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The Tank meta complaint and my idea of alleviating it, would you guys be okay with...

nfzeta·1/9/2019, 3:53:23 PM·4 votes·11,312 views

My idea is simple... I hope that Riot brings back % Current Health Damage and makes it a prevalent damage type for tanks.

Edit: Add Note, seemingly there has be a bit of confusion but this is basically a change in a bid to get tanks back into the meta without either making them SUPER tanky and 100% unkillable, giving them too much damage or giving them even more and/or longer, reliable cc. The current health damage is just my idea for making a change to them which would make it easier to make them useful without being overpowered.

I hope we can agree that what most people - other than those who like playing the tanks during their strong phase - hate about the tank meta is that while they're super tanky they also do a seemingly unfair amount of damage, while also keeping their utility.

Now I feel this problem is brought about in large by few things.

  1. % Max Health Dmg - This damage type is pretty versatile and because of that its taken over the tank world as a means for tanks to duel other tanks while still doing damage to squishy characters. The problem arises here when tanks are tanky enough that their % health damage is enough that as long as they live for more than one rotation they still take away most of anyone's health.
  2. High base damages - This one is fairly self explanatory and base damages on tanks in general is something of a constant struggle as you have to keep rebalancing them around current overall tankiness or damage in-game.
  3. Damage tied to tankiness - Now this one I'm not prepared to cover in-depth in this post but that could be said to be arguably the #1 cause, especially when paired with my first stated contributing factor.

Now a champion that could have been said to try this method of damage and failed is Ornn . However I believe it wasn't given its fair shake. As those playing during that time would know the problem with Ornn was that his current health damage was inconsistent to the point that at full health you would do a good amount of damage to your opponent but as they got low and you were in an extended trade its damage was reduced to next to nothing as 20% of 2000HP is peanuts next to 20% of 50HP.

The Easier Option (with some drawbacks) Here I think would just be to give most current health dmg abilities a nice minimum damage threshold, this would at least prevent things from getting to ridiculous levels of variance in damage, to the point the low point is pretty much a waste of an ability in terms of damage. This would therefore still give them a chance in a duel situation. The drawbacks would be that you end up with a similar base damage balancing problem, it would just be a minimum damage balance issue.

The Extensive Option Now this would be to change most % current health dmg abilities to have a secondary utility effect of some kind once the opposing champion falls below a certain actual health value. This additional utility effect would also interact with the other abilities to shore up damage. In Ornn's case it could be that the Bellows Breath (w) on low health champions would immediately proc the brittle it applies therefore augmenting both damage and utility.

In the case of a champ like Sejuani, although it would probably need additional changes her perma-frost could be the additional effect at low % current health values and it would allow her other base damage abilities to do more. Another obvious hiccup with this option is that it would require yet another tank update.

Overall both options still would require players to get used to this type of damage, something that may bring about dissatisfaction, I do think we can try it though as it would cement tanks as the engage and playing field levellers without just totally killing all targets one by one as their initial damage would be high but then it would actually be better to spread your attention as a tank, both peeling and doing damage.

Now to finish, my question is this. Now would you guys be okay with such a current health damage system for tanks? If not what do you think needs to change about %current health for it to seem fun to play or what other ideas do you have for changing tanks in terms of their damage systems?

29 Comments

CoolKnightST1/14/2019, 3:10:04 PM5 votes

Their are many issues with tanks. But my biggest concerned is how tanks have evolved over the years and how the champions as a whole changed:

Back the in early days tanks used to be one of the only classes (beside supports) that have an decent amount of cc in their kit. Let's just look into the champions that where released in 2009 with the role they are currently playing the most on:

  • Supports: Fiddlesticks, Alistar, Morgana, Soraka, Taric, Janna, Blitzcrank
  • Mid: Annie, Twisted Fate, Zilean, Karthus, Anivia, Veigar, Kassadin, Katarina, Corki
  • Botlane: Ashe, Sivir, Tristana, Twitch, Heimerdinger
  • Jungle: Master Yi, Nunu, Warwick, Evelynn, Amumu, Rammus, Shaco
  • Top: Jax, Kayle, Ryze, Sion, Teemo, Singed, Tryndamere, Cho'Gath, Gangplank, Malphite, Dr. Mundo, Nasus

