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Bruiser players - What are your thoughts on Spear of Shojin & Atma's Impaler?

Kaisa Aran·8/23/2018, 7:13:55 PM·11 votes·29,920 views
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tl;dr: Bruiser players, how do you think these items would synergize with your prefrred champion(s)? For mine (Irelia) item 3161 is a viable late-game option (much better than GA) but item 3005 is stuck as a last item.

As we saw both in preseason & currently on Nexus Blitz both Spear of Shojin item 3161 & Atma's Impaler item 3005 are in testing. Both items are aimed towards juggernauts/bruisers & are intended to be viable itemization choices on SR in Season 9. This begs the question - after experimenting with them both earlier in the year & in Nexus Blitz how do bruiser players feel about the items & their potential ability to be picked up by their intended audience? The goal of this thread is to have an in-depth discussion on this topic with several toplane players providing an input on whatever champion(s) they like, though your main(s) are preferred.

Side Note - It's early to be discussing these items but I want to get some groundwork down for the future so that we (as players of champs applicable to these items) can have a good starting point to base judgement off when the items return to SR in preseason. Also - better now than never!

To start off I'll be giving my input on Irelia 's synergy with both items, sourced from 120+ games of Nexus Blitz and (among those) several attempts to properly use both items. I believe that I can provide this angle given that I've been reviewing Irelia & her kit in detail over the past few days & because I've worked hard to learn her.

#Spear of Shojin:

This item is tricky. On one hand its value is insane when used properly, you can easily dive in and utilize Dragon's Heart to be extraordinarily tanky. It's also decent itemization wise with Kindlegem being a good pickup thanks to its health + CDR. But on the other hand it doesn't feel necessary. When I'm building Irelia I usually go Trinity - Steraks - Titanic/GA/Randuins and by the time I have all of those the game is over. I could fit Spear somewhere in there but why should I? Obviously I can't get rid of Trinity or Steraks because they're core in Irelia, neither can I really get rid of Titanic since Tiamat rush is pretty huge on her right now thanks to the waveclear it provides. The only option then is to leave it until a 3rd/4th item and (by then) the game'll be over.

So to start things off - It isn't a first, second or (maybe) third item. Trinity + Steraks + Tiamat all outclass it in its potential benefit. **But what if the game goes later? Then by all means Spear is your best option. **

At first I didn't think Spear had any decent use on Irelia because GA would outclass it. However when I compared the two's stats I realized that not only does Spear beat out GA in base stats (because for Irelia health, AD & CDR > less AD + armor any day) but it also provides immense damage reduction when you're diving in, something Irelia HAS to do due to the nature of her kit. Without overcomplicating it it's a really good item for late-game, it replaces GA's niche & better rewards you with for your damage-based itemization than any tank item would. I mean, how much benefit does it really give? I'd be glad to answer that.

Irelia generally maxes out around 160-210 bonus AD in the mid-late game. If we're to work off Spear of Shojin's scaling & compromise between a mixture of the two values (180 AD) then how much damage reduction is she getting?

Base damage reduction = 20 + 10% Bonus AD (capped at 70, values tripled if within 500 range of 3+ enemy champions).

20 + (180 * 0.1) = 38 damage reduction from abilities & attacks, tripled to 114 if Dragon's Heart is active.

38 less damage per champion attack/ability may not seem like much at first but remember that you're CONSTANTLY being attacked & that the value TRIPLES when you dive into the enemy team. It stacks up pretty damn fast and before you know it you'll come off with an extra 200-300 HP while also benefiting from the item's base stats & even its reset mechanic. With that said, what would you prefer as a defensive option - Spear, which provides way more synergy w/ your kit & grants you a decent amount of damage reduction that can RESET if you do your job right, or GA which is more of a safer but less synergistic option? That depends on what you want to do in your game though I think that (even while dueling) Spear outclasses GA solely due to its base damage reduction & its base stats - all for only 100 more gold.

