Moving Brand from Support to the Midlane.

Gall··9 votes·13,348 views

Hello gameplay +! I'm a Brand support main that hovers between DIV-DII, and I absolutely love to play Brand! Many people are frustrated playing against him though and for good reason. The most common argument is that people would rather see a champion designed for mid lane with mid lane-like damage to remain in that role, and I personally wouldn't mind going Brand mid at all. However, it's simply not as satisfying, nor as good. Here are the reasons why I believe Brand currently doesn't sit well in mid as oppose to support ~

  1. Has to be too close to harass, and it's very difficult to land all three spells twice in a row just to evenly trade a lane opponent who just has to dodge one of those six spells to win a trade. If I go mid and don't miss a single spell, then yeah I'll win the lane. But if I'm off just a little then I'll probably lose, whereas my opponent just has to land maybe one skillshot to get the same results.
  2. Very gankable but not with the range that xerath, velk, and lux has to play safe.
  3. You either use spells on minions to go even in lane dominance or you harass, whereas someone like TF just has to Q the wave, maybe throw a red card. Brands are always out cs'd mid (BRAND HAS THE SECOND LOWEST CS NUMBERS OF ALL MIDS, despite not being a roam/ assassin champion like LB who has the actual lowest) or Brand has to have the wave pushing towards them (unless W+E is used on the wave a ton, which causes mana problems and Brand is one of the most gankable mages so having those spells on cooldown is not viable).
  4. Brand's best rune is DH because of how easy it is to proc on him. In mid you'll proc it half as much (or worse depending on match up) whereas in bot a Brand will get the most DH stacks of anyone in the game.
  5. AP doesn't scale well on Brand, putting a lot of his power into his passive which doesn't need massive item spikes to do damage, and is amplified a ton with the easy to buy magic pen items and rylia's + liandry's. Going mid for extra farm to get those extra cs numbers (43/44 for all mid champions in terms of cs though) isn't worth the extra menial ap item.
  6. The only reason Brand has a 50% WR mid is because of his amazing teamfight potential. He probably has the best damage potential of any champ for grouped team fights. That being said, his teamfight potential isn't greatly increased by going mid rather than support. In fact, it's probably better to have a mid for the enemy team to focus on so that a Brand can actually get his combos off in a teamfight, or if he's focused hard, then the mid won't be focused then can do the massive damage instead.

My proposed changes includes nerfs to his damage, buffs to his CS and better AP scaling:

  1. Brand's passive does extra damage against minions to assist in CS.
  2. His autoattack burns minions (only minions) for a small increased amount of damage as well.
  3. His base damages are all decreased at every level but has much better AP scaling (making him weaker at every minute of the game until around 2 magic items, in which he becomes stronger than previously). <- this alone would lower support Brand's winrate by a considerable amount, but alone would trash all of Brand's early game making him the weakest around, so the other proposed changes are needed to assist in lane harass/ CS.
  4. He has slightly longer range on E.
  5. Similar to Ryze, it would be great to give Brand some mobility like an MS boost or shield on landing an ability, or even just a small base MS increase. Brand is the only champ that requires two spells to land a small stun to avoid ganks, but if either of those abilities are ever used to help with CS then you're screwed. So it's either always have wards up everywhere, try to go even in CS, or lose CS but be prepared for a gank. I would love to have a simple gold card to throw out or a long range single spell stun (Xerath) to help against ganks, but his mechanics are so much different than the average mid laner for survival.
  6. Ignoring only #4 but keeping the only 3, perhaps reworking his kit interaction to make him more viable to play midlane would be an option. This is a more difficult change though and not just a small number push-around.

Well, that's all from me! Thanks for the reading my short thoughts on Brand :).

27 Comments

Poske5 votes

Syndra outclasses brand in 10 different aspects

The only place where Brand can parry Syndra is in aoe damage

Gilgayu4 votes

The lack of mobility is really the reason why brand has been, and must be, staying bot lane.

He has frustrating damage for how easy it is to land them in a 2v2 matchup (because again, many supports lack mobility). I certainly agree that lowering the base damage and increasing the scaling is a great way to fix champions, and it is certainly a strategy used all the time.


