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General discussion of knock-ups VS Stuns

Ariel the Cruel·8/23/2018, 4:11:57 AM·26 votes·65,113 views

There's a general complaint out there that displacements are becoming too prevalent. Many (if not most) are used to move an opponent, and those are justified (Ignoring brittle). But in terms of knock-ups specifically, I tend to agree with the sentiment. Not because of Yasuo synergy or counter-build invalidation (though those are a factor). Displacements in general are the second strongest form of CC (below Stasis), but knock-ups are functionally identical to stuns. It seems that Riot is gradually trying to phase out stuns in favor of displacements. This has been brought up enough times now that I'm sure most are tired of hearing it. All the same, I would like to take advantage of the Nunu rework to again ask for thoughts.

Just looking at Nunu's rework, he has a knock-up on W that I don't understand the justification for. Nunu rolls up a massive snowball then pushes it forwards, knocking up what ever enemies it collides with. I see three ways to evaluate this.

  1. Mechanically - Is there an ability limitation that necessitates absolute compliance? Hooks are a primary example of this since changing the duration one way or another would distort the readability (or at worst, function). Neither W, nor anything in Nunu's kit has such a limitation.
  2. Game play - Is there something in the kit or general play-style that could be broken by non-compliance? Yasuo's Ultimate is an example of this. Since he functions off any appropriate CC, giving him access to the more common (and often longer) stun would drastically increase his ult availability. Janna's Q is another potential example of this. As her entire game plan revolves primarily around peeling and general safety, it makes sense that she be able to mitigate anti-peel options. In Nunu's case, you could make an argument for setting up his ult. However, I would counter with the fact that he has 2 slows and a root out-side his W that are meant to help with exactly that.
  3. Thematically - Is there something in the theme or general perception that justifies absolute compliance? Malphite's ultimate, Unstoppable, is the perfect example of this. The moment he presses R, it's going off and there's nothing you can do about it. Both he and the resulting CC are "unstoppable." Another example would be Vi's ultimate, as breaking the suppression-like extended animation would be incredibly immersion breaking. A third potential example would be Nautilus' Ult, which literally shoots a water geyser up from underneath the victim. If we look at the the mechanics of a giant snowball rolling on the ground, it's not going to lift anybody up. If we make the argument that compliance is justified by being buried, I would point out that the animation is more akin to an explosion (of ice, interestingly) than a collapse. So that doesn't work either. And the animation ends almost immediately, so Vi logic also fails.

Please don't mistake this for an anti-displacement circle-jerk thread. I'm not against the mechanic in general. Stuns and Knock-ups are the only two mechanics with identical use cases (Suppression effects the caster). I just want to understand why Riot's designers choose one form of CC over another nearly identical one when they do (this goes both ways).

Potential Discussion Points (Topic is not limited to these):

  • Pros VS cons of displacement replacing Stuns.
  • What champions (if any) have displacements that are hard to justify?
    • Can we (the community) reasonably justify retaining and/or replacing it?
  • What champions (if any) have stuns that could be justified as a displacement?
    • Pros and cons of the change.
  • Current and desired role of Tenacity in regards to Stuns and Displacements.
  • If Stuns are not sufficiently visually clear, how can we make them so?

General disclaimer / request to posters: If you're only going to claim that Riot hates stuns/tenacity and/or loves Yasuo, don't bother posting (unless you're a red post and this is the actual reason). I want this to be a legitimate discussion that doesn't scare away rioters. (I would even invite mods to remove any offenders.)

tl;dr: Why are knock-ups used instead of stuns when they are (and technically vice-versa)? Used Nunu as an example. What stuns and/or knock-ups that exist in the game should be replaced and why?

133 Comments

ModThe Djinn8/23/2018, 12:03:26 PM16 votes

Stuns and Knock-ups are the only two mechanics with identical use cases

This is not entirely true. It's important to note that the forced movement portion is unaffected by Tenacity and cannot be cleansed. As such, a knock-up is slightly stronger than a stun. In effect, a stationary knock-up is a two-part ability -- one part that says "you can't issue move commands" and one part that says "you are stunned." Tenacity affects the latter, but not the former.