#Atma's Impaler:

This section will be much shorter because to be hones) this item doesn't work too well on Irelia. Why? Because while she does stack HP (Trinity gives it, Steraks gives it, Titanic & Spear both give it when you get them etc.) Atma's itself is so delayed due to the immense value of her other items that it becomes a question of 'how relevant will this item be when it only appears as a last item'? I mean I already explained above that you can't delay Trinity or Steraks, Tiamat is crucial & Spear is also of insane mid-late game value - where does Atma's, an HP-based item that works best with champs that can benefit from Overgrowth (something Irelia potentially takes in hard scaling matchups though even then you're more likely to go Unflinching or Bone Plating) fit in? It doesn't, that's the only real answer. It doesn't help that its itemization is somewhat awkward as well (Aegis + Pickaxe). So for Irelia - not the best item, only when she has everything else (especially Titanic) does it make sense.

Those are my thoughts on both items for Irelia - Spear being a better GA (though which one you want is up to you) & Atma's being okay but nowhere near being better than any of her other items, hence placing it as a last buy and the least likely to have an impact on the game. What about you guys? I can definitely see Atma's being better on champs like Urgot , Kled and DEFINITELY DrMundo for instance - how does your champ do with item 3161 & item 3005 ? I'm curious to find out!

37 Comments

Irelia Bot8/25/2018, 2:28:54 AM4 votes

Spear doesn't actually feel super broken based on trying it as Riven and Irelia.

It does however make the enemy team have to put more focus on you to kill you in a team fight.

Atma's just lacks reason currently for Irelia and Riven. Most fights are done really quickly for them and the armor and MR is too small to consider over other options. I could see juggernauts finding Atma's being a good option though due to higher base damage and often times being in longer fights.

I would really like to see what Riot thinks about both given their testing on Nexus Blitz.

Sharpest glasses8/25/2018, 11:49:12 AM2 votes

I feel like spear shouldnt have the first passive. It should only reduce damage when surrounded by three ennemies IMO.

Bârd8/25/2018, 10:34:33 AM2 votes

They're bland stat sticks, and I'm glad they didn't make it out of PBE the first time because even if they're strong and meta defining, I wouldn't want to build them.

item 3161 Take less damage. Not in a way that requires you to actively do something, or even in a way that you'd necessarily notice, just shave a little damage off of every attack you tank.

item 3005 Here's some stats. Oh you've been fighting for a few seconds? Here, have some more stats.

See what I mean?

All the core bruiser items have one thing in common: they're satisfying.

item 3078 gives you that chunk of damage on every proc. item 3071 gives you audio-visual feedback so you really feel like you're doing damage. item 3748 gives you burst and an AA reset on demand. item 3812 gives you bursts of healing on every attack.

Even if Spear/Atmas were more powerful than those items, that wouldn't make me want to buy them simply because they're boring.

Ryusaether8/25/2018, 8:38:40 AM1 votes

Oh, so I should try out Nexus Blitz then.

And I even made a thread on the items like, 30 minutes ago. I feel dumb.

I haven't tried the items, as I just discovered their existence in Blitz thanks to you, but on paper I can say that item 3005 looks really good for Juggernauts or Bruisers that can stay in combat and are snowballing (so that they can trade some base stats for the really good passive). I can see the Resolve tree being more used on these champ with Overgrowth and they can opt into their AD+HP items, get item 3005 and then going Tanky but still getting their juicy AD stat. Can't wait to build item 3083 hueh.

item 3161 looks more of a Diver's item, like Vi or RekSai will probably feel really good with it, LeeSin as well. On champs like Darius it depend if it scales off his passive bonus AD (I'm not sure because they made it not work with Jhin's stat conversions, but maybe raw bonus AD is a different thing), but he needs other items before anyway.

Speaking of which, there is a major problem for this items, that you already addressed: the length of the games. These items looks good as a 4th or later buy for most champs, and games don't usually last so long. I really can't wait to get some fixes on the game length via Turret buffs or something else (maybe just a tad bit of damage reduction, but I'm not really one of the guys too concerned about that) so that we can see where people will go with their builds and not see just the 3 core items on every champ.

Child of the Pit8/25/2018, 11:47:51 AM1 votes

They were a mistake and im glad they didn't make it out of PbE, they would have been a balance nightmare, and either are shitty or too strong, there is no possible inbetween, and if they are broken it will go like this.