When you play him mid lane, his only "true" power spikes are his first back (item 1026) and mid game (item 3151 anditem 3116). Brand doesn't have a level 6 power spike if he's mid because, well, it's 1v1... This is very unusual for mid laners, as most of them have insane level 6 power spikes (fizz, zed, yasuo, orianna, akali, etc.). This is, however, a bit more usual for supports/adcs. I think a GU for his ultimate would help his laning in mid, but his current ult is what really making him almost "op" in mid--late game team fights.


For your proposed changes #5, I have some counter points.

True Brand requires at least 2 spells to land a stun, but one of the spell is a point and click, and the damage following up the stun is really no joke if you land your e q w. Brand is more designed to be a team fight beast rather than Ryze, who is more like a hyper carry.

It would be cool if Brand can have some sort of ms boost though, maybe +15/40/65 ms at level 1/7/13 whenever he get all three stack on a target (so the explosion) ?


Ideas on reworking his ultimate:

  1. Make it do something other than "briefly slow" when the target is blazed. I mean, come on, this is supposed to be an ultimate.... It can be increased damage, or even make the "briefly slow" into "greatly slow"
  2. Make his ult enhance one of his abilities (so heimerdinger/karma style). This would make his ult more useful for solo lane since it's damage > number of targets
  3. Move his passive to his ult's passive, and give him a new one (possibly having to do with minions, as OP suggested). This would kind of force a power spike for his level 6, but I'm not sure if it would make his early game (pre-6) useless.
  4. Let his ult make him have 50% damage reduction and decrease his other abilities' cd by 40% (can stack with cdr). This is kind of like Ryze's old ultimate, where using it make him enter basically urf-mode and just destroy his enemies. Their devastation, however, can be avoided by simply disengage when Brand pops his ult.

Nice post btw, if you didn't mention it I wouldn't have realized the problems with Brand mid lane despite being a mid main

Gall1 votes

{quoted}

The lack of mobility is really the reason why brand has been, and must be, staying bot lane.

He has frustrating damage for how easy it is to land them in a 2v2 matchup (because again, many supports lack mobility). I certainly agree that lowering the base damage and increasing the scaling is a great way to fix champions, and it is certainly a strategy used all the time.


When you play him mid lane, his only "true" power spikes are his first back (item 1026) and mid game (item 3151 anditem 3116). Brand doesn't have a level 6 power spike if he's mid because, well, it's 1v1... This is very unusual for mid laners, as most of them have insane level 6 power spikes (fizz, zed, yasuo, orianna, akali, etc.). This is, however, a bit more usual for supports/adcs. I think a GU for his ultimate would help his laning in mid, but his current ult is what really making him almost "op" in mid--late game team fights.


For your proposed changes #5, I have some counter points.

True Brand requires at least 2 spells to land a stun, but one of the spell is a point and click, and the damage following up the stun is really no joke if you land your e q w. Brand is more designed to be a team fight beast rather than Ryze, who is more like a hyper carry.

It would be cool if Brand can have some sort of ms boost though, maybe +15/40/65 ms at level 1/7/13 whenever he get all three stack on a target (so the explosion) ?


Ideas on reworking his ultimate:

  1. Make it do something other than "briefly slow" when the target is blazed. I mean, come on, this is supposed to be an ultimate.... It can be increased damage, or even make the "briefly slow" into "greatly slow"
  2. Make his ult enhance one of his abilities (so heimerdinger/karma style). This would make his ult more useful for solo lane since it's damage > number of targets
  3. Move his passive to his ult's passive, and give him a new one (possibly having to do with minions, as OP suggested). This would kind of force a power spike for his level 6, but I'm not sure if it would make his early game (pre-6) useless.
  4. Let his ult make him have 50% damage reduction and decrease his other abilities' cd by 40% (can stack with cdr). This is kind of like Ryze's old ultimate, where using it make him enter basically urf-mode and just destroy his enemies. Their devastation, however, can be avoided by simply disengage when Brand pops his ult.

Nice post btw, if you didn't mention it I wouldn't have realized the problems with Brand mid lane despite being a mid main

All excellent suggestions as well!

Elf04911 votes

I feel like the easiest fix would just be to bump up the Ult's damage. Leave it unchanged when it bounces between enemy champs, but add "If there are no other champions to bounce to, the fireball stays on the last hit champion, dealing X burn damage per second," or something along those lines.

Gilgayu1 votes

It is true that that can be a solution, but what I meant when I said his ult isn't the greatest for 1v1 is because half of its damage will be wasted.