I crossed out the champions that where reworked while giving them (in most case) more cc to give an better overview of the situation. Back in the early days. Their was cc but overal when cc was used their was a lot more downtime to it. If we would have an cc score back in 2009 the average champion would score haf of what he get's right now. The game evolved for the better but as a result this created problems for the game ballance. Cdr needed to be buffed and what used to be power semi ultimate abilities are now karthus Q's you spam with your eyes closed. If whe would have urf in 2009. We would play the game how it is today.

Because cc became that common more & more defensive items had to be introduced and even non support/tank that had cc in their kit. I must say that riot managed to keep cc relative ballanced until 2012. But that year everything changed. With the release of Hecarim, (Jayce), (Zyra), Syndra, Elise, Vi. The road was open for other classes to be stacked with cc in their kit.

On 2012-02-14 that Vanguard (ex Jungler, support) Nautilus was released. That claimed the title of the king of cc. This was a champion that had a Passive, Q and R that provided hard cc and a E with soft cc. Back that this was something really unique for a champion. Not a single champion could even dream about having this amount. Now let's seen some competition:

  • Zac rework
  • Alistar rework
  • Zac rework
  • Maokai rework
  • Ornn
  • Camille

O I still known the day they released Ekko do you?

Overal to get towards the point I try to make: The average cc a champion is able todo has been cast over a periode of time has been increased to a point it's not longer unique for a non support/tank to have it. And as a result their decreased value forces them into directions outside their own design.

C0LdBLooDeD1/12/2019, 10:45:41 PM3 votes

Sorry to ask and no offense but what game are you playing?

The Tank meta died many seasons ago.If you have noticed riot slowly changes all kind of tanks to damage dealers with a bit higher defensive stats. Current pure tanks already struggle to survive 1 single encounter.They have less cc,less regen,less health than their previous versions and more damage. For my guess your problem is certain bruisers that ditch out huge damage while having big shields or healing options and are difficult to deal with. Tanks aren't there to ditch damage they have no need to this king of thing.They need good cc,some form of sustain/shielding themselves and heavy migration.They initiate and protect the team.But currently that's hardly a ting nowadays

And bork is a core item for almost all adc that melts tanks.Mages have their liaras torment.Binding % damage types to abilities just gives the option gives damage in exchange for something useful.

So no i don't think that tanks need that.They only need good base damage in their damaging abilities,with very low scaling but moderate if its health/armor/magic resist.

TakaDama1/13/2019, 2:41:25 PM2 votes

As far as a Tank meta vs Carry meta goes, I believe it should be simply a matter of when a Carry's ability to kill a Tank is better than the Tank'd ability to kill the Carry in a single match. Carries are supposed to the best in sustained damage output and objective control outside the jungle after a certain point, but until then are somewhat reliant on their support and ganks to do well. Tanks on the other hand always maintain some form of utility in the form of CC/Engage/Peel even if their durability doesnt outlast the carry's survivability.

Unfortunately, carries can't get the items needed to hit their power spike if they are constantly bursted down by assassins and certain mages (especially now with towers the way they are); to that effect, maybe increasing the base stat scaling of carries could be an option, or somehow allowing more gold to enter the carry's pocket until a certain item threshold (like until first tier 3 item, passive gold income is doubled or something more reasonable). Of course the latter would require a fourth part to each rune page or elsewhere; but it may be useful outside of carries.

Daddy Ants1/19/2019, 2:04:30 PM2 votes

In my opinion the only classes that should be killing Tanks are Fighters and Marksmen.

Mages and Assassin's in my opinion should not be shredding tanks.