Nerf Juggernauts

then Nerf New juggernaut items into shit

Juggernauts are left in the shit and forgoten.

So yeah, glad they didn't make it, even if i can imagine how good it would be in Rek'sai

DragonShea8/25/2018, 12:58:15 PM1 votes

I would have liked to have seen item 3161 have a cap that is increased by HP, meaning that HIgh AD champs might cap it fast, but they will not have as much DR as a Jugs or fighters as they build HP+AD, I also think that the DR cap increase should only scale with HP from Items to prevent champs like Cho or Sion from abusing them.

TrainerRobo8/25/2018, 2:01:42 PM1 votes

urgot desperatly needs more itemization, and I stopped playing him after realizing riot isnt going to make him better. Even if we just get one item like Atmas, it will push me into playing him again

Need Gold 4 Tent8/25/2018, 2:25:32 PM1 votes

The problem with Atma's is that it only stacks on champion/turret/monster combat. It would've been a very strong item since people have found ways to make use of conqueror and rageblade already, so if Atma's had similar mechanics, it could work the same way as those.

La Bello8/26/2018, 12:12:29 AM1 votes

item 3005 Atma's feels pretty worthless. Burst is the name of the game and I feel like if I get my hands on anyone as a fighter/juggernaut I crush them in a few seconds anyway. Sustained fights a thing of the past.

Does a simple mage/ranged/assassin actually survive over 5s in combat with Darius Kled Irelia Udyr Renekton Garen ect?

Imo the answer is a rather obvious big fat NO. Juggernauts/Fighters will demolish the squishier people within seconds which leads me to believe that Atma's is more of a anti-tank item that should be bought to give a overwhelming edge against someone like Ornn who tries to stop you from splitpushing but thats kinda silly because fighters and juggernauts ALREADY crankstomp tanks by sheer design into the mid-late which is the point where you are picking up this item.....

In other words I dont really understand the function of the item and it seems repetitive in overall design.

item 3161 on the other hand I feels really conflicting and wierd to build around. The passive is at its strongest when you go full glass cannon AD however if you do that Shojin alone is clearly not enough to keep you kicking. You have to find a way to mix in a ample amount of resist ON TOP of big AD.

item 3156 item 3026item 3139 are the only resist+AD items I can think of the last of which is a major stretch to build. I dont want to put item 3005 on the list because it wants HP related builds to work the latter of which lack HP so its kinda subpar in this build.

Anyways yeah so Shojin seems kinda lackluster. If you end up in the middle of 3 people with a build like that chances are the effect wont be strong enough to keep you alive. That leads me to believe that Shojin much like item 3508 will only end up as niche pick on VERY specific champions namely the ones who increase their own AD by ridiculous amounts Tryndamere DrMundo Darius Olaf Rengar maybe?

overall I dont think these two items are the items bruisers/fighters need. Theyre decent additions but they fail giving desirable enough qualities and traits that would make most champions deviate from current builds. Its a 4Fun item... not an actual good one.

DW Diana8/26/2018, 10:03:45 AM1 votes

All I can say is "Yey for AP!"

Śhunpo8/26/2018, 12:49:22 PM1 votes

item 3161 is broken.

item 3005 is underwhelming.

jocomotion8/26/2018, 1:51:45 PM1 votes

Sion item 3005 item 3161 item 3083 item 3068 item 3065 item 3047 Grasp, Demolish, second wind, Overgrowth, Minion Dematerializer, and free boots.

SzGamer2278/27/2018, 7:08:56 PM1 votes

Atma's Reckoning is good for juggernauts that scale well with AD but succeed when building tanky. For Darius specifically I'm not sure if it's worth taking over Titanic Hydra in a hybrid build just because the auto reset is so valuable for stacking passive, but I would never not build it on Garen as a fourth or fifth item. Since Urgot succeeds when building heavy amounts of health and AD, an item that gives resistances and turns health into AD is an excellent third item. I wouldn't use it on Illaoi because she tends to build more heavily into raw AD than the other juggernauts I play.

I haven't touched Spear of Shojin. I've been meaning to test it out but I haven't played enough to feel I could get a valid comparison of with vs. without it.