Personally, I think the lack of mobility (or survivability, he needs one of the two) is the real reason he must stay bot. I've tried him mid before, and tbh, he sucks. He can't land a single w unless the enemy is slowed due to how many dashes mid-laners have these days. He can only gain kill pressure if his enemy jungle decides to gank, yes, being ganked will make him stronger.

He is just one of the mages that are better at bigger scales of fighting (2v2 instead of 1v1).

Elf04911 votes

I...know? That's why the easiest way to fix it is to increase its damage if it can't bounce to other champs?

And every new/reworked champion have crazy mobility is its own issue, but yes, it makes a lot of older, skillshot reliant champs feel terrible.

Attticus Finch3 votes

One of the biggest issues, that was left out, is that Brand also only has a single base ability that can go through the minion wave (his W). That means that his only reliable harass is also his only form of wave clear. With a 8 second CD and 100 mana cost at rank 5 that makes it pretty much impossible to keep up any lane pressure. He can't spam it without going oom and he's extremely vulnerable to all-ins or bad trades when it's on CD.

The only way to make Brand viable mid would be to actually change the way his kit functions. As he's currently designed there are no number tweaks that could make him a viable pick outside of bot lane.

TakaDama3 votes

Why not add a wildfire passive to E - Conflagrate that works similar to Malzahar's E - Malefic Visions.

Something like "If a minion or champion dies while ablaze, nearby minions and champions are set ablaze."

That, along with adjusting base damage and scaling; should allow Brand back in Mid Lane.

(Note: I infrequently play Brand, but I'm a fan of other DoT champions like Malzahar and Singed, and I know Malz does well thanks in part to wave control)

Dotrix1 votes

I like this idea!

Shahamut3 votes

Moving Brand to mid lane is easy. You nerf his base damage, and increase his scaling, making him more item/gold dependent in order to do his job. Here is something I think needs considering though if you want to make changes:

Brand, as you have stated, has HUGE teamfight potential... in the form of damage. EVERYTHING in Brand's kit does damage... his passive doubley so since it has a burn effect and a potential EXPLOSION! if you land 3 abilities on someone.

Giving someone like brand more saftey would simply just not be fair without substantial changes to his kit. Same thing with cc. TF gold card is VERY telegraphed. Xerath stun is slow moving and easy to see/dodge. Brand gets stun after one of his other abilities hits, but getting stunned by brand is WAY worse than getting stunned by TF or Xerath (assuming everyone is equal in gold) His stun means you were already hit by 2 abilities, and the 3rd one is now free. Passive proc away!

Brand doesn't have to be able to harass/fight other ranged mages in mid lane. They would probably be his strongest counter. He doesn't need to be great at roaming either, because all Brand needs to do, and this should be the niche you are picking him into (assuming competitive mindset here), is group up with his team post 6 and lay down the hell fire that wins team fights.

Of course, that doesn't mean all his lane matchups will be bad. Everything changes against other short range mages, and the occassional melee matchup.

Ganks are something everyone has to worry about, especially right now since damage is so high in the game. Even somewhat safe positioning wont matter if Hecarim charges at you with Predator active and knocks you even just a little further away from your tower. If you are any of the myriad of immobile squishies that frequent midlane, you probably gonna die if you didnt see the gank coming.

Personally, I would love to see more changes like this happen though, so that supports can be a more utility focused position again. Now, to clarify, I think people can and should be able to play whoever they want in whatever role they want, but I think for game health, and competitive, I think it makes the game more interesting when its not a giant damage fest. I find a lot of LCS games difficult to watch atm. XD

TomiMan71 votes

Moving Brand to mid lane is easy. You nerf his base damage, and increase his scaling, making him more item/gold dependent in order to do his job.

Did you read the post at all? He listed at least 3 reasons that has nothing to do with AP scaling, that if wont be fixed brand will NEVER BE a good mid laner. Simply boosting ap ratios and lowering bases will do NOTHING to mid lane brand.

Shahamut1 votes

Did you read ANY of my response beyond what you quoted? I addressed a lot of his post.