So we see stationary knock-ups on a lot of characters who benefit from keeping enemies in a single position (Alistar, Galio, Ivern, Janna, Jarvan IV, Malphite, Nami, Nautilus, Ornn, Wukong, Zac, Zyra), either because they're peelers or because they have damage that can follow it up especially well.

We also see it for short-duration things, because in many cases it's more appreciable for short-term effects than a stun, because it's easier to recognize. Kayne, Blitzcrank, Rakan, Rek'Sai, Xin Zhao are good examples of champions that gain a lot of clarity (and some cool visual feel) by their knock-ups.

I'd guess Nunu's case is a combination of his desire to keep enemies close as much as possible and the heavy visual graphic of the snowball. Making it knock up enemies means that the impact is a little more apparent to the Nunu players, the victims, and both teams, as otherwise the exploding snowball could graphically dominant the view.

RiotAD Yuumi9/4/2018, 3:15:32 AM14 votes

Why are knock-ups used instead of stuns when they are (and technically vice-versa)?

A good question!!!!

Here's some of the design reasons we use knockups vs. stuns.

  1. Thematic Sometimes a knockup/knockback just feels correct thematically and it would betray player expectations to not make it so. Displacements are the easiest examples here (Lee Sin R) , but also things like Vi ult (where she literally uppercuts you into the air). In these cases using a stun (where the target didn't move) would likely feel WRONG. Imagine hitting someone with a giant water geyser and NOT seeing them move.

  2. Guaranteed Power Knockups give us a strong design tool. They are CC with essentially no "counterplay" as they cannot be reduced or cleansed. If you NEED an effect to "just work" and screw over THAT CHAMP for X seconds NO MATTER WHAT then a knockup is for you. Malphite ult is a great example of this principal. Unstoppable Force is intended to be an incredibly powerful and fight altering ability. The knockup helps it achieve that, even when the enemy is running things like cleanse and QSS.

  3. Satisfaction Sometimes we just want a spell to feel good. Knockups feel better than stuns because the impact is more visceral (you move the target OMG). Things that look flashier often feel better to hit.

  4. Mobility Counters (EDIT:forgot to put this in original post) Because they stop dashes, knockups are a great way to give your champion a counter to an opponent's mobility tools (Volibear Roar).

My personal opinion is that reasons 1 and 2 are GOOD REASONS for using knockups, while reason 3 is fine but DANGEROUS. I call 3 dangerous because in the search of "good feels" we can often forget about the importance of cleanses and tenacity in our game. Doing it every once in a while is fine, but if it becomes a trend where most spells have "knockups for the feels" the whole stun/tenacity/knockup/cleanse system can start to break down. I'd be lying to say that League hasn't experienced a good deal of "knockup" creep over the years.

In regards to stun satisfaction, there are ways to have our cake and eat it too. Knockups that fade into longer stuns are one way (did you know that Nautilus R is reducible by tenacity? The knockup only lasts .5 seconds, the majority of the CC is actually a stun!). Another way is the Thresh and Nami Q approach. Both of those spells are stuns! They just "look" like knockups, but can be reduced and cleansed like normal. The cost of that approach is clarity. They work for Yasuo R but can also be Gangplank W'd? A tad confusing, but probably worth it in the long run to get the desired counterplay.

Cyber HeroXL8/23/2018, 2:07:37 PM10 votes

Knockups are fine as long as they are kept 1 second or shorter(pref shorter). IMO, A prime example of a healthy long duration "knock up" is Sion. Decimating smash deals a 0.5-1 knockup followed by a 1.25-2.25 stun, the end result is a stun enhanced by a minimum duration and style points instead of an uncleansible 3 second monstrosity. The ratio of knockVSstun provides another lever for balance team to fiddle with instead of just total duration. If biggest snowball ever becomes an issue, i say we add this property to it.