Kazoo Soloist8/28/2018, 11:59:23 PM1 votes

My gut instinct is that Spear of Shojin feels more like a generic AD item than being meant for bruisers... I would definitely be down to build it on my adcs for the insane dueling potential and survivability.

Atma's Reckoning seems lackluster in the game's current state. It's a late game item in a game that tends not to go late. If the game does go late then its fantastic. 25 AD per 1000 max HP is so strong that even an adc (who has around 2k base health max level) building it will end up getting +75 ad in prolonged fights.

Basically I think these items would be broken by AD characters in other roles picking them up and incorporating them into their item builds.

When I return to this, I'll give a sample ADC build that abuses this, breakdowns of the champions I play, and my suggestions for how the items might be tweaked to discourage being adopted by other roles.

Begin Edit:

Example ADC Build

Greaves, Shiv, IE, Spear of Shojin, Atma's Reckoning + Flex Item

Atma's Reckoning gives about +75 AD (25 base + around 50 from passive from base health at max level)

Spear of Shojin reduces 34.5 damage (not counting any ad from flex item or Dragonheart)

  • additional survivability from damage reduction from the resistances granted by Atma's Reckoning and 200 health from Atma's Reckoning.

Champion Analysis:

Bruisers that I play top: (By "Bruiser" I am referring to champions that want to duel and become tanky.) Renekton Master Yi Darius Garen Jax Warwick Sion Kled Yorick Nasus Shen (Yasuo)

Spear of Shojin has so many stats that help duel as well as being cheaper to complete than something like Hydra. You gets damage and cdr to kill the enemy faster and additional tankiness from damage reduction and bonus health. I honestly might get this item first if I want to bully the lane hard.

I might also consider it as a second item after getting some more tanky components or a more tanky item first if I need the survivability.

Notable exception is Yasuo who would get it 4th item.

Atma's Reckoning is solid, but I would only get it early with champions that have high base health and stack it easily. I might get it second or third item on Sion, Darius, Garen, Renekton, Nasus, Kled or Shen since it gives 50 AD at 1000 max hp which is really solid and you'll be hitting or past that amount of max hp around that point in the item build.

Other bruisers I would get Atma's Reckoning 4th to 6th item depending on how tanky I built early.

My old main:

Nautilus

Bruiser / Tank with Press The Attack

Spear of Shojin 3rd or 4th item (or even 2nd if you're winning that hard) would be solid to complement the autoattacks and makes you even more tanky.

Atma's Reckoning after Spear gives a ton of bonus AD and more resistances.

IdveYsUfSK8/29/2018, 7:33:09 AM1 votes

item 3005 is too weak due to how cost inefficient it is. It should be built by mid game, not as a finisher item as defense item loses so much value late in to the game. Too much damage that you still die with no extra time bought making your defense item completely worthless. But item 3005 is so inefficiently bad when built early as you still lack hp to make it worthwhile. But it scales much more stronger later.

item 3161 is insane on slayers which are slightly ahead. They can pretty much 1v5 due to how much enemy resources have to be burnt just to bring them down. Especially on Irelia Yasuo . More damage source more damage reduction, you pretty much have to do 1 shot nuke just to be able to bring them down. They are doing too much damage on top of the tankiness they receive. I would say item 3161 needs its ad lowered with health increased so they dont benefit so much from the ad scalings and autoattack boost. But both of these item should be built together for item synergy or u might as well do standard item build.

In the current state of item 3161 , i think even adc can build it along with item 3072 . Pretty much walking towers on crack.

But ranged low interaction ap nukers are still insane in this mode if they can land their skillshot properly that bruisers are still a joke with the exception of sub select meta champs called slayers. AOE team ults CD is too low in the game mode.

Alzon8/29/2018, 1:09:50 PM1 votes

Atma’s is straight busted as a third or fourth item on any champ who rushes Cleaver. When it was on the Rift in PBE, I changed my PBE name to “500 AD Tank” and spammed Darius, building Cleaver > Sterak’s > Atma’s and 1v9ing almost every game. I could often top 600 AD, and once or twice 700. Running around with 5500 HP, 650 AD, and 170 Armor/MR is just too much.