TomiMan71 votes

Yes and none of them has anything to do with the biggest reasons why his midlane performance is shit. Im talking of experience as someone who plays brand and you talk outta your a*s

Shahamut1 votes

Giving someone like brand more saftey would simply just not be fair without substantial changes to his kit. Same thing with cc. TF gold card is VERY telegraphed. Xerath stun is slow moving and easy to see/dodge. Brand gets stun after one of his other abilities hits, but getting stunned by brand is WAY worse than getting stunned by TF or Xerath (assuming everyone is equal in gold) His stun means you were already hit by 2 abilities, and the 3rd one is now free. Passive proc away!

Brand doesn't have to be able to harass/fight other ranged mages in mid lane. They would probably be his strongest counter. He doesn't need to be great at roaming either, because all Brand needs to do, and this should be the niche you are picking him into (assuming competitive mindset here), is group up with his team post 6 and lay down the hell fire that wins team fights.

If you are referring to Brand's shorter range, lack of sustainable waveclear pre-lost chapter, or his poor roaming/lack of mobility- I addressed all of those things. Thank you for pointing out that you DIDN'T read my response.

I played almost exclusively mid lane last season. I have played both as and against Brand at different points. Not a huge fan of Brand, but he has some VERY clear strengths, and those strengths are why he is not more than just a niche pick in mid. You can still pick him mid. You can play safe and farm, punish roams by shoving waves in, and once you hit 6, GROUP because teamfights are won and lost on good Brand ultimates.

TomiMan71 votes

If you are referring to Brand's shorter range, lack of sustainable waveclear pre-lost chapter, or his poor roaming/lack of mobility- I addressed all of those things.

You didnt address jackshit in your comment. Nothing regarding waveclear, long cds, base stats nothing. You just rumbled on comparing 3 different stuns etc. That will never solve his midlane problems.

but he has some VERY clear strengths,

One very clear strenghts. And thats dmg. Once you get to an mmr where players actually posses a brain, his aoe will be countered with ease.

You can still pick him mid. You can play safe and farm, punish roams by shoving waves in, and once you hit 6, GROUP because teamfights are won and lost on good Brand ultimates.

With this mentality you could play nami, or sona or heck even soraka mid, and win. We are not talkin about how with useless theoretical changes you could play him mid, we are talking about ACTUAL changes that would make him not a nieche but atleast an B to A tier midlaner.

I have played both as and against Brand at different points.

Dude. you have played 2 games on Brand in season 8, and 0 in season 7, compared to my 186 in ranked and close to 400 in normal just in season 8. And you are trying to make it seem you even know how he plays. LOL

ModUlanopo1 votes

Approved

xDelightifyx1 votes

If u take brand Nd just force him. into midlane, by reducing his base stats and dmg he will be perfectly fine. He has a positive winrate, already strong scalings, and is nowhere close to beeing forced to hit all 3 spells. If you only hit 2 your burst is already insane.

The range part u mentioned is only ur favourism for brand speaking, cause that would make him entirely o erpowered leaving even less counterplay for unmobile or unranged champs..

Personally id gut brand support entirely. Id higher all his cooldowns by 2 seconds leaving it the same at level 5. Id reduce his base dmg by 50 on every spell leaving the skaling and level 5 the same. Id also reduce his passive to magic dmg instead of true. But maybe thats only because i think ppl. playing midlaners as supporters do not have any honor, aka i rlly dislake mage/midlaners playing support (mostly cause u ruin the game experience for me entirely, no matter if i win or lose, i wont have any fun).

I dont even understood why riot changed supporter from beeing supportive characters to beeing full dmg dealers. Dealing mor dmg than your adc is capable of is no support at all. Brand for example has not a single spell that does support his adc... But hes having the best winrate anyways...

Gilgayu1 votes

{quoted} I dont even understood why riot changed supporter from beeing supportive characters to beeing full dmg dealers. Dealing mor dmg than your adc is capable of is no support at all. Brand for example has not a single spell that does support his adc... But hes having the best winrate anyways...