DragonShea8/23/2018, 12:56:44 PM5 votes

Displacements should be affected by tenacity and it's just riot that have been too lazy to fix that issue. Only attacks that grab you should be excluded.

5050BS9/4/2018, 4:49:20 AM3 votes

Displacements are 100% more powerful then stuns. Riot does not put enough power cost for an ability to have a displacement. There is no diminishing returns or immunities to displacements and as more and more champs get them you get fights where its like being vs 5 Blitzcranks.

Displacements are also being added to abilities that have very short CD. Even Root spell have longer CD then a lot of kcockups.

It feels Thematic that some champs are just much better then others because of this and they are right. A Champ with a knockup is a lot better then a champ with a stun who is much better then a champ with a root (unless the root is 3s)

Knockups are better then stuns.

They are more like suppression because you cant use anything.

Displacements should not stop a champ from acting. Forcibly moving you to where you dont want to go should be the payoff.

IMO Riot is going in the wrong way with all the displacements. When you are in a fight and are smashing your keyboard and die because your champ did nothing feels VERY BAD and makes me want to look for other games.

Linna Excel8/23/2018, 1:19:18 PM3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=2MKjsKEj,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-23T04:11:57.211+0000)

What stuns and/or knock-ups that exist in the game should be replaced and why?

Poppy's ult. Generally you don't want to fully charge it, but when you do it's pretty annoying to have used on you. If you don't charge it up, it's overcosted in terms of mana and CD for what it does. Since she has displacement with potential stun in her E, and she can prevent movement with her W, I think she's got enough tools for keeping someone where they don't want to be.

What I'd like to see is for Poppy to jump up in the air and slam the hammer down, stunning and damaging everyone in the AoE.

Zero Skill Tank8/23/2018, 4:10:37 PM3 votes

Why are knock-ups used instead of stuns when they are (and technically vice-versa)?

Crucial difference is that knockups break dashes. That allows for more skill-expression (as it requires good timing), and acts as a counter-measure for mobility creep.

Irelia Bot8/24/2018, 1:51:11 AM3 votes

In season 2 when knockups/backs were less common Irelia's passive grating up to 40% tenacity was actually a really nice stat to have in team fights.

However by the time Riot changed her passive form number of enemies to a matter of being out numbered that 40% was far less reliable due to knockups/knockbacks being far more common. Add in damage having slowly increased since season 2 and the impact of tenacity had been reduced.

I do think that tenacity should be in the game and should be relevant as a means of contending with high CC enemies outside of suppression.

But as it is currently ninja tabi is usually a better option than murc treads due to damage being high and tenacity being unreliable.

Frothy White Goo8/24/2018, 11:28:17 PM2 votes

pretty easy way to balance knockups....

let champions cast any spells that would not cause them to move.

treat it like a grounded effect, but dont let them move during...

that way stuns are still stuns

knockups are still knockups

Mokuto Bunshi8/23/2018, 10:57:58 PM2 votes

I think a lot of these knock ups can be kept visually but changed to work like stuns through the seldom used "Suspension" effect. A knock up that obeys tenacity essentially. It could be a good tool to allow the visual effects to remain with better counter-play. And if this somehow makes Yasuo too weak then maybe allow him to also use long enough suppressions as knock up?

Automated Riven8/23/2018, 9:26:21 PM2 votes

I am not a fan of knockups because they cannot be reliably qssed/cleansed. If they were I would be fine with the trade off of shorter duration displacements = unable to be reduced by tenacity and longer duration stuns able to be reduced.

The fact that you have to use qss and flash on half of the champions means they are too powerful. Even suppressions don't have to be flashed out of which are supposed to be the most powerful form if cc.

Tldr. Make it possible to qss/cleanse knockups and I will be fine with them being used as they are.

Rouwhorst8/24/2018, 10:58:48 AM1 votes

One significant difference between displacements and stuns I have not yet seen on this post. Displacements can interrupt dashes. Stuns can not.