Shojin damage reduction is applied before resistances, meaning it becomes less efficient as you gain more resistances. It really feels kinda meh after Atma’s in the build above, with a tank item like Deadman’s or Visage feeling slightly more impactful. Especially in a six-item build. However, it does shine in a true carry build as sort of the inverse of Atma’s - one stacks with tank items for more damage, and the other stacks with damage items for more defenses. The best users of Shojin are those who build lots of AD and look to jump into the enemy team. Riven, Wukong, and possibly Rengar and Lee Sin will be the best users of it.

Elkington VI8/29/2018, 2:42:33 PM1 votes

SoS requires a BF sword to complete and its passive scales with bonus AD. This seems like more of a squishier fighter/diver item, something champs like Riven, Lee Sin, Jayce, and some assassins would generally make use of.

Atmas is a great bruiser item and I would love to see it return. The fact that it builds from Aegis is a great bonus and one bruisers could use to scale smoothly from mid-game to late.

Trundle SoS isn't very good on him, but Atmas serves him well, in lane or in the jungle, especially now that it builds from Aegis.

Lordk0z8/30/2018, 5:03:11 AM1 votes

item 3005's is tempting, but the shield from item 3053 and the CDR from either item 3078 or item 3071 is too important IMHO, to pass up. I take it as a 6th/situational item in games where I feel the raw AD is the most important thing to get my hands on.

LilxPaprika9/2/2018, 12:46:05 AM1 votes

Well I would like something that can give Aatrox a bit more build diversity overall.

Solidair39/4/2018, 5:25:11 PM1 votes

I enjoy the concept of these items. Bruisers should be able to remain in combat for an extended period of time and be rewarded for such and I think both of these items are really TRYING to make that a reality, it's just that burst is so heavy an fast that it's hard to make this a reality.

Shroom Merchant9/8/2018, 8:56:12 PM1 votes

when will those items be on rift or they for blitz only?

ModWuks8/25/2018, 1:03:43 AM1 votes

Approved!

gabetheguy9/10/2018, 2:33:56 AM1 votes

I've personally found spear of shojin to be better on bruisers Aatrox Irelia Jax LeeSin Kayn Renekton Vi XinZhao while atma's is better on champs such as DrMundo Darius Garen Illaoi Volibear Urgot Udyr Warwick Yorick

Sire Hippington8/25/2018, 2:51:45 AM1 votes

Both items feel rather underwhelming.

Spear is ok on assasins and skirmirshers as late item, but actuall bruisers usually don't get enough bonus ad to really get that much value from it, and often can't get a kill within the 6sec window, or they get CCed/kited befor they can get off that AA to proc dragons heart anyway. What most people forget is that the reduction from sojin unlike most other flat reductions is applied BEFORE other damage reduction, so it has poor synergie with other defensive stats. Actually, i think in most cases, Death's Dance would be a superior pickup, the combination of lifesteal and damage-delay can keep you alive quite efficiently. I'd prefer it haveing less ad-scaleing but appling after all other reductions so it works better with more defensive builts rather than something that a glasscannon can get as 5th/6th item to be less squishy. wouldn't mind it loosing some raw ad aswell if we therefor have some more noticable damage-reduction. For me it feels like it should be more off an defensive pickup, similar to steraks, not an off item that has some defense.

For athmas, maybe if damage finally is adressed and fights last longer, but else the delay on the damage totally kills it, and even then stacked, the stats are not that impressive for most bruisers...maybe if it built from raptors and gave regen+pointrunner and/or maybe some extra defstats vs multiple opponents. Compared to guinsoos, which for melees usually stacks up much fater than 5sec, it gives just less face-value in stats and that is even without the very powerfull phantom hit and the aditional mixed on-hit damage, so it really feels like the payoff for the stacking time just isn't there.

PiggyTheAstro8/25/2018, 8:08:18 AM1 votes

Atma's is powerful on Sion and Cho who usually end up with 5k+ hp. Otherwise, it's kinda meh imo.

Currently testing Spear on lighter bruisers like Camille and Xin, so far it's working out really well