Changes I'd make to Penetration is as follows -

 

item 3020 - Magic Penetration reduced from 18 to 15.

item 3135 -
Magic Penetration reduced to 35% from 40%. Cost increased to 2750 gold from 2650 gold. AP increased to 75 from 70.

item 3071 + item 3380 Health Increased to 450 from 400. Item can now only be purchased by Melee champions. Armor reduction increased to 5% per stack from 4% per stack but now only applies to the Item Holder's damage.

item 3036 Cost Reduced to 2700 gold from 2800 gold. Item can now only be purchased on Ranged champions.

item 3033 Cost Reduced to 2700 gold from 2800 gold.

I didn't make Mortal Reminder ranged only as there's situations where a Bruiser or Assassin needs access to anti-healing items.

I also believe as Armor is easier to stack, Armor Penetration items should be cheaper than Magic Penetration.

By the time a Tank has around 300 armor, they usually have like 100 MR at most.

Galiö1/14/2019, 10:09:15 PM2 votes

I dont think their base damage is the issue.

I think the way champions mitigate damage and the crowd control they offer are too similar, generalist, or boring.

Items either make them unkillable and the tanks passively kill you over time and you have no agency against them or they just sit there and do nothing but get sporadically super tanky off short cooldowns.

Damage Reduction and shields are very generic and do well with health items.

Now we got a ton of runes that function mostly around health.

So it's a layered issue

DR and Sheilds suck to deal with, health sucks to deal with, everything and its mother scales with health.

Also most tank items that dont revolve around health sucks, and even if they were strong almost everyone has high %health damage now, true dmg, easy options for true damage, and irelia who cuts shields and can get conqueror.

Edit: I also think the way they are making tanks squisher in a meta that already doesnt have durable people already kinda sucks and they just add more damage in this power creep standard. Which sucks on top of sucks, for 'tanks'.

1 Wing2/20/2019, 3:24:36 PM1 votes

Let me tldr your opening statment:

You want their to be tanks, designed to shred tanks: this will bring tanks back.

Neeko will bring the tanks back.

Oh, I'm sorry, it's Poppy. Poppy is a strong tank. Come on, Neeko though: lets go! I love Neeko so much. I just love Neeko

Poppy is a valid tank. Have you tried Poppy? [please, switch Poppy and Tristan's names; or give us more lore around here]

hallajuice1/18/2019, 5:57:34 PM1 votes

they could fix the problem by making all tanks get less damage as they level up and more defenses post level 10.

Gramps691/18/2019, 7:24:26 PM1 votes

I think another thing they could do to improve the tank experience is removing some of the CDR from mage's kits and bruiser's kits. Additionally, lower mana-regen and mana restore options and remove the 500 mana from the Lost Chapter item line. Less CDR for mage and bruiser rotations means less damage overall since they won't have cooldowns up and their ults take longer to come back online after being used. Less mana regen and mana restore options (this would be changed so that it's more noticeable in midgame, lane phase should still have similar mana regen rates imo) would mean that mages have to be more conscious of how they manage their mana, or need to invest in mana regen items (Archangels, RoA, if Rito would buff Athene's so mages could use it again that would be fantastic).

LordGeovanni1/26/2019, 2:28:47 AM1 votes

I dont like the idea of % damage for tanks at all current and max hp damage belongs on mages designed to do dot not tanks. In my opinion tanks should have high base damage mid tier scaling spells. the thing is spells arent considered high tier scaling unless they are 120% ap scaling so 70% ap scaling isnt bad for tanks because mages cry not being able to do damage when they get that much scaling other wise tanks can get 40-50% ap scalings when mages drop to 70-90% for the most part. instead of large 100-120% scalings while mages have 800+ap easily while getting armor magic resist cooldown reduction and health.. Tanks should be able to do damage to other tanks but adcs assassins and mages shouldnt be able to get out scott free being caught by a tank. tank items should be better so that fighters can beat tanks by building damage again while having some durability.

ModAttysu The Poro1/11/2019, 10:23:22 PM1 votes

Approved! <3