Tbh the only reason mages (and I mean mid-lane mages) are playing supports is because of all the enchanters are basically gutted, and for good reason. People are complaining about mages support overbearing, yet they are soooo much better than the enchanter meta. Adcs used to be able to 2v5 with their enchanter and come out with more than 50% hp... That was unhealthy

Right now other supports like tank (alister, thresh, or even leona) and pure cc supports (rakan) are still good, but they aren't as annoying as mages because they rely on the adc to do the damage, while mages can just 100-0 a fed adc in a good combo. I'd say mages support are okay, but they really need to be less powerful than adcs because right now they are really the ones that should be cs'ing for how much damage they do...

xDelightifyx1 votes

Tbh the only reason mages (and I mean mid-lane mages) are playing supports is because of all the enchanters are basically gutted, and for good reason. People are complaining about mages support overbearing, yet they are soooo much better than the enchanter meta. Adcs used to be able to 2v5 with their enchanter and come out with more than 50% hp... That was unhealthy

sure because i, as enchanter, have no right to win games or fights, even if i played my champ perfectly. Enchanter a class of champions in this game aswell as tanks are too, so they should be allowed to. fulfill their role, at least if they play decent. So pls explain me why this two classes (if u play a tank support vs a mid mage its a freelose tbh) arent allowed to have any influence, or to be useful overall? Why is a midlane mage allowed to oneshot me as enchanter at level 4, leaving no counterplay, because i can shield 300 of a 1500 burst. Adc should exaclty do that if i play correctly and the adc does too, why wouldnt he be able to do that during the lategame, its the target of his role. Especially considsring redemption, ardent, mikaels, and maybe ga? A fed assasine can 1 v 5. A fed irelia can 1 v 5. Yet you conplain about enchanters, because there once was a time, where they actually were able to fulfill their role???

Tbh you are rlly biased, if you say that ardent meta was worse, because you forget that enchanters always were oneshots, aka were providing counterplay. Look at Akali, look at A fed Assasine, look at irelia, or look at a velkoz or brand support. What happend to the counterplay? Riot kinda understood that mages are no healthy supports, thats why brand, and a few more, will be nerfed in 9.2. That says a lot. And we can only hope, that they gut all affected mages.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

If u take brand Nd just force him. into midlane, by reducing his base stats and dmg he will be perfectly fine. He has a positive winrate, already strong scalings, and is nowhere close to beeing forced to hit all 3 spells. If you only hit 2 your burst is already insane.

The range part u mentioned is only ur favourism for brand speaking, cause that would make him entirely o erpowered leaving even less counterplay for unmobile or unranged champs..

Personally id gut brand support entirely. Id higher all his cooldowns by 2 seconds leaving it the same at level 5. Id reduce his base dmg by 50 on every spell leaving the skaling and level 5 the same. Id also reduce his passive to magic dmg instead of true. But maybe thats only because i think ppl. playing midlaners as supporters do not have any honor, aka i rlly dislake mage/midlaners playing support (mostly cause u ruin the game experience for me entirely, no matter if i win or lose, i wont have any fun).

I dont even understood why riot changed supporter from beeing supportive characters to beeing full dmg dealers. Dealing mor dmg than your adc is capable of is no support at all. Brand for example has not a single spell that does support his adc... But hes having the best winrate anyways...

His passive isn't True Damage...

It's Magic.

xDelightifyx1 votes

yeah sorry its %max hp dmg. so even more op. Thanks for the tipp. Looking forward for the 9.2 nerfs, i hope u will enjoy them as much as i do. [slayer-jinx-catface]

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

yeah sorry its %max hp dmg. so even more op. Thanks for the tipp. Looking forward for the 9.2 nerfs, i hope u will enjoy them as much as i do. [slayer-jinx-catface]

Oh believe me I will.

I'm an ADC main, I'm sick of seeing Brand and Zyra.

{quoted}

A fed irelia can 1 v 5.

Honestly, Irelia only needs item 3078 item 3077 to 1v5.

xDelightifyx1 votes

Oh believe me I will.

I'm sick of seeing Brand and Zyra.

Then we already are two ppl [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

KicktheDoor1 votes

There's too much power in his passive and not enough in his abilities. Even if miss your abilities or fall behind you can still dish out damage off your passive which is what makes him a strong support. I'm in favor of gutting Brand's passive and giving him better AP ratios so he's not railroaded into support roles and forced to itemize DoT. Being able to use yourself as a conduit for your abilities or increased movement speed off landing spells would do wonders.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

Another possibility is to do something similar to how his W works right now - increase all his mana costs but give a mana refund if they kill a minion or champion. Maybe up the damage on his WRQ to compensate.

So if Brand only pokes and doesn't CS he goes OOM very fast.

Pianoasis1 votes

In this meta I actually think he is a better jungler than anything else.

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