ranks, bronze 5 to silver 1, you have 70% of the ranked player base. Then you have 30% for 17 ranks. Assuming you did even distribution for the ranks as the player base sits Bronze 5 to Silver 1 = 7% of players, then from gold 1 to challenger is 1.7% of players. The odds of getting someone who is having a bad game or just unskilled for the division is much higher in low elo. A more even distribution of players among the ranks needs to occur to plat 1. This gives low elo players less of a chance of a landslide game with more balanced teams.

Attticus Finch2 votes

There is no sport in history that is balanced around the unskilled majority.

Paroe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=3LfNLdMW,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2018-10-02T04:49:26.896+0000)

There is no sport in history that is balanced around the unskilled majority.

Youre right. Every sport in history has a set of rules which govern the entire game from top to bottom skill wise. E-sports dont have that, though. And theres a pretty tangible form of elitism that comes from upper ranks and lower ranks in E-sports which doesnt exist in real sports.

Like... If a college football player was at the little league game and shat on some poor kids dreams to make it, that player would not be a player very long. Wrestling is about the only sport where malicious shit talk like we get in E-sports is allowed, and only because it makes for good watching in a highly dramatized production.

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

Youre right. Every sport in history has a set of rules which govern the entire game from top to bottom skill wise. E-sports dont have that, though. And theres a pretty tangible form of elitism that comes from upper ranks and lower ranks in E-sports which doesnt exist in real sports.

Excuse me, but you got real sports and esports confused. It's esports that have a set of rules which govern the entire game from top to bottom skill wise, and real sports that allow flexibility. If there was no junior soccer league with smaller fields, smaller goals, no goalkeeper, shorter halves, and three players per team when I was a kid, I would've spent about as much time playing soccer as everyone but Voyboy spent playing Olaf between seasons 4 and 6 or so.

Automated Riven1 votes

No. Balance should be around optimal levels of play. If you feel like, for example, yi is overpowered. You can just get better at the game and your frustrations go away.

And before you act like I am a high elo player. I was silver 1 last year.

Eleshakai2 votes

Pure trickle down balance has been proven to not work.(the theory that if you balance for the highest level only, it'll even out in the end) Starcraft 2 tried it for a while, I believe LoL tried it as well for a while, although I don't know if it was their intent.

If you want your game to be successful, it needs to be fun at all levels of play. Otherwise you simply will not have the players to support a game long-term. If a particular character is extremely frustrating to play against at low skill levels, but balanced at high skill levels, you have a few options:

  1. You can just tell players to 'get good and the problem will go away'.
  2. You can make adjustments to the character.
  3. You can implement systemic changes to impact the cause of the frustration.

There are consequences to each of them, of course. If you choose route 1, you just straight up lose players. There are so many games out there, that if you send that message, many players will just go find a different one to play. System changes are obviously generally fairly expensive and often have unforeseen consequences. Character adjustments can alter the balance for the places where the character is balanced.

However, you can make minor tweaks to adjust the specific pain-points of players at lower tiers of skill without significantly altering the 'top end'. This is difficult to do, but is the ideal solution.

When taking feedback, of course you have to take lower skilled players' feedback with a grain of salt. But their feedback is still important as they deserve to have a fun experience as well.

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